MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[WUPHF]

Admittedly, I still hold a grudge over the blown halfcourt violation in the second round last season.  The Bears had mounted a big comeback and were down by only one late in the game.  IWU lost control of the ball, but it was called off Tim Cooney and the possession was handed back to the Titans.  The Titans then got an improbably three from the big guy with headband and the rest was history.

Probably the worst call I had seen all season in an otherwise good season of officiating.  Very easy to see on the video.  No IWU fan disputed in when I mentioned it twice last season.

Did the better team win that night?  Absolutely...without a doubt!  Will I always remember the one blown call?  Absolutely!

My point is this: there are all kinds of fans and if someone explains away a game with the one blown call narrative, well that is OK. 

[Gregory Sager]

Sager, all that is fine and well, make- up call or not, "a foul that should never called with 8 seconds left" or not, the fact remains...the call on Huskey was atrocious and robbed Webster of the chance to win. It was embarrassing finish to an otherwise great game.

I agree. It was a bad call, and it cost Webster a final chance to win the game.

But the point is that Webster shouldn't have had that possession in the first place. Ettner should've been called for being out-of-bounds when he caught that endline pass from Ward, which would've given the ball to IWU with :08 left. The whole final eight seconds would've played out differently if the refs had made that call on the Webster throw-in after Overstreet's second made free throw.

[Denny McKinney]

I thought my year was done. But, will not be accused of signing off to hide. All I heard discussed was calls evened out, on the CCIW Board. My Beef is we should see better at this point of the season. Like the crew that called the Calvin vs. Wash U game. Never heard make up, evened out or anything. I've said enough. The officiating at this level is horrible and are being paid $600+ a crew for 2 hours work. In any other profession they could not make this kind of money with most of their job performances. And, all we do is say, "oh well". Now I'll let others finish my point.

The On Demand of the IWU/Webster game is here - http://client.stretchinternet.com/client/iwu.portal#
* (2:03:00) Gorkoks up 70-69 with 0:08 to play, IWU's Dylan Overstreet drives into the lane.  Webster's Adam Letter is whistled for a reaching in foul.  This one is hard to see on the video, but based on where Etter is when the call is made (on Overstreet's right hip, chasing, and reaching in), it looks like a foul. Almost simultaneously, Overstreet is contacted by Jarrod Huskey as he attempts to pass to Brady Zimmer on the right wing...Huskey is moving forward into Overstreet.  I feel pretty confident Dylan Overstreet was fouled on this play.  Overstreet makes both FTs.

No dog in the fight here.

Dylan was trying to create something, but the defense collapsed on him such that he really had no good place to go with it.  I definitely don't see that Huskey was moving forward into Overstreet, looked pretty set to me.  But that good move results in Dylan stopping and looking for something else.  The way the game was being called, one could argue that it might've been a charge- BUT I'm glad that contact went as a no call.  On Etters attempt to strip the ball, it looked fairly clean to me based solely on the view that the ball went down(which usually means the defender got mostly ball).  In any case, I didn't like the call because it resulted in a bit of a 'bailout call' in the face of good solid D.  Should have been a no call also in my opinion.

On the inbounds play, yes looked like a clear violation to me although I, like others, don't know if the specific rule gives latitude there. I will say that I've seen that done in dozens of games, in less dire circumstances, and it's never called.  Interestingly, the same ref who didn't call that was the same ref who blew the whistle 4 secs later on

. . . the Huskey illegal screen with 4 secs, watched it several times and I don't see any evidence of Huskey not being set.  Tough to discern if Huskey's left shoulder moved, but I didn't see any sway that suggested he moved his whole body to impeded Zimmer.  Thus I don't believe that was the right call no matter what the situation, and it was unfortunate that it was called with so much on the line late in a game.   

I thought that the bad calls basically evened out down the stretch. I admit that I didn't get a good look at that last illegal-screen foul that was called on Webster that more or less decided the game.[/color]

One is a poster I don't know. One is a Legend. Read the Red parts. It appears they make my point of the make up calls and there importance. The same referee.

I re-watched the video clips.  I though the calls on Ahmad smith and overstreet were consistent with the way the game was called.  Both were fouls to me.  The offensive call against Webster looks like a bad call.  I just don't see enough from Huskey to warrant the call.  He has his feet set and his arms inside his frame. That looks decidedly different than block call agains VD and the reach in/block by Etter/Huskey.  My two cents.

So throw out everything until the final 8 seconds

I'll now label the official's call on the Jarrod Huskey screen as irresponsible... one of the worst I've ever seen in the final seconds of a game..  Huskey's feet were set, his hands were in and down in a protective position... he leaned slightly, but that didn't play a role, there was going to be enough contact to take Zimmer out of defensive position anyway....the call simply should not have been made... It robbed everyone, Webster and IWU fans alike, of seeing a game deciding shot, win or lose....as YJack will tell you, I don't yell at refs, I'm decidedly against that behavior.. but heck, that's one where the players should have decided the outcome... instead the man with the stripes did.. I'm afraid I would have been yelling til the lights went out at the Shirk on that one...

One CCIW and one SLIAC. Who is held in higher regards then me. Sager stated the obvious above in Red. The other two saw the same thing I did. It is simple. DIII basketball was tarnished this year because of the good old boy, same guys for 30 years, no consequences officiating that we have come to just EXCEPT. Why? (we see the homer jobs every nite in non. conference games) BUT, Why at this point of the season? When young men, who are paying well to play, careers are on the line. Hollis Edwards and Jarrod Huskey do not get another chance, EVER. These clowns will be officiating well past the time, people won't be able to remember the kids performances. I THOUGHT THIS DIV III WAS SUPPOSE TO BE SPECIAL. It's not. It's the same thing you see in HS gyms across the country on any nite. That's my point. Only Point. Now I'll try to concentrate on a two nephew's baseball seasons. Everyone enjoy your tournament.

I had to add: This coming from someone who had a dog in the race for a long time. I won't anymore. But, I was gifted with a story book life. I've seen the game from every angle. AD, Committee member for about 8 years. (logged a ton of trips StL to IND over nite and back for practice. We're talking huge frequent flier points that He and Mom used for several European life trips. PERKS.) Sorry. And, Head Coach. I can add positions views of asst. coach, SID, Sports PR. Committee rep. who voted and battled the WIAC in region cross country. Women's XC and Track coach...............! I've seen it.

Listen to what he told me at the end. "Son! I'm telling ya. It doesn't have to be this way. These kids and their parents pay tons of money to play for ME. THEY DESERVE THE BEST. But, everybody complains but no one will make waves. But, THEY SHOULD!"[/b]They should Oh. TRY TAKING a look it at. This is coming from someone who coached in 7 different Decades. Wasn't an ESPN Legend. but, may have got more respect then some.
But he did average about 16 wins for 50 straight years. From 1959 - 2011 he never missed a game. 1425.

And, Lived his Life to the fullest. He told about 200 different kids the exact same statement at some point and time, "Don't Ever cheat the Game. Basketball gave me this Life I love '. Most all his kids heard his story of living in 12 different houses in his last 8 years of school at St. Clair HS. He had a ton of the same kids from the same area come thru FU.

The history is for entertainment value. But please re read my Dad's statement about officiating.

[oldknight]

* (2:04:40) Gorloks up 70-69 with 0:08 to play.  IWU's Dylan Overstreet makes 2 FTs.  On the in-bounds, Webster may have gotten away with a turnover.  Hunter Ward in-bounds to a player who is in-bounds heading back out-of-bounds.  He seems to catch it in the air in-bounds and land out-of-bounds.  I'm honestly not sure what the rules are on this.

--I'm not certain about my answer on the inbounds play. Technically, it's a turnover but I also know that officials seem to typically interpret it in such a way that if the first player to grab the ball after a made basket or FT was not trying to inbound it (only handing it to the player who is supposed to inbound it) then it's a judgment call by the official. If that speculation is correct, the first "pass" really wasn't a pass and can be ignored. One of my closest friends is a high school and college ref and I'll see him at church tomorrow and find out how that is ruled.

I talked to my friend and he says going by the book it was a rules violation and the ball should have been awarded to IWU, though he admits it isn't always called. He was interested to know if the first player merely handed the ball to the second or if it was passed in the air to the second Webster player. He likened the way most refs handle this call to the phantom tag at second base on a double play ball which seems to be more of area call. How much leeway are you going to give? Interestingly, he said that most refs would likely hold closer to the letter of the law if the stakes were higher (such as the end of a close game). That surprised me since I expected him to say the opposite.

That's one refs perspective for the FWIW Dept.

[Gregory Sager]

The On Demand of the IWU/Webster game is here - http://client.stretchinternet.com/client/iwu.portal#
* (2:03:00) Gorkoks up 70-69 with 0:08 to play, IWU's Dylan Overstreet drives into the lane.  Webster's Adam Letter is whistled for a reaching in foul.  This one is hard to see on the video, but based on where Etter is when the call is made (on Overstreet's right hip, chasing, and reaching in), it looks like a foul. Almost simultaneously, Overstreet is contacted by Jarrod Huskey as he attempts to pass to Brady Zimmer on the right wing...Huskey is moving forward into Overstreet.  I feel pretty confident Dylan Overstreet was fouled on this play.  Overstreet makes both FTs.

No dog in the fight here.

Dylan was trying to create something, but the defense collapsed on him such that he really had no good place to go with it.  I definitely don't see that Huskey was moving forward into Overstreet, looked pretty set to me.  But that good move results in Dylan stopping and looking for something else.  The way the game was being called, one could argue that it might've been a charge- BUT I'm glad that contact went as a no call.  On Etters attempt to strip the ball, it looked fairly clean to me based solely on the view that the ball went down(which usually means the defender got mostly ball).  In any case, I didn't like the call because it resulted in a bit of a 'bailout call' in the face of good solid D.  Should have been a no call also in my opinion.

On the inbounds play, yes looked like a clear violation to me although I, like others, don't know if the specific rule gives latitude there. I will say that I've seen that done in dozens of games, in less dire circumstances, and it's never called.  Interestingly, the same ref who didn't call that was the same ref who blew the whistle 4 secs later on

. . . the Huskey illegal screen with 4 secs, watched it several times and I don't see any evidence of Huskey not being set.  Tough to discern if Huskey's left shoulder moved, but I didn't see any sway that suggested he moved his whole body to impeded Zimmer.  Thus I don't believe that was the right call no matter what the situation, and it was unfortunate that it was called with so much on the line late in a game.   

I thought that the bad calls basically evened out down the stretch. I admit that I didn't get a good look at that last illegal-screen foul that was called on Webster that more or less decided the game.[/color]

One is a poster I don't know. One is a Legend. Read the Red parts. It appears they make my point of the make up calls and there importance. The same referee.

I'll say it again, Denny: Refs don't make up for a missed call that they didn't see, especially if they have no way of knowing at the time that it was a missed call. Watch the video again. Freeze the frame at 2:05:01. The short ref -- and you're right, it's the same ref that called the foul on Huskey five seconds later -- is screened by Ward coming in bounds as Etter is jumping out of bounds. The short ref has no way of seeing both Etter's hands catching the ball and Etter's feet stepping on the endline, because Ward is blocking his view of Etter. He can't make a call there, because he has no way of gauging whether it was a legal throw-in or not.

We, on the other hand, have an angle that allows us to see Etter touching the ball before his feet landed. Heck, Bob's even screen-captured it and posted it here yesterday morning. (I think that his screen capture is from 2:05:00.) In fact, if you replay the video and freeze it at that fatal second -- 2:05:01 -- you can see Illinois Wesleyan's #45 (Mike Mayberger) rising up off the bench and pointing his finger across the floor at Etter. The arm of an unidentified person on IWU's bench to Mayberger's right is also pointing at Etter. And the IWU play-by-play guy immediately stated that Ron Rose was calling for an illegal throw-in on the play.

But all of us -- video viewers, Mayberger, Mayberger's neighbor, Coach Rose -- had the right angle to see the play. The short ref didn't. And he was the one with the whistle, which means that his view -- or non-view -- was the only one that mattered.

(I feel like a member of the Warren Commission dissecting every frame of the Zapruder film of JFK's assassination. )

The illegal screen called on Huskey with :03 left wasn't a make-up call. It was just a plain ol' garden-variety bad call. There was no conspiracy, no slick good-ol'-boy-network ripoff, no reason for paranoia. The ref made a bad call that existed all by its lonesome, plain and simple. It's a shame that it happened, and my personal view is that Webster fans have a valid case in complaining about that call. But that call was not made in a conscious effort to rip off Huskey or Edwards or Webster in general or to reward Illinois Wesleyan so as to satisfy some mysterious D3 pecking order.

[Gregory Sager]

* (2:04:40) Gorloks up 70-69 with 0:08 to play.  IWU's Dylan Overstreet makes 2 FTs.  On the in-bounds, Webster may have gotten away with a turnover.  Hunter Ward in-bounds to a player who is in-bounds heading back out-of-bounds.  He seems to catch it in the air in-bounds and land out-of-bounds.  I'm honestly not sure what the rules are on this.

--I'm not certain about my answer on the inbounds play. Technically, it's a turnover but I also know that officials seem to typically interpret it in such a way that if the first player to grab the ball after a made basket or FT was not trying to inbound it (only handing it to the player who is supposed to inbound it) then it's a judgment call by the official. If that speculation is correct, the first "pass" really wasn't a pass and can be ignored. One of my closest friends is a high school and college ref and I'll see him at church tomorrow and find out how that is ruled.

I talked to my friend and he says going by the book it was a rules violation and the ball should have been awarded to IWU, though he admits it isn't always called. He was interested to know if the first player merely handed the ball to the second or if it was passed in the air to the second Webster player. He likened the way most refs handle this call to the phantom tag at second base on a double play ball which seems to be more of area call. How much leeway are you going to give? Interestingly, he said that most refs would likely hold closer to the letter of the law if the stakes were higher (such as the end of a close game). That surprised me since I expected him to say the opposite.

That's one refs perspective for the FWIW Dept.

It wasn't a handoff. It was a lateral pass of about six feet. As I said, Bob screen-captured it and posted the picture in this room yesterday at 11:52 am. His picture appears to be from 2:05:00 in the archived game video; the incident takes place at 2:05:00 and 2:05:01.

(Incidentally, the unidentified player to Mayberger's right ended up being #55, Nick Anderson. He stands up a second or two later to yell at the ref about the illegal throw-in.)

The "area call" from baseball is a good analogy, but in this case it's evident from the video that the problem was that the ref was screened by the original ballhandler on the throw-in, Hunter Ward. The violation just seemed too obvious for it to fall under the "area call" rubric, even if the ref had seen it properly.

[Denny McKinney]

We, on the other hand, have an angle that allows us to see Etter touching the ball before his feet landed. Heck, Bob's even screen-captured it and posted it here yesterday morning. (I think that his screen capture is from 2:05:00.) In fact, if you replay the video and freeze it at that fatal second -- 2:05:01 -- you can see Illinois Wesleyan's #45 (Mike Mayberger) rising up off the bench and pointing his finger across the floor at Etter. The arm of an unidentified person on IWU's bench to Mayberger's right is also pointing at Etter. And the IWU play-by-play guy immediately stated that Ron Rose was calling for an illegal throw-in on the play.

But all of us -- video viewers, Mayberger, Mayberger's neighbor, Coach Rose -- had the right angle to see the play. The short ref didn't. And he was the one with the whistle, which means that his view -- or non-view -- was the only one that mattered.

(I feel like a member of the Warren Commission dissecting every frame of the Zapruder film of JFK's assassination. )

Greg. He heard from all those you mentioned with the better angle. LOUDLY. I'm surprised he didn't spit his whistle out. It was a oh sh*t moment. I personaly don't know if I could refocus and decide to make a call. I don't care.

They deserve better Greg. I just think they deserve better. But, no one gets it.

[Denny McKinney]

I thought my year was done. But, will not be accused of signing off to hide. All I heard discussed was calls evened out, on the CCIW Board. My Beef is we should see better at this point of the season. Like the crew that called the Calvin vs. Wash U game. Never heard make up, evened out or anything. I've said enough. The officiating at this level is horrible and are being paid $600+ a crew for 2 hours work. In any other profession they could not make this kind of money with most of their job performances. And, all we do is say, "oh well". Now I'll let others finish my point.

The On Demand of the IWU/Webster game is here - http://client.stretchinternet.com/client/iwu.portal#
* (2:03:00) Gorkoks up 70-69 with 0:08 to play, IWU's Dylan Overstreet drives into the lane.  Webster's Adam Letter is whistled for a reaching in foul.  This one is hard to see on the video, but based on where Etter is when the call is made (on Overstreet's right hip, chasing, and reaching in), it looks like a foul. Almost simultaneously, Overstreet is contacted by Jarrod Huskey as he attempts to pass to Brady Zimmer on the right wing...Huskey is moving forward into Overstreet.  I feel pretty confident Dylan Overstreet was fouled on this play.  Overstreet makes both FTs.

No dog in the fight here.

Dylan was trying to create something, but the defense collapsed on him such that he really had no good place to go with it.  I definitely don't see that Huskey was moving forward into Overstreet, looked pretty set to me.  But that good move results in Dylan stopping and looking for something else.  The way the game was being called, one could argue that it might've been a charge- BUT I'm glad that contact went as a no call.  On Etters attempt to strip the ball, it looked fairly clean to me based solely on the view that the ball went down(which usually means the defender got mostly ball).  In any case, I didn't like the call because it resulted in a bit of a 'bailout call' in the face of good solid D.  Should have been a no call also in my opinion.

On the inbounds play, yes looked like a clear violation to me although I, like others, don't know if the specific rule gives latitude there. I will say that I've seen that done in dozens of games, in less dire circumstances, and it's never called.  Interestingly, the same ref who didn't call that was the same ref who blew the whistle 4 secs later on

. . . the Huskey illegal screen with 4 secs, watched it several times and I don't see any evidence of Huskey not being set.  Tough to discern if Huskey's left shoulder moved, but I didn't see any sway that suggested he moved his whole body to impeded Zimmer.  Thus I don't believe that was the right call no matter what the situation, and it was unfortunate that it was called with so much on the line late in a game.   

I thought that the bad calls basically evened out down the stretch. I admit that I didn't get a good look at that last illegal-screen foul that was called on Webster that more or less decided the game.[/color]

One is a poster I don't know. One is a Legend. Read the Red parts. It appears they make my point of the make up calls and there importance. The same referee.

I re-watched the video clips.  I though the calls on Ahmad smith and overstreet were consistent with the way the game was called.  Both were fouls to me.  The offensive call against Webster looks like a bad call.  I just don't see enough from Huskey to warrant the call.  He has his feet set and his arms inside his frame. That looks decidedly different than block call agains VD and the reach in/block by Etter/Huskey.  My two cents.

So throw out everything until the final 8 seconds

I'll now label the official's call on the Jarrod Huskey screen as irresponsible... one of the worst I've ever seen in the final seconds of a game..  Huskey's feet were set, his hands were in and down in a protective position... he leaned slightly, but that didn't play a role, there was going to be enough contact to take Zimmer out of defensive position anyway....the call simply should not have been made... It robbed everyone, Webster and IWU fans alike, of seeing a game deciding shot, win or lose....as YJack will tell you, I don't yell at refs, I'm decidedly against that behavior.. but heck, that's one where the players should have decided the outcome... instead the man with the stripes did.. I'm afraid I would have been yelling til the lights went out at the Shirk on that one...

One CCIW and one SLIAC. Who is held in higher regards then me. Sager stated the obvious above in Red. The other two saw the same thing I did. It is simple. DIII basketball was tarnished this year because of the good old boy, same guys for 30 years, no consequences officiating that we have come to just EXCEPT. Why? (we see the homer jobs every nite in non. conference games) BUT, Why at this point of the season? When young men, who are paying well to play, careers are on the line. Hollis Edwards and Jarrod Huskey do not get another chance, EVER. These clowns will be officiating well past the time, people won't be able to remember the kids performances. I THOUGHT THIS DIV III WAS SUPPOSE TO BE SPECIAL. It's not. It's the same thing you see in HS gyms across the country on any nite. That's my point. Only Point. Now I'll try to concentrate on a two nephew's baseball seasons. Everyone enjoy your tournament.

I had to add: This coming from someone who had a dog in the race for a long time. I won't anymore. But, I was gifted with a story book life. I've seen the game from every angle. AD, Committee member for about 8 years. (logged a ton of trips StL to IND over nite and back for practice. We're talking huge frequent flier points that He and Mom used for several European life trips. PERKS.) Sorry. And, Head Coach. I can add positions views of asst. coach, SID, Sports PR. Committee rep. who voted and battled the WIAC in region cross country. Women's XC and Track coach...............! I've seen it.

Listen to what he told me at the end. "Son! I'm telling ya. It doesn't have to be this way. These kids and their parents pay tons of money to play for ME. THEY DESERVE THE BEST. But, everybody complains but no one will make waves. But, THEY SHOULD!"[/b]They should Oh. TRY TAKING a look it at. This is coming from someone who coached in 7 different Decades. Wasn't an ESPN Legend. but, may have got more respect then some.
But he did average about 16 wins for 50 straight years. From 1959 - 2011 he never missed a game. 1425.

And, Lived his Life to the fullest. He told about 200 different kids the exact same statement at some point and time, "Don't Ever cheat the Game. Basketball gave me this Life I love '. Most all his kids heard his story of living in 12 different houses in his last 8 years of school at St. Clair HS. He had a ton of the same kids from the same area come thru FU.

The history is for entertainment value. But please re read my Dad's statement about officiating.

[Titan Q]

Denny, regarding the conspiracy theory you continue to advance (involving the "good ole boys", "The Man", etc)...

* Who is behind it, any why?

* What advantage do those behind the conspiracy enjoy by helping "power" teams like IWU win?

* Why did they allow Hope to lose at home Friday and accept an empty house for Wheaton vs Penn State-Behrend (while they wanted to make sure IWU won Friday for a big crowd Saturday vs SNC)?  Seems they were inconsistent with their handling of Friday.

* Why has IWU played in 8 sectionals since 1996-97 ('98 at UW-Platteville, '01 at Chicago, '03 at Randolph-Macon, '04 at Wooster, '06 at Lawrence, '10 at UW-Stevens Point, '12 at Wooster, '13 at North Central) while never being awarded the right to host before today?  Wouldn't they want IWU to host more sectionals? 

* Why do they keep making IWU go on the road in the tournament to play #1 and #2 ranked teams in early rounds?  Wouldn't they want IWU to have an easier road to Salem?


The truth is out there.  Help me find it.

[Denny McKinney]

The On Demand of the IWU/Webster game is here - http://client.stretchinternet.com/client/iwu.portal#
* (2:03:00) Gorkoks up 70-69 with 0:08 to play, IWU's Dylan Overstreet drives into the lane.  Webster's Adam Letter is whistled for a reaching in foul.  This one is hard to see on the video, but based on where Etter is when the call is made (on Overstreet's right hip, chasing, and reaching in), it looks like a foul. Almost simultaneously, Overstreet is contacted by Jarrod Huskey as he attempts to pass to Brady Zimmer on the right wing...Huskey is moving forward into Overstreet.  I feel pretty confident Dylan Overstreet was fouled on this play.  Overstreet makes both FTs.

No dog in the fight here.

Dylan was trying to create something, but the defense collapsed on him such that he really had no good place to go with it.  I definitely don't see that Huskey was moving forward into Overstreet, looked pretty set to me.  But that good move results in Dylan stopping and looking for something else.  The way the game was being called, one could argue that it might've been a charge- BUT I'm glad that contact went as a no call.  On Etters attempt to strip the ball, it looked fairly clean to me based solely on the view that the ball went down(which usually means the defender got mostly ball).  In any case, I didn't like the call because it resulted in a bit of a 'bailout call' in the face of good solid D.  Should have been a no call also in my opinion.

On the inbounds play, yes looked like a clear violation to me although I, like others, don't know if the specific rule gives latitude there. I will say that I've seen that done in dozens of games, in less dire circumstances, and it's never called.  Interestingly, the same ref who didn't call that was the same ref who blew the whistle 4 secs later on

. . . the Huskey illegal screen with 4 secs, watched it several times and I don't see any evidence of Huskey not being set.  Tough to discern if Huskey's left shoulder moved, but I didn't see any sway that suggested he moved his whole body to impeded Zimmer.  Thus I don't believe that was the right call no matter what the situation, and it was unfortunate that it was called with so much on the line late in a game.   

I thought that the bad calls basically evened out down the stretch. I admit that I didn't get a good look at that last illegal-screen foul that was called on Webster that more or less decided the game.[/color]

One is a poster I don't know. One is a Legend. Read the Red parts. It appears they make my point of the make up calls and there importance. The same referee.

I'll say it again, Denny: Refs don't make up for a missed call that they didn't see, especially if they have no way of knowing at the time that it was a missed call. Watch the video again. Freeze the frame at 2:05:01. The short ref -- and you're right, it's the same ref that called the foul on Huskey five seconds later -- is screened by Ward coming in bounds as Etter is jumping out of bounds. The short ref has no way of seeing both Etter's hands catching the ball and Etter's feet stepping on the endline, because Ward is blocking his view of Etter. He can't make a call there, because he has no way of gauging whether it was a legal throw-in or not.

We, on the other hand, have an angle that allows us to see Etter touching the ball before his feet landed. Heck, Bob's even screen-captured it and posted it here yesterday morning. (I think that his screen capture is from 2:05:00.) In fact, if you replay the video and freeze it at that fatal second -- 2:05:01 -- you can see Illinois Wesleyan's #45 (Mike Mayberger) rising up off the bench and pointing his finger across the floor at Etter. The arm of an unidentified person on IWU's bench to Mayberger's right is also pointing at Etter. And the IWU play-by-play guy immediately stated that Ron Rose was calling for an illegal throw-in on the play.

But all of us -- video viewers, Mayberger, Mayberger's neighbor, Coach Rose -- had the right angle to see the play. The short ref didn't. And he was the one with the whistle, which means that his view -- or non-view -- was the only one that mattered.

(I feel like a member of the Warren Commission dissecting every frame of the Zapruder film of JFK's assassination. )

The illegal screen called on Huskey with :03 left wasn't a make-up call. It was just a plain ol' garden-variety bad call. There was no conspiracy, no slick good-ol'-boy-network ripoff, no reason for paranoia. The ref made a bad call that existed all by its lonesome, plain and simple. It's a shame that it happened, and my personal view is that Webster fans have a valid case in complaining about that call. But that call was not made in a conscious effort to rip off Huskey or Edwards or Webster in general or to reward Illinois Wesleyan so as to satisfy some mysterious D3 pecking order.

The Red is the Problem. Bold, I'm going to agree with you for the sake of this part of the discussion (but reserve rights to reverse, later.

but giving you the bold. The Red Statement is the problem. Not at this point of the season, do I ever want to hear that. I feel they CAN do better. For the kids. And, I'm not done mentioning their names if this continues. After, My Gift of the BOLD!

[oldknight]

* (2:04:40) Gorloks up 70-69 with 0:08 to play.  IWU's Dylan Overstreet makes 2 FTs.  On the in-bounds, Webster may have gotten away with a turnover.  Hunter Ward in-bounds to a player who is in-bounds heading back out-of-bounds.  He seems to catch it in the air in-bounds and land out-of-bounds.  I'm honestly not sure what the rules are on this.

--I'm not certain about my answer on the inbounds play. Technically, it's a turnover but I also know that officials seem to typically interpret it in such a way that if the first player to grab the ball after a made basket or FT was not trying to inbound it (only handing it to the player who is supposed to inbound it) then it's a judgment call by the official. If that speculation is correct, the first "pass" really wasn't a pass and can be ignored. One of my closest friends is a high school and college ref and I'll see him at church tomorrow and find out how that is ruled.

I talked to my friend and he says going by the book it was a rules violation and the ball should have been awarded to IWU, though he admits it isn't always called. He was interested to know if the first player merely handed the ball to the second or if it was passed in the air to the second Webster player. He likened the way most refs handle this call to the phantom tag at second base on a double play ball which seems to be more of area call. How much leeway are you going to give? Interestingly, he said that most refs would likely hold closer to the letter of the law if the stakes were higher (such as the end of a close game). That surprised me since I expected him to say the opposite.

That's one refs perspective for the FWIW Dept.

It wasn't a handoff. It was a lateral pass of about six feet. As I said, Bob screen-captured it and posted the picture in this room yesterday at 11:52 am. His picture appears to be from 2:05:00 in the archived game video; the incident takes place at 2:05:00 and 2:05:01.

(Incidentally, the unidentified player to Mayberger's right ended up being #55, Nick Anderson. He stands up a second or two later to yell at the ref about the illegal throw-in.)

The "area call" from baseball is a good analogy, but in this case it's evident from the video that the problem was that the ref was screened by the original ballhandler on the throw-in, Hunter Ward. The violation just seemed too obvious for it to fall under the "area call" rubric, even if the ref had seen it properly.

I know and I told my friend the pass traveled about 6 feet from one player fully out of bounds to a teammate inbounds . He suggested that a handoff, while technically the same violation, would be something he would view differently.

[Denny McKinney]

Denny, regarding the conspiracy theory you continue to advance (involving the "good ole boys", "The Man", etc)...

* Who is behind it, any why?

* What advantage do those behind the conspiracy enjoy by helping "power" teams like IWU win?

* Why did they allow Hope to lose at home Friday and accept an empty house for Wheaton vs Penn State-Behrend (while they wanted to make sure IWU won Friday for a big crowd Saturday vs SNC)?  Seems they were inconsistent with their handling of Friday.

* Why has IWU played in 8 sectionals since 1996-97 ('98 at UW-Platteville, '01 at Chicago, '03 at Randolph-Macon, '04 at Wooster, '06 at Lawrence, '10 at UW-Stevens Point, '12 at Wooster, '13 at North Central) while never being awarded the right to host before today?  Wouldn't they want IWU to host more sectionals? 

* Why do they keep making IWU go on the road in the tournament to play #1 and #2 ranked teams in early rounds?  Wouldn't they want IWU to have an easier road to Salem?


The truth is out there.  Help me find it.

Titan I'm done with the conspiracy of was one given home cooking. And, It was "Garden Variety". I'm saying why is it Made to sound like it is acceptable. It shouldn't be.

[Gregory Sager]

Greg. He heard from all those you mentioned with the better angle. LOUDLY. I'm surprised he didn't spit his whistle out. It was a oh sh*t moment. I personaly don't know if I could refocus and decide to make a call. I don't care.

I'm pretty sure that he didn't hear it. Listen to the video again at that point. There were 1,750 people screaming their lungs out. You can't hear Ron Rose, or anybody else on the IWU bench, complain about the non-call on the audio. The only reason why the IWU broadcasters understood why Rose and several IWU players and assistant coaches leaped to their feet and pointed at Etter is because the broadcasters were sitting courtside right next to the IWU bench.

They deserve better Greg. I just think they deserve better. But, no one gets it.

Titan I'm done with the conspiracy of was one given home cooking. And, It was "Garden Variety". I'm saying why is it Made to sound like it is acceptable. It shouldn't be.

Nobody said that Webster didn't deserve better, Denny. They did deserve better. Heck, I'm sure that most people who watched the game and who don't have a wardrobe loaded with green clothing were rooting for the Gorloks. Cheering for the underdog is a cherished tradition in American sports, especially a huge underdog that shocks everyone by proving its mettle against a highly-regarded opponent. You could practically hear the opening fanfare from the Rocky theme playing in your head when Webster took that late lead.

And nobody said that a bad call in the final three seconds is good form for refereeing a basketball game. But it's acceptable in the sense that it has to be accepted as a done deal, because you can't file a postgame protest over a foul call that is essentially a matter of a referee's judgment rather than a rulebook dispute.

As I said, it's a shame that it happened. Sometimes basketball games end with decisive bad calls, and the losing team and its fans have a valid right to be upset about it. But it doesn't necessarily indicate make-up calls, or conspiracies, or anything other than a simple bad call on the part of the offending referee. Even the best ref makes bad calls.

[Denny McKinney]

Greg. He heard from all those you mentioned with the better angle. LOUDLY. I'm surprised he didn't spit his whistle out. It was a oh sh*t moment. I personaly don't know if I could refocus and decide to make a call. I don't care.

I'm pretty sure that he didn't hear it. Listen to the video again at that point. There were 1,750 people screaming their lungs out. You can't hear Ron Rose, or anybody else on the IWU bench, complain about the non-call on the audio. The only reason why the IWU broadcasters understood why Rose and several IWU players and assistant coaches leaped to their feet and pointed at Etter is because the broadcasters were sitting courtside right next to the IWU bench.

They deserve better Greg. I just think they deserve better. But, no one gets it.

Titan I'm done with the conspiracy of was one given home cooking. And, It was "Garden Variety". I'm saying why is it Made to sound like it is acceptable. It shouldn't be.

Nobody said that Webster didn't deserve better, Denny. They did deserve better. Heck, I'm sure that most people who watched the game and who don't have a wardrobe loaded with green clothing were rooting for the Gorloks. Cheering for the underdog is a cherished tradition in American sports, especially a huge underdog that shocks everyone by proving its mettle against a highly-regarded opponent. You could practically hear the opening fanfare from the Rocky theme playing in your head when Webster took that late lead.

And nobody said that a bad call in the final three seconds is good form for refereeing a basketball game. But it's acceptable in the sense that it has to be accepted as a done deal, because you can't file a postgame protest over a foul call that is essentially a matter of a referee's judgment rather than a rulebook dispute.

As I said, it's a shame that it happened. Sometimes basketball games end with decisive bad calls, and the losing team and its fans have a valid right to be upset about it. But it doesn't necessarily indicate make-up calls, or conspiracies, or anything other than a simple bad call on the part of the offending referee. Even the best ref makes bad calls.

Greg the exact post as I was expecting from you. Your an accept it kind of personality. The BEST at most levels do not make that call. And, why you would want to settle for less for the Kids you followed so many years. Your the Kind that won't Get It. But, if they Did!!! Wow we would have somebody telling it to the mountain tops.

But, you don't. So sit down Denny. Accept it.

[Denny McKinney]

So throw out everything until the final 8 seconds

I'll now label the official's call on the Jarrod Huskey screen as irresponsible... one of the worst I've ever seen in the final seconds of a game..  Huskey's feet were set, his hands were in and down in a protective position... he leaned slightly, but that didn't play a role, there was going to be enough contact to take Zimmer out of defensive position anyway....the call simply should not have been made... It robbed everyone, Webster and IWU fans alike, of seeing a game deciding shot, win or lose....as YJack will tell you, I don't yell at refs, I'm decidedly against that behavior.. but heck, that's one where the players should have decided the outcome... instead the man with the stripes did.. I'm afraid I would have been yelling til the lights went out at the Shirk on that one...

Hopefan are going to say a word. You are a take it kinda guy, aren't ya? Simply Amazing. This has been a learning experience? Guys if you accept less you usually get less.