MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Mr. Ypsi]

High-school coaches have their pluses and minuses, BT. You've described the pluses: Familiarity with the recruiting area and the other local high-school coaches, name recognition, etc. It's certainly not unprecedented for a successful local high-school coach to turn out to be a great hire for a D3 school (e.g., Mike Fuline at Mount Union, and, in a different sport, John Thorne for North Central football).

But there are minuses, too. Just because you've been at the high-school end of the recruiting process as a coach doesn't mean that you'll be competent, to say nothing of successful, at the college end of the process. The level of player with which you'll be working is different, and that comes with its own learning curve in terms of being able to work not only with the different physical nature and different skills level of 18-to-21-year-olds as opposed to 15-to-18-year-olds, but also the very different mentality, maturity, and time-management skills of those two age groups. The politics of high-school faculties and administrations are very different than the politics of college administrations and athletic department staffs. The budget and travel are different, too. All in all, lots of minor differences, some major differences.

There's obviously plenty of precedent for an effective crossover from high-school coaching to college coaching. But it's not an automatic thing, by any means. And that's why a lot of ADs specifically require, or at least emphasize, college coaching experience in the list of job requirements when they post job openings for coaches.

I think most folks with even a rudimentary understanding of college hoops realize that recruiting is the backbone of any successful team/coach.  Perhaps I'm wrong. 

Sir. Sager. I think you are underestimating what fans know about coaching duties.

As far as I know, neither of you frequents any rooms on d3boards.com besides this one (and perhaps the CCIW room as lurkers), so you'd both be surprised at how many posters on d3boards.com leave out recruiting when they talk about coaching, and treat recruiting as a completely different topic. As Mr. Ypsi will testify, I tend to have a few hobby horses to which I frequently respond on d3boards.com. (And regular posters who are active in multiple rooms, such as Mr. Ypsi, see me coming a mile away whenever these subjects come up; they almost race each other to post, "How long before Sager comments on this?" ) Those hobby horses are:

1) People referring to non-conference games played in November and December as "preseason";
2) People using the cliché, "It's hard to beat a team three times in one season"; and
3) People who treat recruiting as something completely separate from coaching when talking about the coaching profession.

In certain ways I'm a pretty predictable creature.

I predicted you would say that!

[WUPHF]

Is that why I had to hear about the the four year minimum for the hot seat and how it is different between Division I, II and III?  Other posters on the other threads? 

I am with you on the hard to beat a team three times in a season cliche. 

[BunchTime]

Well, color me surprised.  And, if that indeed occurs frequently, I would say those folks lack a basic understanding of college hoops and I would subsequently read their posts with a grain of salt.

[WUPHF]

Think about it...a successful and respected STL high school coach would know just about everyone in the local scene, would have instant name recognition for prospective recruits and would be someone other local coaches would enjoy and trust having his players play for.

The last time this happened locally was at Division II UMSL.  Nice guy, but he did not last long, so UMSL went back to hiring coaches with college experience.

How about Landon Kurz?  He was an assistant for Kim Anderson before returning to St. Louis to coach at Webster.  He would likely have experience in KC and in recruiting transfers in addition to St. Louis and would come at an entry-level pricetag.

[BunchTime]

Pretty small sample size (obviously), WUH.  Plus, I think going from high school to DII with scholarships available is vastly different from high school to DIII, IMO.

I know Landon a little bit and he's a nice guy.  Don't know enough about his history.  My guess would be he's a little inexperienced for what FU is looking for. Maybe not.  That said, I prefer he stay at my alma mater and keep recruiting for the Gorloks.

[Gregory Sager]

Is that why I had to hear about the the four year minimum for the hot seat and how it is different between Division I, II and III?  Other posters on the other threads? 

The "we're not D1" hobby horse gets ridden hard and put away wet by a lot of other posters besides me.

The four-year-minumum thing is just a rule of thumb that crops up from time to time. The issue of how long you give a coach to get a program moving forward isn't really the front-burner topic here that it is in D1 chatrooms, probably because D3 isn't as profit-driven and has more of a holistic approach to its student-athletes than does D1. Oops, looks like we're right back to the "we're not D1" hobby horse again.

Well, color me surprised.  And, if that indeed occurs frequently, I would say those folks lack a basic understanding of college hoops and I would subsequently read their posts with a grain of salt.

Yep.

[Denny McKinney]

At least a HS coach has experience on the sideline. Knows how to coach a team to victory. And, there have been 100's of Great DI coaches who learned and put in time and sweat on the HS level.

What does a 30 something D3 Bench coach know about winning a game. Most have never coached a meaningful game, other the JV. Gene Bartow St. Charles HS, coach Spoon in the SWMO area, Rich Grawer and my Pops for 12 years.

Just thought I'd throw a few names for you from around here, Bunchtime. And, I can promise you Dad had no problem with recruiting or coaching another level of players.

Basketball is damn easy game. It's people make it difficult with way to many X and O's. Guys came to play for him cause they liked his philosophy. Run an gun and out score the opponent.

[BunchTime]

Here's my short list for the FU job (in no particular order):

1. Landon Kurz - current Webster assistant. See above comment.
2.  Caleb Lawson - assistant at Wash U. 7 or 8 years there as Edwards right hand man.
3.  Lance Thornhill - longtime FU assistant.
4.  Kevin Walsh - FU alum and McKinney player, current Vianney coach for about 15 years now. Built successful program at Vianney, well-connected to the area.
5.   Chris O'Connel - current WU assistant. Successful HS coach, has lots of contacts, has colleges exp.
6.  Buddy Sodeman - son of a longtime successful HS coach, GA at IWU, assistant at Loras.
7.  Kaniela Aiona - former WU player, assistant at Lake Forest and a few other places (can't remember) and current assistant at DII St. Leo in Florida
8. Marshall Newman - former WU player from STL, current assistant at DII Lindenwood for Brad Soberberg for about 7 years now, well-connected to the STL HS hoops scene
9.  Erwin Claggett - from Venice, IL, former SLU standout, and current head coach of SLUH.

Not an exhaustive list by any means.  Just throwing some names out there.

[Denny McKinney]

FU doesn't need someone to come practice how to be a HC. They need a HC. They have a 20 yr. Associate  Head Coach, who recruited a whole lot of the players on the current roster. And, he has been in about every coaching situation imaginable in those 20 years. We've tried DIII assistant. Didn't win and now has moved on.

FU has a good candidate in a lot of former players, who have went out and one. Please not another CCIW assistant for this go around.

Sager if you want to tell me the ins and outs of coaching? You barked up the wrong tree. I think I have a pretty darn good idea.

[BunchTime]

You'll notice that each one of the guys I mentioned has strong ties to the area, as a either a coach or player (and in many cases both) and the requisite experience to be successful, IMO.  No need to bring in some young assistant from some other part of the country with no local ties when you have a pool of qualified guys with strong St. Louis area connection. But, hey, what the hell do I know.

[hopefan]

Here's my short list for the FU job (in no particular order):

1. Landon Kurz - current Webster assistant. See above comment.
2.  Caleb Lawson - assistant at Wash U. 7 or 8 years there as Edwards right hand man.
3.  Lance Thornhill - longtime FU assistant.
4.  Kevin Walsh - FU alum and McKinney player, current Vianney coach for about 15 years now. Built successful program at Vianney, well-connected to the area.
5.   Chris O'Connel - current WU assistant. Successful HS coach, has lots of contacts, has colleges exp.
6.  Buddy Sodeman - son of a longtime successful HS coach, GA at IWU, assistant at Loras.
7.  Kaniela Aiona - former WU player, assistant at Lake Forest and a few other places (can't remember) and current assistant at DII St. Leo in Florida
8. Marshall Newman - former WU player from STL, current assistant at DII Lindenwood for Brad Soberberg for about 7 years now, well-connected to the STL HS hoops scene
9.  Erwin Claggett - from Venice, IL, former SLU standout, and current head coach of SLUH.

Not an exhaustive list by any means.  Just throwing some names out there.

Great list Buncher   makes it very obvious how complicated a search process could become..
I'll throw out a name from the past who I would love to see get involved.... Matt Rogers, former Coach at Maryville, had some very good teams, left when the program went D2, coached ladies in SCIAC, and left coaching a year or two ago to write... the last I read, he planned on coming back to coaching... Denny wants run and gun, Rogers was a proponent to that style.....

[Denny McKinney]

Bunchtime- That's a lot of WU ties. We need more FU folks. Hell there is a HS coach in Sullivan, MO. He could of won 16+ games this year with the talent pool. KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.

[Denny McKinney]

Here's my short list for the FU job (in no particular order):

1. Landon Kurz - current Webster assistant. See above comment.
2.  Caleb Lawson - assistant at Wash U. 7 or 8 years there as Edwards right hand man.
3.  Lance Thornhill - longtime FU assistant.
4.  Kevin Walsh - FU alum and McKinney player, current Vianney coach for about 15 years now. Built successful program at Vianney, well-connected to the area.
5.   Chris O'Connel - current WU assistant. Successful HS coach, has lots of contacts, has colleges exp.
6.  Buddy Sodeman - son of a longtime successful HS coach, GA at IWU, assistant at Loras.
7.  Kaniela Aiona - former WU player, assistant at Lake Forest and a few other places (can't remember) and current assistant at DII St. Leo in Florida
8. Marshall Newman - former WU player from STL, current assistant at DII Lindenwood for Brad Soberberg for about 7 years now, well-connected to the STL HS hoops scene
9.  Erwin Claggett - from Venice, IL, former SLU standout, and current head coach of SLUH.

Not an exhaustive list by any means.  Just throwing some names out there.

Great list Buncher   makes it very obvious how complicated a search process could become..
I'll throw out a name from the past who I would love to see get involved.... Matt Rogers, former Coach at Maryville, had some very good teams, left when the program went D2, coached ladies in SCIAC, and left coaching a year or two ago to write... the last I read, he planned on coming back to coaching... Denny wants run and gun, Rogers was a proponent to that style.....

My father would turn over in his spot. And, I might join him if they did it's a Heart Attack waiting to happen. If I had to make a list to 100 that guy would not make the cut. Plain and Simple. His treatment towards his players was troubling.

[BunchTime]

Hope, yes, forgot about Rogers.  Always thought he was a good coach.

Denny, just trying to advocate for my Gorloks!    Obviously my list was WU-centric because I know and have kept up with them.  Don't know what the FU guys are up to. 

[Gregory Sager]

At least a HS coach has experience on the sideline. Knows how to coach a team to victory. And, there have been 100's of Great DI coaches who learned and put in time and sweat on the HS level.

What does a 30 something D3 Bench coach know about winning a game. Most have never coached a meaningful game, other the JV. Gene Bartow St. Charles HS, coach Spoon in the SWMO area, Rich Grawer and my Pops for 12 years.

Your examples are all pretty dated, Denny.

As I said, it's perfectly possible that there's a high-school head coach out there who would be ideal for Fontbonne, because there are current examples within the D3 ranks of coaches who moved up from high school to college successfully. I've already cited Mike Fuline from Mount Union; perhaps Pat or D-Mac or somebody else can come in here and cite another example or two, 'cuz nobody else seems to be coming to mind for me at the moment (which doesn't mean that there aren't other examples out there besides Fuline).

The problem with your assertion, Denny, is that there's an awful lot of ADs out there who don't agree with you. If you track d3jobs.com regularly -- one of the various websites Pat administers as part of the d3sports.com family -- you see just how many D3 athletic directors out there are either insisting upon college coaching experience, or listing it as a preferred attribute, when they post the qualifications for their coaching job openings.

Right now d3jobs.com lists three openings for head coaches: Yeshiva men's basketball, Wilkes men's basketball, and Western Connecticut men's soccer. Yeshiva's job requirements simply say, "Bachelors degree and 3-5 years experience coaching basketball required." However, the Yeshiva job is only part-time, which restricts the school's ability to be selective.

The Wilkes job requirements states: "A Bachelor's degree is required, Master's degree preferred. The ideal candidate must have significant knowledge of and proven success in coaching basketball, preferably at the collegiate level." It's a full-time position.

The Western Connecticut job requirements state: "Bachelors Degree is required; Master's degree preferred. A minimum of five (5) years coaching experience at the collegiate level, preferably at least two (2) years 'experience as a head coach." It's also a full-time position.

Speaking as someone who had a front-row seat for the rigmarole of his alma mater's hiring of a head basketball coach not once but twice within the last few years, I've developed a pretty good idea for what D3 ADs are looking for nowadays in terms of full-time head coaches. And, while I'm sure that there's plenty of exceptions, college coaching experience seems to be either required or preferred more often than not.

Sager if you want to tell me the ins and outs of coaching? You barked up the wrong tree. I think I have a pretty darn good idea.

I wasn't directing those comments at you, Denny. I was directing them at BunchTime. That was pretty obvious, since I referred to him by name.