MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[WUPHF]

As one who has a vested interest in the long term success of MacMurray as a viable college, I can say that all students enrolled in majors that were eliminated will be able to finish their majors at Mac. There just will be no option for current frosh to major in the eliminated majors. Also, Mac is in the process of adding new majors to the curriculum. With a new President and Provost, there should be a lot of positives going forward for Mac to see long term growth and successes academically. New scholarship opportunities implemented for 2016 will help secure growth for Mac.

Let's hope the new President and Provost recognize the positives student athletes can bring to a small school... the kids deserve far better facilities than are currently existing....

Given the state of the Illinois budget and the future of the Illinois MAP grant, the MacMurrays of the world may not be in a position to spend on facilities any time soon.

[hopefan]

EC has shown well in a couple of scrimmages: beat Carl Sandburg College by 30+ and played North Central on Friday to an even first half. 

EC should surprise some teams and will be competitive even with the key departures of Saathoff, Wickert, and James.  Sam Feehan and Tommy Goulding will provide a good bit of offensive firepower in combination with returners Kent and Gibson. Ahnafeld, Warner, Gossett, and Sain could get minutes, and look for a couple of freshmen, Alex Wiegand and Hank Thomas to get in the mix. Wiegand could make a significant impact.

EC  -  Your optimism is good news... Based simply on returning players, my vote would have had Eureka in the basement of the SLIAC... Good to hear that new faces are having such a positive impact...

Are we talking North Central of the CCIW?   I ask as there are a bunch of North Central this and thats out there...

Yes, CCIW version, so a very good program.  I noticed they added a Peoria-area local, Alex Sorenson (6' 8", 245) who had been on scholarship at Northern Michigan.

That is great news... if they can play even with North Central for a half, whether scrimmage, exhibition, or dunk contest, it means to me that they can be competitive in most situations vs any SLIAC team!!!  Very exciting.... though down here in St Louis, I love to root for the Eurekas, Greenvilles, Blackburns, Westminsters of the world... the prototypical small school in a small town that does it with mostly small hs kids.... I'll be seeing Eureka on Nov 16 at Monmouth, I'll look for you, EC.

[hopefan]

As one who has a vested interest in the long term success of MacMurray as a viable college, I can say that all students enrolled in majors that were eliminated will be able to finish their majors at Mac. There just will be no option for current frosh to major in the eliminated majors. Also, Mac is in the process of adding new majors to the curriculum. With a new President and Provost, there should be a lot of positives going forward for Mac to see long term growth and successes academically. New scholarship opportunities implemented for 2016 will help secure growth for Mac.

Let's hope the new President and Provost recognize the positives student athletes can bring to a small school... the kids deserve far better facilities than are currently existing....

Given the state of the Illinois budget and the future of the Illinois MAP grant, the MacMurrays of the world may not be in a position to spend on facilities any time soon.

Disappointing, very disappointing....

[Gregory Sager]

I know this isn't about basketball, but there was a discussion here a while back about Iowa Wesleyan cutting back academic programs. Here's another article that focuses on Wartburg College, an IIAC school, doing the same thing. But it is also SLIAC relevant because it mentions MaacMurray in the 5th paragraph from the end. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/10/29/wartburg-college-and-other-liberal-arts-institutions-make-drastic-cuts-challenging

All these things can have an impact on athletic programs, just as athletic programs can help enrollment. Lots of forces at work.

I have to kind of wonder if a school that no longer offers an English, history, or philosophy major is still a 'liberal arts' college.  While there is certainly a role for tech schools, business schools, etc., at what point of cutting majors does MacMurray become guilty of false advertising in claiming to be a Liberal Arts College?

As one who has a vested interest in the long term success of MacMurray as a viable college, I can say that all students enrolled in majors that were eliminated will be able to finish their majors at Mac. There just will be no option for current frosh to major in the eliminated majors. Also, Mac is in the process of adding new majors to the curriculum. With a new President and Provost, there should be a lot of positives going forward for Mac to see long term growth and susuccesses academically. New scholarship opportunities implemented for 2016 will help secure growth for Mac.

That's not really a response to Chuck's point, though. And that point is very valid: A school that does not offer majors in English, history, or philosophy has a dubious claim upon being a liberal arts college, because English, history, and philosophy are the very heart of what constitutes the liberal arts. As Chuck said, without those majors MacMurray is in serious danger of being guilty of false advertising when it calls itself a liberal arts college.

And, yes, I recognize that those three fields don't draw a lot of students willing to major in them, and that they're thus not as attractive to college administrators from a cost-effective point of view as are business, nursing, education, etc. Doesn't matter. They're what make the brand, as it were. The critical-thinking skills and broad-based learning that liberal arts colleges sell themselves as bestowing upon their students are based upon literature, history, philosophy, mathematics, and language in particular, as they in turn are the modern forms of the ancient Trivium and Quadrivium of classical education.

Let's hope the new President and Provost recognize the positives student athletes can bring to a small school... the kids deserve far better facilities than are currently existing....

The primary positives that student-athletes bring to a small school are their tuition dollars. Small liberal arts college such as MacMurray tend to be tuition-driven -- as MacMurray, which has an endowment of less than $11m, most certainly is -- and the opportunity to compete in intercollegiate athletics is a surefire way to draw students onto a campus. That's why many D3 schools, especially the smaller private schools, have such a high proportion of student-athletes among their student populations. For example, somewhere between 40-45% of MacMurray's student body consists of student-athletes.

[AndOne]

EC has shown well in a couple of scrimmages: beat Carl Sandburg College by 30+ and played North Central on Friday to an even first half. 

EC should surprise some teams and will be competitive even with the key departures of Saathoff, Wickert, and James.  Sam Feehan and Tommy Goulding will provide a good bit of offensive firepower in combination with returners Kent and Gibson. Ahnafeld, Warner, Gossett, and Sain could get minutes, and look for a couple of freshmen, Alex Wiegand and Hank Thomas to get in the mix. Wiegand could make a significant impact.

EC  -  Your optimism is good news... Based simply on returning players, my vote would have had Eureka in the basement of the SLIAC... Good to hear that new faces are having such a positive impact...

Are we talking North Central of the CCIW?   I ask as there are a bunch of North Central this and thats out there...

Yes, CCIW version, so a very good program.  I noticed they added a Peoria-area local, Alex Sorenson (6' 8", 245) who had been on scholarship at Northern Michigan.

That is great news... if they can play even with North Central for a half, whether scrimmage, exhibition, or dunk contest, it means to me that they can be competitive in most situations vs any SLIAC team!!!  Very exciting.... though down here in St Louis, I love to root for the Eurekas, Greenvilles, Blackburns, Westminsters of the world... the prototypical small school in a small town that does it with mostly small hs kids.... I'll be seeing Eureka on Nov 16 at Monmouth, I'll look for you, EC.

Sorry gentlemen, but the report about the recent North Central/Eureka scrimmage needs a touch of truthful clarification.

Eureka did show fairly well in the opening half, falling to the visitors from the North by a score of 36-29. Perhaps the 7 point differential was as good as a tie from the Eureka vantage point.
The 2nd half was won handily by NCC 39-17. The varsity portion of the scrimmage thus ended with 30 point advantage for North Central, 75-45. The "JV (3rd) half" was won by the visitors 37-16.

While the first half ended with Eureka down by only 7, it should be noted the the expected starter at PG for NCC did not play a minute due to his currently being injured, and the players who will start at SG and one of the forward positions both played only 8 minutes due to their coming off recent injuries.

[hopefan]

    two views to every story... I'll still take the first half performance of Eureka as a positive sign...  in the SLIAC we look for any positive sign that we can find

[ecreddevils]

EC has shown well in a couple of scrimmages: beat Carl Sandburg College by 30+ and played North Central on Friday to an even first half. 

EC should surprise some teams and will be competitive even with the key departures of Saathoff, Wickert, and James.  Sam Feehan and Tommy Goulding will provide a good bit of offensive firepower in combination with returners Kent and Gibson. Ahnafeld, Warner, Gossett, and Sain could get minutes, and look for a couple of freshmen, Alex Wiegand and Hank Thomas to get in the mix. Wiegand could make a significant impact.

EC  -  Your optimism is good news... Based simply on returning players, my vote would have had Eureka in the basement of the SLIAC... Good to hear that new faces are having such a positive impact...

Are we talking North Central of the CCIW?   I ask as there are a bunch of North Central this and thats out there...

Yes, CCIW version, so a very good program.  I noticed they added a Peoria-area local, Alex Sorenson (6' 8", 245) who had been on scholarship at Northern Michigan.

That is great news... if they can play even with North Central for a half, whether scrimmage, exhibition, or dunk contest, it means to me that they can be competitive in most situations vs any SLIAC team!!!  Very exciting.... though down here in St Louis, I love to root for the Eurekas, Greenvilles, Blackburns, Westminsters of the world... the prototypical small school in a small town that does it with mostly small hs kids.... I'll be seeing Eureka on Nov 16 at Monmouth, I'll look for you, EC.

Sorry gentlemen, but the report about the recent North Central/Eureka scrimmage needs a touch of truthful clarification.

Eureka did show fairly well in the opening half, falling to the visitors from the North by a score of 36-29. Perhaps the 7 point differential was as good as a tie from the Eureka vantage point.
The 2nd half was won handily by NCC 39-17. The varsity portion of the scrimmage thus ended with 30 point advantage for North Central, 75-45. The "JV (3rd) half" was won by the visitors 37-16.

While the first half ended with Eureka down by only 7, it should be noted the the expected starter at PG for NCC did not play a minute due to his currently being injured, and the players who will start at SG and one of the forward positions both played only 8 minutes due to their coming off recent injuries.

Right, and it was 29-29. tied, with 1:00 left in what was essentially an even half.  That's a good sign for EC no matter who did or did not play for NCC and despite a more uneven second half.  No surprise in the JV portion, irrelevant.

[AndOne]

EC, may I ask what the source of your info is? Thanks.

[ecreddevils]

EC, may I ask what the source of your info is? Thanks.

I might have messed the score up there, but it was an even score  (29-29?) to the waning minute or so, then  NCC went on a run to expand it to 7 after some silly turnovers. My source is myself, therefore admittedly not that reliable.  Bottom line is that the first half is encouraging for an EC rotation that realistically goes six or seven deep without some drop-off to compete well against a "next-level" D3 squad.  Second half wasn't close, starters were wearing down and the expanded rotation didn't compete as well. 

[Pat Coleman]

We're not going to have an argument here over the score of a scrimmage. Thanks.

[hopefan]

We're not going to have an argument here over the score of a scrimmage. Thanks.

I think we kinda did...

[AndOne]

OK, thanks EC. Possibly 29-29.
Somebody needs to lighten up. There was no argument, Pat. Just a clarification. Thanks.

[WUPHF]

A school that does not offer majors in English, history, or philosophy has a dubious claim upon being a liberal arts college, because English, history, and philosophy are the very heart of what constitutes the liberal arts. As Chuck said, without those majors MacMurray is in serious danger of being guilty of false advertising when it calls itself a liberal arts college.

I think we would have to evaluate the curriculum before we can claim false advertising.  Do students majoring in Homeland Security or Data Analytics take a significant number of core courses in English, history, philosophy and the foreign languages?

MacMurray obviously decided that they cannot compete with Illinois College and Knox and may not be recruiting many students who have "liberal arts college" on their list of requirements for a prospective school.

One of the things I find interesting about MacMurray is that they list faith as a core value and they offer a pre-seminary program, but it is hard to find evidence on their website that their relationship with the United Methodist Church is anything more than historical.  Incidentally, MacMurray, like Webster and Fontbonne was established as a college for women before the mission was changed.

[CoachM]

I know this isn't about basketball, but there was a discussion here a while back about Iowa Wesleyan cutting back academic programs. Here's another article that focuses on Wartburg College, an IIAC school, doing the same thing. But it is also SLIAC relevant because it mentions MaacMurray in the 5th paragraph from the end. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/10/29/wartburg-college-and-other-liberal-arts-institutions-make-drastic-cuts-challenging

All these things can have an impact on athletic programs, just as athletic programs can help enrollment. Lots of forces at work.

I have to kind of wonder if a school that no longer offers an English, history, or philosophy major is still a 'liberal arts' college.  While there is certainly a role for tech schools, business schools, etc., at what point of cutting majors does MacMurray become guilty of false advertising in claiming to be a Liberal Arts College?

As one who has a vested interest in the long term success of MacMurray as a viable college, I can say that all students enrolled in majors that were eliminated will be able to finish their majors at Mac. There just will be no option for current frosh to major in the eliminated majors. Also, Mac is in the process of adding new majors to the curriculum. With a new President and Provost, there should be a lot of positives going forward for Mac to see long term growth and susuccesses academically. New scholarship opportunities implemented for 2016 will help secure growth for Mac.

That's not really a response to Chuck's point, though. And that point is very valid: A school that does not offer majors in English, history, or philosophy has a dubious claim upon being a liberal arts college, because English, history, and philosophy are the very heart of what constitutes the liberal arts. As Chuck said, without those majors MacMurray is in serious danger of being guilty of false advertising when it calls itself a liberal arts college.

And, yes, I recognize that those three fields don't draw a lot of students willing to major in them, and that they're thus not as attractive to college administrators from a cost-effective point of view as are business, nursing, education, etc. Doesn't matter. They're what make the brand, as it were. The critical-thinking skills and broad-based learning that liberal arts colleges sell themselves as bestowing upon their students are based upon literature, history, philosophy, mathematics, and language in particular, as they in turn are the modern forms of the ancient Trivium and Quadrivium of classical education.

Let's hope the new President and Provost recognize the positives student athletes can bring to a small school... the kids deserve far better facilities than are currently existing....

The primary positives that student-athletes bring to a small school are their tuition dollars. Small liberal arts college such as MacMurray tend to be tuition-driven -- as MacMurray, which has an endowment of less than $11m, most certainly is -- and the opportunity to compete in intercollegiate athletics is a surefire way to draw students onto a campus. That's why many D3 schools, especially the smaller private schools, have such a high proportion of student-athletes among their student populations. For example, somewhere between 40-45% of MacMurray's student body consists of student-athletes.

My response was to Chuck's statement "Ive often thought cutting entire majors can start a 'death spiral'." I wasn't addressing the liberal arts designation, but was addressing the death spiral comment and another comment about students in eliminated majors transferring.

[y_jack_lok]

One of the things I find interesting about MacMurray is that they list faith as a core value and they offer a pre-seminary program, but it is hard to find evidence on their website that their relationship with the United Methodist Church is anything more than historical.  Incidentally, MacMurray, like Webster and Fontbonne was established as a college for women before the mission was changed.

I went to one of those "historically Methodist" colleges. Back in my day that meant there was financial support to the college from the Methodist conference in whose jurisdiction the college was located and it also may have meant that one or more trustees was a Methodist clergy. For lots of those institutions the money and the spot on the trustees is a thing of the past.