MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Mr. Ypsi]

One of the things I find interesting about MacMurray is that they list faith as a core value and they offer a pre-seminary program, but it is hard to find evidence on their website that their relationship with the United Methodist Church is anything more than historical.  Incidentally, MacMurray, like Webster and Fontbonne was established as a college for women before the mission was changed.

I went to one of those "historically Methodist" colleges. Back in my day that meant there was financial support to the college from the Methodist conference in whose jurisdiction the college was located and it also may have meant that one or more trustees was a Methodist clergy. For lots of those institutions the money and the spot on the trustees is a thing of the past.

When I was a student (1966-70), IWU still had mandatory chapel, the conference office was ON campus, and the religion department was clearly the 'first among equals'.  By all accounts, IWU is now probably THE most thoroughly secular school in the CCIW.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I know this isn't about basketball, but there was a discussion here a while back about Iowa Wesleyan cutting back academic programs. Here's another article that focuses on Wartburg College, an IIAC school, doing the same thing. But it is also SLIAC relevant because it mentions MaacMurray in the 5th paragraph from the end. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/10/29/wartburg-college-and-other-liberal-arts-institutions-make-drastic-cuts-challenging

All these things can have an impact on athletic programs, just as athletic programs can help enrollment. Lots of forces at work.

I have to kind of wonder if a school that no longer offers an English, history, or philosophy major is still a 'liberal arts' college.  While there is certainly a role for tech schools, business schools, etc., at what point of cutting majors does MacMurray become guilty of false advertising in claiming to be a Liberal Arts College?

As one who has a vested interest in the long term success of MacMurray as a viable college, I can say that all students enrolled in majors that were eliminated will be able to finish their majors at Mac. There just will be no option for current frosh to major in the eliminated majors. Also, Mac is in the process of adding new majors to the curriculum. With a new President and Provost, there should be a lot of positives going forward for Mac to see long term growth and susuccesses academically. New scholarship opportunities implemented for 2016 will help secure growth for Mac.

That's not really a response to Chuck's point, though. And that point is very valid: A school that does not offer majors in English, history, or philosophy has a dubious claim upon being a liberal arts college, because English, history, and philosophy are the very heart of what constitutes the liberal arts. As Chuck said, without those majors MacMurray is in serious danger of being guilty of false advertising when it calls itself a liberal arts college.

And, yes, I recognize that those three fields don't draw a lot of students willing to major in them, and that they're thus not as attractive to college administrators from a cost-effective point of view as are business, nursing, education, etc. Doesn't matter. They're what make the brand, as it were. The critical-thinking skills and broad-based learning that liberal arts colleges sell themselves as bestowing upon their students are based upon literature, history, philosophy, mathematics, and language in particular, as they in turn are the modern forms of the ancient Trivium and Quadrivium of classical education.

Let's hope the new President and Provost recognize the positives student athletes can bring to a small school... the kids deserve far better facilities than are currently existing....

The primary positives that student-athletes bring to a small school are their tuition dollars. Small liberal arts college such as MacMurray tend to be tuition-driven -- as MacMurray, which has an endowment of less than $11m, most certainly is -- and the opportunity to compete in intercollegiate athletics is a surefire way to draw students onto a campus. That's why many D3 schools, especially the smaller private schools, have such a high proportion of student-athletes among their student populations. For example, somewhere between 40-45% of MacMurray's student body consists of student-athletes.

My response was to Chuck's statement "Ive often thought cutting entire majors can start a 'death spiral'." I wasn't addressing the liberal arts designation, but was addressing the death spiral comment and another comment about students in eliminated majors transferring.

I know next to nothing about MacMurray's situation (I sincerely hope that your optimism is justified), so I will certainly not apply the remarks to Mac specifically.  But as a generality, I have seen 'death spirals' started, then egged on, by unwise program cutting; I've also seen students transferring in droves when their major is cut (EVEN IF they are still allowed to continue it), since the department is likely to be trimmed to the point where course access/scheduling is highly inconvenient or the students' preferred instructors have been let go. 

As I say, I sincerely hope that MacMurray avoids these pitfalls.  Good luck to you and your school.

[WUPHF]

I went to one of those "historically Methodist" colleges. Back in my day that meant there was financial support to the college from the Methodist conference in whose jurisdiction the college was located and it also may have meant that one or more trustees was a Methodist clergy. For lots of those institutions the money and the spot on the trustees is a thing of the past.

Very true, but I guess based on what I have seen, I expected an institution that offers a pre-seminary program and refers to faith as one of there core values to be more like say Fontbonne as opposed to Webster.

[WUPHF]

When I was a student (1966-70), IWU still had mandatory chapel, the conference office was ON campus, and the religion department was clearly the 'first among equals'.  By all accounts, IWU is now probably THE most thoroughly secular school in the CCIW.

If I did not know better, I would have guessed that the most secular campus in the CCIW had to be the one affiliated with the UCC, but that is not the case.

[y_jack_lok]

I went to one of those "historically Methodist" colleges. Back in my day that meant there was financial support to the college from the Methodist conference in whose jurisdiction the college was located and it also may have meant that one or more trustees was a Methodist clergy. For lots of those institutions the money and the spot on the trustees is a thing of the past.

Very true, but I guess based on what I have seen, I expected an institution that offers a pre-seminary program and refers to faith as one of there core values to be more like say Fontbonne as opposed to Webster.

My alma mater offers a pre-ministry program: http://rmc.edu/academics/pre-ministerial

[Gregory Sager]

A school that does not offer majors in English, history, or philosophy has a dubious claim upon being a liberal arts college, because English, history, and philosophy are the very heart of what constitutes the liberal arts. As Chuck said, without those majors MacMurray is in serious danger of being guilty of false advertising when it calls itself a liberal arts college.

I think we would have to evaluate the curriculum before we can claim false advertising.  Do students majoring in Homeland Security or Data Analytics take a significant number of core courses in English, history, philosophy and the foreign languages?

i would argue that it's the upper-level courses (i.e., courses that a student would need to take en route to a major or minor) that define a school's academic ethos, and not the freshman-level core courses that could be taught by adjuncts if, say, the English, philosophy, and history departments were eliminated. But maybe that's just me.

MacMurray obviously decided that they cannot compete with Illinois College and Knox and may not be recruiting many students who have "liberal arts college" on their list of requirements for a prospective school.

Probably true, although competing with Illinois College and Knox was probably never the best way to go -- if, in fact, that's what MacMurray was actually doing.

My response was to Chuck's statement "Ive often thought cutting entire majors can start a 'death spiral'." I wasn't addressing the liberal arts designation, but was addressing the death spiral comment and another comment about students in eliminated majors transferring.

OK. Thanks for clearing that up.

As I say, I sincerely hope that MacMurray avoids these pitfalls.  Good luck to you and your school.

Those are my sentiments as well. There are going to be tough days ahead for a lot of D3 schools over the next few years. Fingers crossed that MacMurray weathers those tough days.

One of the things I find interesting about MacMurray is that they list faith as a core value and they offer a pre-seminary program, but it is hard to find evidence on their website that their relationship with the United Methodist Church is anything more than historical.  Incidentally, MacMurray, like Webster and Fontbonne was established as a college for women before the mission was changed.

The United Methodist Church is a massive (albeit rapidly shrinking) denomination that has a tremendous amount of diversity within its ranks, and that diversity is reflected both regionally and institutionally. That's why a UMC-affiliated school such as Illinois Wesleyan could be so secularized that the denominational tie is essentially vestigial at this point, while IWU's district sister schools MacMurray and McKendree remain consciously Christian and have strong campus ministry programs. Ralph Turner's alma mater McMurry is another example of a UMC-affiliated school that retains a very strongly Christian institutional identity.

One of the things I find interesting about MacMurray is that they list faith as a core value and they offer a pre-seminary program, but it is hard to find evidence on their website that their relationship with the United Methodist Church is anything more than historical.  Incidentally, MacMurray, like Webster and Fontbonne was established as a college for women before the mission was changed.

I went to one of those "historically Methodist" colleges. Back in my day that meant there was financial support to the college from the Methodist conference in whose jurisdiction the college was located and it also may have meant that one or more trustees was a Methodist clergy. For lots of those institutions the money and the spot on the trustees is a thing of the past.

When I was a student (1966-70), IWU still had mandatory chapel, the conference office was ON campus, and the religion department was clearly the 'first among equals'.  By all accounts, IWU is now probably THE most thoroughly secular school in the CCIW.

No, Chuck. That would be Millikin, which has even more tenuous ties to its parent denomination (the Presbyterian Church USA) and to the historic Christian faith than does IWU. Unlike IWU, Millikin doesn't even have a religion department anymore. The only class that you can take at Millikin that even remotely touches upon the topic is the philosophy department's Philosophy of Religion course. And IWU has more social opportunities for students of faith, such as FCA (Fellowship of Christian Athletes) than does its CCIW rival to the south. Millikin has InterVarsity for evangelicals and a Newman Center for the Catholics, and that's about it.

If I did not know better, I would have guessed that the most secular campus in the CCIW had to be the one affiliated with the UCC, but that is not the case.

Yeah, Elmhurst's pretty secular, but, again, not as secular as Millikin. Keep in mind, though, that Elmhurst's most famous alumnus was world-renowned Christian ethicist H. Richard Niebuhr (who also served as Elmhurst's president for four years). It's hard to escape from such a big shadow, even a half-century after his death.

[Denny McKinney]

Wow! That's all I got on the last 3 pages of posts.

[allamericanredhead]

Boo on Dennis for not wanting to share his stories

[Denny McKinney]

Red. You know all my stories. Except the story of having the same Cancer as Dad and my grandpa. Go watch a SLIAC game and contribute something. I'm old news!

[y_jack_lok]

Wow! That's all I got on the last 3 pages of posts.

Denny, that sounds a bit like you are unhappy with the conversation you read. I know it doesn't address basketball directly but the stability of the institutions in the SLIAC (Iowa Wes and MacMurray) is not irrelevant to discuss. The fact that the conversation included a couple of institutions outside the conference may not be as germaine, but it is always useful to have other frames of reference.

Don't worry, games start in about 10 days, so the reading will be much more interesting very soon. 

[Denny McKinney]

Yjak- well most of my reaction was to the scrimmage score. But, the history of religious ties of each CCIW school got long. The viability of SLIAC  schools were relevant. FU still has a couple Sisters on the board. None on campus. Carry on guys, my bad.

[y_jack_lok]

Yjak- well most of my reaction was to the scrimmage score. But, the history of religious ties of each CCIW school got long. The viability of SLIAC  schools were relevant. FU still has a couple Sisters on the board. None on campus. Carry on guys, my bad.

Yes, the part about religious ties did get long. Sometimes us old guys can't stop talking.

[Denny McKinney]

I'm in that old guy group, my friend.

[hopefan]

I just got a confirmation that Larry Patterson, point guard for Principia, is eligible for the whole season  (there was some question about semesters, enrollment etc)... with Patterson, just like last year, Prin has a very good starting four with Patterson at point, Justin Ball in the middle, and Parker Davidson and Jeff Ross on the wings... great size and athleticism for the SLIAC.... now, someone, whether it's Hammond, or Sander (both saw playing time last year), or new face Adaku Anumu (JC transfer), needs to fill that 5th spot role or key bench roles.. go with the flow, get the ball to scorers, play defense..

Prin is rated 9 out of 10 in the coaches poll... They have the most ppg from players returning from last year, 60 ppg back... and this team gave Spalding and Webster close games last year... they're capable of beating any team in the conference if the big 4 stay healthy and can play 32-34 minutes per game.

[hopefan]

Forgot to remind that Prin plays at Maryville (Mo.) tonight... of course, every time I think of Maryville, I'm twinged with disappointment that they left the SLIAC to join D2... I enjoy the SLIAC so much now, but it was even more fun when the Saints were in the conference too....