MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[WUPHF]

I have to laugh a little when I read about Dave Arseneault and his enthusiasm for his particular approach to the game.

By some standards, Arseneault is better at coaching golf than he is basketball.

I love quotes such as I guess I was ahead of my time.  It seems to me that there is a reason why D3hoops.com has not written about The System in 13 years.  It is newsworthy this year, but still, wake me up when more than a fraction of a percent of Division III programs follow his lead.

If Grinnell and everyone involved in the program is happy with the results, then great.

I am a little shocked that someone wrote a book about the game in which Arseneault abandoned his own rules to help Jack Taylor set a scoring record, but in this day and age, you can self-publish anything if you pay for it.

Finally, the following quote by Dave Arsenault, Jr. is possibly the most interesting explanation for playing a weaker schedule:

"Some coaches like to play the toughest possible schedule. I want our guys to be mentally intact when we get to our conference schedule. If my best scorer is thinking he's better than he actually is and playing at a higher level than he's normally capable of, that's going to give our team the best chance to succeed."

[hopefan]

WUH.    My 180 degree comment from your thinking...  and clearly no disrespect. Greenvilles play frustrates me to the limit... but I just can't stop coming back to watch again and again and again.

[WUPHF]

No disrespect taken...

I think it is cool that the system exists.

And, last season you made a very compelling argument for the change to the system by Coach Barber.

There is just something about Dave Arseneault...

[Greek Tragedy]

Finally, the following quote by Dave Arsenault, Jr. is possibly the most interesting explanation for playing a weaker schedule:

"Some coaches like to play the toughest possible schedule. I want our guys to be mentally intact when we get to our conference schedule. If my best scorer is thinking he's better than he actually is and playing at a higher level than he's normally capable of, that's going to give our team the best chance to succeed."

I think this may have been taken out of context. Nowhere does it say they purposely schedule weaker opponents so their players think they are better than they really are. I think he's focused on the mental part of his players rather than the physical part of playing better opponents. The philosophy is the same no matter who they are playing. Stevens Point traditionally plays a tough schedule to "get ready for the conference grind."

As mentioned previously, they traditionally have a hard time scheduling opponents, so they are hardly picky. I don't think there was ever a time when Grinnell passed up an opportunity to play an opponent with the mentality, "no thanks, you're too good. Playing you will negatively impact my player's mental status."

[WUPHF]

I think this may have been taken out of context. Nowhere does it say they purposely schedule weaker opponents so their players think they are better than they really are. I think he's focused on the mental part of his players rather than the physical part of playing better opponents. The philosophy is the same no matter who they are playing. Stevens Point traditionally plays a tough schedule to "get ready for the conference grind."

Thanks for the correction...

Let me say instead: it is interesting to hear a coach express something other than the usual let's play the toughest schedule possible to get ready for the conference grind.

I do not follow Grinnell closely enough to know their schedule.  Massey has their schedule rated at 74.

[ecreddevils]

I've long admired Aresenault for his innovation and I think the System is perfectly suited for DIII.  Exciting style to watch, fun to play, heightens participation and thus helps retain players, aids in recruiting (I would think), and clearly can be a winning formula. 

[iwumichigander]

No disrespect taken...

I think it is cool that the system exists.

And, last season you made a very compelling argument for the change to the system by Coach Barber.

There is just something about Dave Arseneault...

no lack of Dave Arseneulr ego!  I recognize that part of the reason Arsenault went to the "system" was to help increase enrollment and get players PT.  Where I had a problem was his "gaming the system" to establish NCAA records against non-conference opponents that had no chance against Grinnell.

[Greek Tragedy]

If we're talking strength of schedule, Grinnell's SoS of 71 is higher Rochester, Ramapo, CNU, Neumann, Amherst and Tufts to name a few.

[WUPHF]

If we're talking strength of schedule, Grinnell's SoS of 71 is higher Rochester, Ramapo, CNU, Neumann, Amherst and Tufts to name a few.

Agreed and acknowledged even if I was slightly off on the ranking...

I do not follow Grinnell closely enough to know their schedule.  Massey has their schedule rated at 74.

I had initially used the word contrarian to describe the quote before changing it to interesting.  Contrarian is much closer to my original intent.  I read his quote again and even without further context, it sure seems to me that he is expressing an opinion that runs counter to what many coaches say publicly about the benefit of scheduling a tough non-conference slate.  That really was my point.

[ecreddevils]

Nice article on EC hoops:

http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/basketball/men/despite-wild-ot-loss-things-looking-up-for-eureka-college/article_b19300f6-7959-5eaa-8d4a-cb9da9b477b1.html

Be sure to scroll to the bottom as reading, an ad breaks up the text. 

[Gregory Sager]

It was a fine column by Ryan, and it was very helpful in that he interviewed numerous coaches from different System schools so that it didn't end up just being another Arseneault & Son, Inc. story. The best part of the story was when he talked about the distinctives in X's and O's between the men's version of the System and the women's version. I thought that the column's ending was a little overstated, though; this is hardly the ebola virus of college basketball strategies. The System has been around for two decades now, and you can still count on two hands (with fingers left over) the number of D3 teams that employ it, men and women included. As WUH said, wake me up when more than a fraction of D3 is using the System.

I enjoy watching the System (and I enjoy the challenge of trying to keep up with it on my PBP call every year when the North Central women visit North Park). I don't really think I'd enjoy it as much if it was my team that was utilizing it, but to me it reflects one of the virtues of D3 basketball, which is stylistic variety. I don't think that I'd have any trouble rooting for a Greenville or a Rhodes in the D3 tourney. Grinnell, though, is another story, and that's in large part due to the Arseneaults. To wit:

No disrespect taken...

I think it is cool that the system exists.

And, last season you made a very compelling argument for the change to the system by Coach Barber.

There is just something about Dave Arseneault...

no lack of Dave Arseneulr ego!  I recognize that part of the reason Arsenault went to the "system" was to help increase enrollment and get players PT.  Where I had a problem was his "gaming the system" to establish NCAA records against non-conference opponents that had no chance against Grinnell.

That 2012-13 game in which he got Jack Taylor that record of 138 points still sticks in my craw, because Arseneault radically altered the System for that game in order to enable Taylor to set that record -- and he set it against a Bible school that was totally outmanned and was unable to offer any resistance to whatever statistical goal Arseneault set out to accomplish. But Faith Baptist Bible be damned , Arseneault used the game as a promotional tool to draw attention to his program and his school. Likewise, when his son was Grinnell's PG and was racking up huge assists totals, in at least one instance Arseneault phoned the SID of a Grinnell road opponent the day after the game had been played and after Arseneault had viewed the game film, in order to request that the PBP for this shot or that shot or the other shot be re-edited in order to credit Arseneault, Jr. with more assists. I would not be surprised if he pulled that stunt more than once while his son was playing. I doubt that he did it in order to specifically promote his offspring; again, I think that it was a ploy to generate media attention by breaking records rather than doing so through the usual means of winning ballgames.

The rafters in Grinnell's gym, which are festooned with banners celebrating NCAA scoring records and D3 scoring titles, are testimony to this. It's all about celebrating numbers, as opposed to celebrating wins. While that may be a feel-good substitute for actual winning (and Grinnell, although successful during the System era, has neither dominated the MWC nor set D3 on fire in terms of winning tourney games) for some people, I think that it's really all about keeping up interest in the program both on campus and (more importantly) among high-school prospects.

I can understand how George Barber could view getting a scoring-title plaque in the mail from the NCAA as a great thing and a boon to the school spirit at his largely-unknown rural college. But I can also see how that sort of reward could lead to the dark side of setting records just for the sake of setting records, and promoting those records over and above winning. You have to feed the beast, and in D3 the beast is recruiting. While I think that ecreddevils is right that the System could be an aid to recruiting certain players, the other side of that is that you have to recruit a lot more players in order to stock your team with the seventeen or eighteen bodies it takes to really run the System properly -- and there are lots of high-school players who don't want to play System ball.

To each his own. As I said, I'm glad that the System is around. Just don't expect me to applaud the Arseneaults and their various means of media promotion.

[Greek Tragedy]

Curious to know when "Grinnell has played in the NCAAs a few times." I don't remember off the top of my head when that has happened. I assume they mean the NCAA tourney...

Did some searching...

They went in 96 (pre-System?) and in 2001...losing in the 1st round each time.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

It was a fine column by Ryan, and it was very helpful in that he interviewed numerous coaches from different System schools so that it didn't end up just being another Arseneault & Son, Inc. story. The best part of the story was when he talked about the distinctives in X's and O's between the men's version of the System and the women's version. I thought that the column's ending was a little overstated, though; this is hardly the ebola virus of college basketball strategies. The System has been around for two decades now, and you can still count on two hands (with fingers left over) the number of D3 teams that employ it, men and women included. As WUH said, wake me up when more than a fraction of D3 is using the System.

I enjoy watching the System (and I enjoy the challenge of trying to keep up with it on my PBP call every year when the North Central women visit North Park). I don't really think I'd enjoy it as much if it was my team that was utilizing it, but to me it reflects one of the virtues of D3 basketball, which is stylistic variety. I don't think that I'd have any trouble rooting for a Greenville or a Rhodes in the D3 tourney. Grinnell, though, is another story, and that's in large part due to the Arseneaults. To wit:

No disrespect taken...

I think it is cool that the system exists.

And, last season you made a very compelling argument for the change to the system by Coach Barber.

There is just something about Dave Arseneault...

no lack of Dave Arseneulr ego!  I recognize that part of the reason Arsenault went to the "system" was to help increase enrollment and get players PT.  Where I had a problem was his "gaming the system" to establish NCAA records against non-conference opponents that had no chance against Grinnell.

That 2012-13 game in which he got Jack Taylor that record of 138 points still sticks in my craw, because Arseneault radically altered the System for that game in order to enable Taylor to set that record -- and he set it against a Bible school that was totally outmanned and was unable to offer any resistance to whatever statistical goal Arseneault set out to accomplish. But Faith Baptist Bible be damned , Arseneault used the game as a promotional tool to draw attention to his program and his school. Likewise, when his son was Grinnell's PG and was racking up huge assists totals, in at least one instance Arseneault phoned the SID of a Grinnell road opponent the day after the game had been played and after Arseneault had viewed the game film, in order to request that the PBP for this shot or that shot or the other shot be re-edited in order to credit Arseneault, Jr. with more assists. I would not be surprised if he pulled that stunt more than once while his son was playing. I doubt that he did it in order to specifically promote his offspring; again, I think that it was a ploy to generate media attention by breaking records rather than doing so through the usual means of winning ballgames.

The rafters in Grinnell's gym, which are festooned with banners celebrating NCAA scoring records and D3 scoring titles, are testimony to this. It's all about celebrating numbers, as opposed to celebrating wins. While that may be a feel-good substitute for actual winning (and Grinnell, although successful during the System era, has neither dominated the MWC nor set D3 on fire in terms of winning tourney games) for some people, I think that it's really all about keeping up interest in the program both on campus and (more importantly) among high-school prospects.

I can understand how George Barber could view getting a scoring-title plaque in the mail from the NCAA as a great thing and a boon to the school spirit at his largely-unknown rural college. But I can also see how that sort of reward could lead to the dark side of setting records just for the sake of setting records, and promoting those records over and above winning. You have to feed the beast, and in D3 the beast is recruiting. While I think that ecreddevils is right that the System could be an aid to recruiting certain players, the other side of that is that you have to recruit a lot more players in order to stock your team with the seventeen or eighteen bodies it takes to really run the System properly -- and there are lots of high-school players who don't want to play System ball.

To each his own. As I said, I'm glad that the System is around. Just don't expect me to applaud the Arseneaults and their various means of media promotion.

Most know my point of view on this, so I will be brief... the fact the argument was "we looked at halftime and saw he had a chance at a record, so we went for it" is something that still angers me. They had to fix the game to start with to be able to look at a box score at halftime to see if they had a chance at it... not randomly notice at halftime there was a chance.

And remember, Arsenault Jr set the assists record on what many considered a cooked version of the assists rules for scoring (cherry-picking at midcourt, waiting for a teammate to get down court and throwing a pass when he had an unrestricted lane to the basket himself; giving up a wide open basket yourself to give the ball to a teammate does not always give you an assist).

But again... many already know my opinion.

[y_jack_lok]

Webster at Mac postponed to Monday: http://websterathletics.com/news/2017/1/13/mens-basketball-basketball-games-at-macmurray-postponed.aspx. Change has already been made on the SLIAC site. But nothing there yet about Blackburn at Spalding.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Curious to know when "Grinnell has played in the NCAAs a few times." I don't remember off the top of my head when that has happened. I assume they mean the NCAA tourney...

Did some searching...

They went in 96 (pre-System?) and in 2001...losing in the 1st round each time.

That loss in 2001 by a 132-91 score was IWU's all-time scoring record until they got 150 last season in a win over Greenville (another System team).