MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Greek Tragedy]

Though not the System, Point handled JCU's full court press and up tempo style fairly easily and then won the National Championship the following night during their 1st run. 

[WUPHF]

By the way, I have only watched Greenville a hand full of times since the switch in style.  The fact that we have very few teams playing that style makes it an easy way to describe how they play.  If we had a lot more teams playing loosely what we refer to as the System, there would end up being more ways to describe the style.  Maybe we would just attach the team name to the phrase the System.

Based on a few games I have watched, I would say, the Greenville System looks more Nolan Richardson than David Arsenault.  But what do I know...

[Gregory Sager]

Though not the System, Point handled JCU's full court press and up tempo style fairly easily and then won the National Championship the following night during their 1st run. 

And that is relevant ... how?

[WUPHF]

Greenville did get the win and will represent the SLIAC in the NCAA tournament with a 126-119 win over Blackburn.  I'll let others describe the results, but congratulations to Coach Barber and company.

[hopefan]

Based on a few games I have watched, I would say, the Greenville System looks more Nolan Richardson than David Arsenault.  But what do I know...

Before I agree/disagree, I'd like to hear your definition of the two...I am aware that Greenville has attempted, with great success, to copy Grinnell's way of doing things....But I'm curious as to how you would describe the differences....

[WUPHF]

The differences I have seen through limited viewings are subtle, but off the top of my head, Greenville seems to emphasize the three less, particularly on offensive rebounds (that does not mean they take less attempts, by the way) and seems to substitute players less frequently.

My point was that at some point, if we start seeing more and more programs adopting the System, we would need more than one word to describe the variances.

Again, this is based on the limited number of games I have watched.

[y_jack_lok]

^^^ I'm going to concur with several of these points. Over a decade ago I saw Emory & Henry play the system against Randolph-Macon two seasons in a row. At the time E&H was coached by your late friend, hopefan, Bob Johnson. They used a new set of four or five players every 45 seconds to a minute -- a total of 19-20 players in all. And after an offensive rebound (which were few and far between against RMC) they would pass the ball back out for a three. Seem's that's the same thing Grinnell did seven or eight years ago when they played at Fontbonne.

When Greenville played against Webster this year they basically used 10 players and ran a somewhat more balanced offense -- though still taking more threes than a normal team. I do think this season's Greenville team is different in that way from the previous two years. You have to do what's necessary to win so if the other players they had wouldn't be able to play well enough in The System for them to win, the strategy had to be adjusted.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The differences I have seen through limited viewings are subtle, but off the top of my head, Greenville seems to emphasize the three less, particularly on offensive rebounds (that does not mean they take less attempts, by the way) and seems to substitute players less frequently.

My point was that at some point, if we start seeing more and more programs adopting the System, we would need more than one word to describe the variances.

Again, this is based on the limited number of games I have watched.

I wrote a whole column about this two years ago - check the ATN archives - but really it is a whole new avenue of offensive (and defensive) innovation.  This is where analytics got us - remember, Grinnell did a whole analytical evaluation of the System way back in the early 90s.  I'm sure the data is much wider and deeper now than it was then.

To me, the truly unique aspect of The System was that it was largely defense driven.  It was a full court press with all five players in the backcourt (one at the halfcourt line, prepared to play safety against the long pass).  Not even Grinnell does that as much anymore, but in its heyday, Grinnell spent A LOT more time working on defense than offense, because that's what drove the philosophy.

Now you're seeing offensive innovation, spacing, and set plays more the focus for these "System" teams.  It's different and its evolution and I think Dave Arseneault is fine with it.

[hopefan]

Greenville NORMALLY uses 3 units... the 3rd gets a little less court time, but if you look at the stats, 16 players have appeared in 21 or more games, with another having played in 19... and some of those missed games were due to injury... and yes Greenville double and triple teams all over the court, and their athleticism this year makes it even more effective than the first two years they used it... Greenville doesn't have the shooters they did, but their quickness accounts for better shots and more to the basket hoops.... unlike Grinnell though, no they won't pull up for a 3 on a one on none fast break!!!   

Remember, Greenville started the season with only two key returnees, and it took all the new faces some time to figure things out...they finished November with a 2-4 record.... Since then they are 17-4.....BUT, I just don't know if they can be competitive against a regional top seed... I fear a 160-120 type game.....

[y_jack_lok]

Maybe I'm splitting hairs here. Yes, Greenville has 16 players who have appeared in 21 or more games. But if you look at minutes played there are 12 who play 19.6 down to 10.3 per game. The next player averages 7.1 per game which seems like a fairly big gap. I think Ryan Scott's observations about evolution are on target.

[hopefan]

Not a lot of concern being shown over in the CCIW Board over the Augustana-Greenville matchup.....

Here's the funny thing... I was watching the Hope-Olivet game the other night, as Hope committed some pretty ugly turnovers against Olivets "pressure defense"... I said to myself, the Dutchmen are fortunate they are not facing Greenville... and now Hope is in the other game of the Augustana pod...

CCIW posters are showing little respect for any system team, and are throwing up historical results for that support... but history doesn't always repeat itself...  wow would I love to see the comments if Greenville.....    nah, couldn't happen, could it.....I hope, if nothing else, just for a couple minutes, that Greenville is relly able to put it to them.....

[Greek Tragedy]

That would be quite the feat. Maybe the shock to the System (pun intended) would throw them off enough that Greenville could make things interesting. You know what they say, the closer the game is at the end, the nerves start kicking in for the favored team. The closer the game, the more confidence the underdog gets. I would love to see an upset just because that's what the tournament is all about.

[y_jack_lok]

If Augustana beats Greenville they have to be concerned about how much energy they have left for Saturday night.

[lmitzel]

Not a lot of concern being shown over in the CCIW Board over the Augustana-Greenville matchup.....

Here's the funny thing... I was watching the Hope-Olivet game the other night, as Hope committed some pretty ugly turnovers against Olivets "pressure defense"... I said to myself, the Dutchmen are fortunate they are not facing Greenville... and now Hope is in the other game of the Augustana pod...

CCIW posters are showing little respect for any system team, and are throwing up historical results for that support... but history doesn't always repeat itself...  wow would I love to see the comments if Greenville.....    nah, couldn't happen, could it.....I hope, if nothing else, just for a couple minutes, that Greenville is relly able to put it to them.....

I won't completely rule out an upset. I announced for a System team for five years, and there was one trend I tended to notice: the truly elite teams would exploit the gambling at the front end of the defense for easy layups on the back end, and while I'm sure Greenville will force turnovers, Augie will get more than its fair share of fast break points. You'll probably get Grey Giovanine's jacket off significantly sooner than another opponent would (and possibly thrown farther in the bleachers than it's accustomed to), but I think he'll have his guys prepared.

If Augustana beats Greenville they have to be concerned about how much energy they have left for Saturday night.

The running joke in the CCIW board is that Augie hoards bigs, and the stats back it up:

Player	MPG
Martin	19.8
Benning	25.1
Dollmeyer	11.7
Ferguson	10.4

Those are the main four, and while those minutes may be tougher in terms of the amount of back and forth they're going to log, it's not like they're playing well over 30 minutes. They go pretty deep in the backcourt too. Fatigue may play a factor Saturday if Augie advances, but maybe not as much as we think.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Not a lot of concern being shown over in the CCIW Board over the Augustana-Greenville matchup.....

Here's the funny thing... I was watching the Hope-Olivet game the other night, as Hope committed some pretty ugly turnovers against Olivets "pressure defense"... I said to myself, the Dutchmen are fortunate they are not facing Greenville... and now Hope is in the other game of the Augustana pod...

CCIW posters are showing little respect for any system team, and are throwing up historical results for that support... but history doesn't always repeat itself...  wow would I love to see the comments if Greenville.....    nah, couldn't happen, could it.....I hope, if nothing else, just for a couple minutes, that Greenville is relly able to put it to them.....

I won't completely rule out an upset. I announced for a System team for five years, and there was one trend I tended to notice: the truly elite teams would exploit the gambling at the front end of the defense for easy layups on the back end, and while I'm sure Greenville will force turnovers, Augie will get more than its fair share of fast break points. You'll probably get Grey Giovanine's jacket off significantly sooner than another opponent would (and possibly thrown farther in the bleachers than it's accustomed to), but I think he'll have his guys prepared.

If Augustana beats Greenville they have to be concerned about how much energy they have left for Saturday night.

The running joke in the CCIW board is that Augie hoards bigs, and the stats back it up:

Player	MPG
Martin	19.8
Benning	25.1
Dollmeyer	11.7
Ferguson	10.4

Those are the main four, and while those minutes may be tougher in terms of the amount of back and forth they're going to log, it's not like they're playing well over 30 minutes. They go pretty deep in the backcourt too. Fatigue may play a factor Saturday if Augie advances, but maybe not as much as we think.

System ball is always less work for the bigs, because they don't always make it back to halfcourt before the ball's coming back at them.