MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Gregory Sager]

Hopefan is an old fogie...what the heck is reddit?

I had a good laugh when I read that.

Same here. God bless hopefan:

Hope fan I AM BACK  just for now. I love how you keep this board up to date. I would give anything to hear from Denny once more, especially after the Greenville game. Lee's teams were never known for defense but even I can't imagine giving up 200 points !!!. All those times Denny  would public swear of the board and then come back under a new name   Biggest homer who ever graced this board, GOD bless him.

Hey, welcome back AARH! And, as WUPHF said, congratulations!

[Gregory Sager]

An entertaining back-and-forth discussion.  Since I have not had the chance to see Greenville play an entire game either in person or online, I probably ought to refrain from offering a lot of opinions about the merits/evils of The System.  When Greenville visits Webster on Feb. 16, I hope to be in the gym to watch this phenomenon up close and personal...ABC Wide World of Sports style.

You'll be entertained, Jay ... and impressed. What GU does is not helter-skelter streetball, which is what a lot of uninitiated people think. It's very deliberate, very much planned out, and it's even scripted to a certain degree. And the Panthers, who certainly have some talent on their large roster, play it beautifully. Augustana's coaches and players will attest to that.

The old-school part of me looks down on teams that try to score, score, score with a big lead in the last couple of minutes.  But, perhaps this generation of younger fans is not concerned much about that at all.  Live for today, and karma be damned.  I must admit, if I'm a Greenville player and the chance is there to get to 200 points, it would be tempting to pursue it...if only to be able to relive history with teammates at team reunions. 

But, I'm sure that those players know in the back of their minds that you can live and die by your own sword...and an opponent could come along after this 200 game that will have the chance to put a bag of burning poo on Greenville's front porch and ring the doorbell late in a game.  The chances you take when you violate the basketball commandment, "Thou shalt not run up the score on thy opponent."

I think that your read on modern players is correct, but in this case it wasn't the Panthers themselves who were heedless of issues of karma and politesse. It was their head coach, who is certainly a stand-up guy and someone worth admiring, and who even admitted in the Daily Dose blog on d3hoops.com and in tonight's Hoopsville that his detractors in the wake of Saturday night's game have a point.

I think it's less about what-goes-around-comes-around and more about a teaching moment, though. While I agree with what you're saying about how this sort of approach to reaching milestone numbers in spite of established basketball endgame protocol may come back to bite the Panthers someday, one of the things that I admire about George Barber is that he's a mentor and teacher as much as he is a coach, and he believes fervently in his players learning life lessons as a part of their Greenville basketball experience. His alibi for Saturday -- because that's what it is, an alibi -- is that he wanted his kids to enjoy a moment that they will always remember by hitting a milestone point total that no System team has ever reached before (and that, to the best of my knowledge, only one four-year college basketball team has ever reached before). Two hundred points is a nice, round, shiny number. But how valuable a memory is that compared to the memory of what could have happened -- the memory of the night that they could have scored 200 but didn't, because it wasn't the right way to play the game, because at Greenville doing the right thing is always paramount.

As I said, I have a great deal of respect for George Barber, but I think that he taught his team the wrong lesson on Saturday night.

I am intrigued about a couple of things...first, what are fellow SLIAC schools doing with regards to recruiting, that could dull the impact of Greenville's style of play?  What kind of players thrive at Greenville?  Do you try and get some for your own and give the Panthers a bit of their own medicine?  Or try and get talented offensive players who can beat Greenville using conventional means?  Or just swallow a bitter pill twice a season and accept the consequences and your fate?  For the conference schools without the means to have large rosters, I could see that Greenville's methods year after year would cause a high degree of anxiety/anger/disgust among those coaches.

This is hopefan's league, and he knows the SLIAC coaches, so he can answer your questions better than anyone else. But here's my thoughts about your questions:

1) It doesn't appear to me that other SLIAC coaches recruit with Greenville in mind. They're concerned with their own programs, not with a team that they face only twice a year. Besides, the System is not a panacea. If your team is better than the Panthers, more than likely they will beat the Panthers by taking the layups  and the free throws -- and making them -- that the System gives up, by maximizing your ball protection, and by playing smart against the press by keeping your head up, looking upcourt at all times, talking constantly in order to warn your teammates, making smart passes, and keeping the ball in the middle of the floor and away from sideline traps. Where the System comes into play is in contests against evenly-matched teams, or slightly better teams that lack either the depth or the discipline (or both) to counter the System.

2) Anybody can thrive in the System. It's not a different sport altogether. It really requires more of a difference in attitude and mentality than a difference in skills or ability. You have to reconcile yourself to the idea of playing a lot fewer minutes than do starters on other teams, and to going all-out, full-speed, pedal-to-the-metal for sixty seconds at a time, knowing that someone will replace you in a minute and let you get your wind back.

3) I don't think that getting run-and-gun-mentality type players just for the sake of being in the same league as Greenville is a good idea. If that's your coaching style, cool. But if you feel that a more deliberate halfcourt game is what's in your coaching wheelhouse, or if that's the kind of player that is most available to you recruiting-wise or who fits your school's profile best, then do it that way. Uptempo teams can beat Greenville, and halfcourt grinder teams can beat Greenville. As I said, it's no panacea. It's just a different style that gives Greenville an edge because it's a novelty and it's thus hard for an opponent to prepare for them in practice.

Second, I am more fascinated about this...what long-term effect does playing a "System" opponent have on your players?  Is there a hangover that persists into the next game (or two or three) on your system?

I don't think so. This is the style that they play all the time. This is how they practice as well as how they play. It's not as exhausting as you think, because, again, a fresh five enters the game every 45-60 seconds and even the top players are on the floor for far fwere minutes than are the starters of other teams in conventional styles. It all evens out. The thing is, though, that your team stands a chance of being winded and worn out late if you don't use a lot of players when you face Greenville.

I would think that even if you beat Greenville in the conference or NCAA Tournament...and you have a game to play the next day to win the tournament or advance to the next round...the negative carryover effects in theory could be tough to keep at arm's length.

Yep. MWC fans, coaches, and players have talked about the "Grinnell hangover effect" for years. If you play back-to-back nights (such as in the MWC tourney) and you have the misfortune of playing Grinnell on a Friday although you beat them, your legs will be sore on a Saturday unless your coach stretches his rotation farther than he usually likes to do. Even for 18-21-year-old guys, it's hard to recover from playing a System team if you're playing anywhere close to your normal minutes as a starter.

Physical and mental fatigue among ALL of your players, bad habits that come from straying too far from your normal mode of operation, and a lack of the usual patience would all seem to be real concerns for a head coach.

Exactly. And that's the edge that a System coach relies upon.

[GU1999]

Like the decision to "go for it" or not, George certainly is facing the criticism head on. 

http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2019/02/04/greenville-coachs-take-on-the-run-to-200/

I'm guessing this is a team galvanizing event. 

[Gregory Sager]

Yep. Like I said, he's a stand-up guy, whether you agree with him or not.

[hopefan]

An entertaining back-and-forth discussion.  Since I have not had the chance to see Greenville play an entire game either in person or online, I probably ought to refrain from offering a lot of opinions about the merits/evils of The System.  When Greenville visits Webster on Feb. 16, I hope to be in the gym to watch this phenomenon up close and personal...ABC Wide World of Sports style.

You'll be entertained, Jay ... and impressed. What GU does is not helter-skelter streetball, which is what a lot of uninitiated people think. It's very deliberate, very much planned out, and it's even scripted to a certain degree. And the Panthers, who certainly have some talent on their large roster, play it beautifully. Augustana's coaches and players will attest to that.

The old-school part of me looks down on teams that try to score, score, score with a big lead in the last couple of minutes.  But, perhaps this generation of younger fans is not concerned much about that at all.  Live for today, and karma be damned.  I must admit, if I'm a Greenville player and the chance is there to get to 200 points, it would be tempting to pursue it...if only to be able to relive history with teammates at team reunions. 

But, I'm sure that those players know in the back of their minds that you can live and die by your own sword...and an opponent could come along after this 200 game that will have the chance to put a bag of burning poo on Greenville's front porch and ring the doorbell late in a game.  The chances you take when you violate the basketball commandment, "Thou shalt not run up the score on thy opponent."

I think that your read on modern players is correct, but in this case it wasn't the Panthers themselves who were heedless of issues of karma and politesse. It was their head coach, who is certainly a stand-up guy and someone worth admiring, and who even admitted in the Daily Dose blog on d3hoops.com and in tonight's Hoopsville that his detractors in the wake of Saturday night's game have a point.

I think it's less about what-goes-around-comes-around and more about a teaching moment, though. While I agree with what you're saying about how this sort of approach to reaching milestone numbers in spite of established basketball endgame protocol may come back to bite the Panthers someday, one of the things that I admire about George Barber is that he's a mentor and teacher as much as he is a coach, and he believes fervently in his players learning life lessons as a part of their Greenville basketball experience. His alibi for Saturday -- because that's what it is, an alibi -- is that he wanted his kids to enjoy a moment that they will always remember by hitting a milestone point total that no System team has ever reached before (and that, to the best of my knowledge, only one four-year college basketball team has ever reached before). Two hundred points is a nice, round, shiny number. But how valuable a memory is that compared to the memory of what could have happened -- the memory of the night that they could have scored 200 but didn't, because it wasn't the right way to play the game, because at Greenville doing the right thing is always paramount.

As I said, I have a great deal of respect for George Barber, but I think that he taught his team the wrong lesson on Saturday night.

I am intrigued about a couple of things...first, what are fellow SLIAC schools doing with regards to recruiting, that could dull the impact of Greenville's style of play?  What kind of players thrive at Greenville?  Do you try and get some for your own and give the Panthers a bit of their own medicine?  Or try and get talented offensive players who can beat Greenville using conventional means?  Or just swallow a bitter pill twice a season and accept the consequences and your fate?  For the conference schools without the means to have large rosters, I could see that Greenville's methods year after year would cause a high degree of anxiety/anger/disgust among those coaches.

This is hopefan's league, and he knows the SLIAC coaches, so he can answer your questions better than anyone else. But here's my thoughts about your questions:

1) It doesn't appear to me that other SLIAC coaches recruit with Greenville in mind. They're concerned with their own programs, not with a team that they face only twice a year. Besides, the System is not a panacea. If your team is better than the Panthers, more than likely they will beat the Panthers by taking the layups  and the free throws -- and making them -- that the System gives up, by maximizing your ball protection, and by playing smart against the press by keeping your head up, looking upcourt at all times, talking constantly in order to warn your teammates, making smart passes, and keeping the ball in the middle of the floor and away from sideline traps. Where the System comes into play is in contests against evenly-matched teams, or slightly better teams that lack either the depth or the discipline (or both) to counter the System.

2) Anybody can thrive in the System. It's not a different sport altogether. It really requires more of a difference in attitude and mentality than a difference in skills or ability. You have to reconcile yourself to the idea of playing a lot fewer minutes than do starters on other teams, and to going all-out, full-speed, pedal-to-the-metal for sixty seconds at a time, knowing that someone will replace you in a minute and let you get your wind back.

3) I don't think that getting run-and-gun-mentality type players just for the sake of being in the same league as Greenville is a good idea. If that's your coaching style, cool. But if you feel that a more deliberate halfcourt game is what's in your coaching wheelhouse, or if that's the kind of player that is most available to you recruiting-wise or who fits your school's profile best, then do it that way. Uptempo teams can beat Greenville, and halfcourt grinder teams can beat Greenville. As I said, it's no panacea. It's just a different style that gives Greenville an edge because it's a novelty and it's thus hard for an opponent to prepare for them in practice.

Second, I am more fascinated about this...what long-term effect does playing a "System" opponent have on your players?  Is there a hangover that persists into the next game (or two or three) on your system?

I don't think so. This is the style that they play all the time. This is how they practice as well as how they play. It's not as exhausting as you think, because, again, a fresh five enters the game every 45-60 seconds and even the top players are on the floor for far fwere minutes than are the starters of other teams in conventional styles. It all evens out. The thing is, though, that your team stands a chance of being winded and worn out late if you don't use a lot of players when you face Greenville.

I would think that even if you beat Greenville in the conference or NCAA Tournament...and you have a game to play the next day to win the tournament or advance to the next round...the negative carryover effects in theory could be tough to keep at arm's length.

Yep. MWC fans, coaches, and players have talked about the "Grinnell hangover effect" for years. If you play back-to-back nights (such as in the MWC tourney) and you have the misfortune of playing Grinnell on a Friday although you beat them, your legs will be sore on a Saturday unless your coach stretches his rotation farther than he usually likes to do. Even for 18-21-year-old guys, it's hard to recover from playing a System team if you're playing anywhere close to your normal minutes as a starter.

Physical and mental fatigue among ALL of your players, bad habits that come from straying too far from your normal mode of operation, and a lack of the usual patience would all seem to be real concerns for a head coach.

Exactly. And that's the edge that a System coach relies upon.

Geeesh Greg, I don't know how you do it.... so much in what you said here is RIGHT ON.... wish I had the ability, the patience, the knowledge to express myself as well as you do... unfortunately, too often, I get carried away in the moment....

[hopefan]

So how is the race shaping up...

Webster and Greenville tied at 11-2... Webster has at Westmin, home with Blackburn, home and away with Prin, home with Greenville
        obviously the games with Westmin and Blackburn will be tough... Webster could have 2,3 or 4 losses coming into the Greenville game

Greenville has at Spalding, at IWU, at Eureka... back to back to back... the 3 longest trips in conference... tough..THEN Westmin at home... before the matchup with Webster...    who knows, you think of Greenville as winners over all, but Westmin beat them, it could happen again on the road at SU or EC...leading into the Webster matchup..

Westmin at 9-5 would need quite the miracle to move into the 1-2  picture, now have to be concerned with staying at 3-4... they have Webster home, Prin, at Greenville, and Mac... If they lose to the top 2, they'll finish with 7 losses

Spalding is at 9-5...has home with Greenville, Mac, at Blackburn, at Fontbonne... let's play pretend and say they lose to Greenville and at Blackburn... they would finish with 7 losses

so what does Eureka and Blackburn have to do to catch Westmin and Spalding at 7 losses?
Blackburn at 8-6 has at Fontbonne, at Webster, home to Spalding, and Prin... easy path.. they can lose to Webster and still finish at 7 losses.. critical game is beating Spalding in Carlinville....

Eureka at 6-7 has the 4 lower level teams, Font, Prin, Mac and IWU...and Greenville at home...obvious, to match the rest with 7 losses, they need to beat Greenville....

It does appear though that a 4 way tie for 3rd and 4th at 7 losses is a real possibility, with a 5 way tie still out there if EC could beat GC....

any win by a bottom 4 over a top 6 obviously would throw a monkey wrench into the works....

[GU1999]

Both teams consented to the pace of play.  Pace was insane.  Being upset with 196-200 difference comes off as a little petty.  Basketball is fun and that atmosphere was fun.  Even FU tried to score again at the buzzer. 

As for the handshakes, the video clearly shows that the FU team lined up for roughly one second while the celebration was taking place and then almost immediately went to the locker room.  Coaches did walk the line and Coach Thornhill clearly expresses something to Coach Barber as he walked away.l which look like frustration. 

The Star Tribune picked it up and the comments section look a lot like our conversations. 

A few Reddits too.  I think saw Hopefan on one sharing info about the game and the system,

Hopefan is an old fogie...what the heck is reddit?  I post here in D3hoops... period...  can't even figure out all that tweetin'!!!

I know that Hope fans are legion, so I am sure it is just a coincidence, but there appearantly is another Hope fan that is very interested in GU and the "Moon Shot" game. 

From Reddit,

"Posted by Hope Flying Dutchmenu/tvw34
2 days ago
D3 Greenville scores 200 points in a game

83 Comments
Share

Save
98% Upvoted"

[GU1999]

and the link:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketball/comments/amkaqy/d3_greenville_scores_200_points_in_a_game/

[GU1999]

The "Moon Shot Game" has been very good for the following:

- this board.  Posts and interest in the game appear to be a catalyst for interest.  I don't know how to check the stats for page views, but I'm guessing it is up.  This board will never catch the CCIW board for total posts, but were really creating some content.
- GU.  The fans, team, recruits, alumni are energized by this team, their accomplishment, and the exposure.  The excitement was already quite high for the new iteration of the team as 3-time defending conf. or co-conf champs.
- HC George Barber.  His status continues to elevate this year. 
- The SLIAC.  A conference that has yet to win a d3 tourney game is being talked about.  The league is being covered by the news in STL.  George is on Cusamano's show at 10:30 this morning.
- Discussion about "unwritten rules" and the violations of same which result in grievances and talking points.  (As ECRED argued, moon shots and their kin bat flips are just not bright lines for many of the players and younger generations).  On the unwritten rules conversation, has it been determined that the system team is OK to deploy the system style until the final shot clock can be fun out.  I think that I noticed this in Mr. Sager's post, but I need a ruling from the committee.
- Decorum.  This is a really cool place to discuss differences of opinions even if it is on fairly trivial matters.  It has been done in a very civilized manner. A lesson that if applied to our greater and more significant political debate would serve everyone well.

HOPEFAN - much respect.  I have read you for years and I am glad to be interacting with you now.

I am glad to be a part of this. 

[WUPHF]

and the link:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketball/comments/amkaqy/d3_greenville_scores_200_points_in_a_game/

Clue No. 1: the dearth of ellipses.

[Gregory Sager]

LOL! You have to respect hopefan for developing his own signature posting style.

[WUPHF]

Very true, and it works well in terms of keeping everything organized.

[GU1999]

The 15+ minute interview on Frank Cusamano's show (590 AM in St. Louis) came and went with no mention of the "controversy" until George mentions it in a general way at the end unassisted. 

Next up is 2 eastern / 1 central interview on ESPNU with Jason Horowitz and Sean Farnham. Sirius XM #84

[blue_jays]

Like the decision to "go for it" or not, George certainly is facing the criticism head on. 

http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2019/02/04/greenville-coachs-take-on-the-run-to-200/

I'm guessing this is a team galvanizing event.

As an outside observer who just heard about this game a few minutes ago, I think he did a great job in the post with his explanation and thoughts. The opposing team has the right to get mad if they want. But I don't think there was a big sportsmanship breach here. We're not teaching grade school kids the game and running up the score, these are young adults who can control the outcome themselves.

Bottom line: I'm good with the Greenville 200, but I'll never support the Grinnell vs. Sisters of the Poor planned exhibitions...

[hopefan]

Eureka loses to Principia... to me, just stunning that this team, with seemingly 5 good starters and several off the bench that can contribute, were unable to figure out how to put it together...
with 8 losses, they are not mathematically out of the race for a conference tourney spot, but they ARE out of it....

And to Prin, congrats... you certainly could have laid down and quit... but you didn't... definitely a feel good win...