MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

...
It's a problem that has no ready answer.

Good morning Greg!
I can give the "ready answer".  The Championship Committee of Division III recommends and the National Convention adopts a rule change that the basis for the Championship bids will be amended to provide one at large bid for every 8.5 remaining schools, for all sports.

The problem that arises from this is that it throws the brackets to the next level, "128" contestants in basketball, volleyball and soccer and to the 6th weekend in football.

Problem #2 is funding.

Didn't the NCAA as a whole vote recently to cap all championships at 64 participants?  I thought they were even doing away with the play-in game next year.  Was I wrong?

[Pat Coleman]

Yes. That's a D-III rule, not an NCAA-wide rule.

[Pat Coleman]

Florida won SEC in Football -- National Champion
DePauw won SCAC in WBasketball -- National Champion
Amherst lost NESCAC in MBasketball by 1 pt in the final -- National Champion
UW-Stevens Point (05) won WIAC -- National Champion
...
All this to say, if you win your conference tournament, that helps the odds to winning the National Champion. 

Because of the structure of these "tournaments" mentioned, you almost have to win the conference just to get in. That doesn't speak to conference winners doing better in an NCAA Tournament setting.

[Wydown Blvd.]

The key is that "almost." Even if those teams mentioned didnt win those conference tournaments (with the exception of Gator football), they still would have been in the national title picture.

IMHO, I don't think that the purpose of at-large bids should be to try to get that 64th and 65th ranked bubble team into the tournament. Instead I think they should be to get those teams without AQ's but with realistic title hopes into the tourney (ie: Amherst (men) and NYU (women)).

But anyway, if those teams that panther listed were good enough to win their respective National titles, I sure hope that they can win their conference tourney. Im not sure if winning the conference tourney "helps the odds of winning the national champion[ship]" Im sure conference winniners do better because they are usually the better team (with exceptions). But, if anything conference tournaments prepare teams for nationals and they are excellent regional competitions (which the D3 promotes).

[Mr. Ypsi]

The key is that "almost." Even if those teams mentioned didnt win those conference tournaments (with the exception of Gator football), they still would have been in the national title picture.

IMHO, I don't think that the purpose of at-large bids should be to try to get that 64th and 65th ranked bubble team into the tournament. Instead I think they should be to get those teams without AQ's but with realistic title hopes into the tourney (ie: Amherst (men) and NYU (women)).

But anyway, if those teams that panther listed were good enough to win their respective National titles, I sure hope that they can win their conference tourney. Im not sure if winning the conference tourney "helps the odds of winning the national champion[ship]" Im sure conference winniners do better because they are usually the better team (with exceptions). But, if anything conference tournaments prepare teams for nationals and they are excellent regional competitions (which the D3 promotes).

Winning any tournament requires a certan amount of breaks, regardless of talent.  In IWU's title year (1997) we were nearly eliminated in the second round by Rose-Hulman, a team we had already defeated earlier by 25.  We were saved only by a 'miracle' shot by Bryan Crabtree.  Greg has earlier noted that at least one of North Park's title teams had to survive a similar situation to even make the Final Four.

By the same token, teams who have NOT won their conference cannot be counted out.  I'm sure there are many other examples, but, at the risk of sounding too much the homer, the Titans are who I'm familiar with.  In 1996 they finished 2nd in the conference, yet went to Salem.  In 2001 they finished THIRD in the conference; same result.  Neither of those years had yet seen a conference tourney.  In 2006 they finished 2nd in the regular season, 2nd in the conference tourney, and, yep, went to Salem.

I, too, have no ready solution.  I fully support conference champions getting automatic bids (even those with little chance of going far - George Mason ring a bell?), but also want all teams with any legitimate chance of reaching Salem to get that chance.  The change from the mis-named QOWI should help some, but expansion is really the only solution, and it ain't gonna happen.  So...

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

but also want all teams with any legitimate chance of reaching Salem to get that chance. 

I'd say they have a chance during their conference tournament (or regular season for the UAA).  Now if you think they deserve a second chance, then it seems to me that it's putting competition over the ideals of D3.


Now, don't get me wrong.  I'm not in favor of going to a system like this.  I enjoy the at-large bids; I think the whole thing is good (with gradual changes, as the NCAA does every year to try and tweak things).

I just think if the "elites" are going to use the academic standards and philosophy of D3 cards, they should go all the way.  The arguments are just excuses to be exclusive once again.

[fcnews]

We all will be enjoying the direction in which D III is taking in the next couple of years. As I have access to info I am not allowed to make public at this time, I can say that from what I've heard alot of these problems will work themselves out. With FU's coach on the management committee, I will be releasing information when it is appropriate.

IMHO what I have been privy to sounds like the NCAA has a good idea of whats needed. It's just a matter of time.

[fcnews]

FU's team will be leaving for Belgiam tommorrow morning. Scott Porter will be performing at the reception banquet in Antwerp. Scott's family is making the trip and are very excited that Coach McKinney could make this arrangement. There will also be quite a few of the players and friends that Coach met and played against on his trip 25 years ago.

[Pat Coleman]

We all will be enjoying the direction in which D III is taking in the next couple of years. As I have access to info I am not allowed to make public at this time, I can say that from what I've heard alot of these problems will work themselves out. With FU's coach on the management committee, I will be releasing information when it is appropriate.

There's a long way to go. If there are proposals that some people might like, yes, that's possible, but there is no way to say "We will all be enjoying the direction" at this time, months away from the proposals' release and a year and a half away from any actual votes.

[fcnews]

No Pat it is not an immediate change. But, it is nice to hear that the NCAA recognizes changes have to be made and the Management Council seems to be a group of individuals who are prepared to make the changes. These problems did not happen over night and the fix can not be expected to happen without taking some time. The Management Council appears to have the members that will carry alot of weight with the Presidents Committee.

[Pat Coleman]

None of which matters a whole lot if the membership isn't behind it.

This is fairly divisive issue. I don't think whatever comes out of the committees will be automatically rubber-stamped. There's a lot of work to be done.

[y_jack_lok]

The Hampden-Sydney Tigers will have some tough 2007-08 out-of-conference matchups:
  Averett (20-7) - away
  Averett (20-7) - home
  SUNY-Old Westbury (18-11) - Holiday Hoops Tournament at HSC
  Greensboro (20-7) or #8 Mississippi College (27-3) - Holiday Hoops Tournament at HSC
  Mary Washington (16-10) - Captains Classic at CNU
  New Jersey City (19-10) - Captains Classic at CNU

Obviously I don't know how to use the quote feature very well, especially when moving from one board to another.

The above appeared on the ODAC board today. We had an earlier conversation about Webster's challenging '07-'08 non-conference schedule which is, with '06-'07 records in parentheses: Transylvania (19-9); Hanover 14-11; UW-Platteville (13-12); Augustana (22-6) finished ranked #11; Illinois Wesleyan (11-14); Milwaukee School of Engineering (16-11); Wash U (25-5) & ranked #3 at the end of the season.

I'll be interested in what others think, including Pat coleman, of the comparative difficulty of these two non-conference schedules, and whether or not there are other schools out there whose non-conference schedules might be as tough or tougher.

I might add that Illinois Wesleyan's record doesn't look that impressive, but they graduated two first team All-American's at the end of '05-'06 and had a first year head coach in '06-07. Their history is well known and this year may tell us if last year was just an adjustment to the changes from '05-'06, or a new trend.

[Mr. Ypsi]

re IWU:

You MAY be catching them at just the right moment, since even with that atypical record (and by far their worst record EVER in the CCIW) they graduated ANOTHER first team AA in 2007 (Zach Freeman).  But they are bringing in a class that may well be the best in d3 (though potential is always just that - POTENTIAL).  While I'm not about to throw in the towel on this season, they may be a year too young to scare most decent teams.

But do NOT bet on a downward trend!  27 titles in the 61 year history of the CCIW says we aren't going away for long!

Re your broader question:

I'd rank HSC's schedule marginally above, but Webster has their work cut out for them!  (I haven't scanned all the schedules [many are still not out], but that looks like a top 10, maybe even top 5, non-conference to-do list.)

[Pat Coleman]

I think Webster's is better -- Hampden-Sydney has a lot of teams with gaudy records but only Mississippi College is a real national contender.

If I were ranking the opponents mentioned, I'd probably go like this:

Washington U.
Mississippi College
Augustana
Transylvania
Illinois Wesleyan
New Jersey City
Averett
UW-Platteville
Greensboro
Hanover
Mary Washington
SUNY-Old Westbury
Milwaukee School of Engineering

[Mr. Ypsi]

I was tempted to go that direction on the Webster vs. HSC schedules, but was feeling too much like a homer to rank IWU that high, and thought Transy was on a downward cycle (and simply don't know many of the HSC opponents as well as I wish I did).