MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[fcnews]

Will do Titan Q

Hopefan- To answer your question on itenary for Cali Trip.
Leave on the 26th 6am flight.

Embassy Suites, accross from Mickey Land
Arrive in CA. with enough time for the boys to get about 3 hours of down time before the short bus ride to beautiful Fullerton for the game against Hope International.

27th - Trip to see the "Stars" and a 45 min. ride to Pasadena for the game at Cal Tech.

28th - AM Practice - Then there is a group going to DisneyLand probably 25, one of which is not me.
         Evening Free
29th- AM Practice - Free Day
        Evening Free - I'm planning on trying to make the trip to LA to see IWU v. Oxy
30th - PM Flight home

This is alot shorter trip then most FU holiday trips. FU is taking 10 players and manager and this is pretty much a basketball trip. Remember there was the Belgium trip earlier and a Hawaii Trip coming for this group next year.

[buncheriffic]

some kids that go to NAIA schools and get a lower level education could be persuaded to go to the 3 St Louis SLIAC schools.   Somewhere along the line, better education is worth the extra $ for the future benefits it brings.

Do you have a source on NAIA schools being a lower level of education? 

[buncheriffic]

In fact, you seem to be quite wrong about NAIA education being inferior. Take a look:

The top Midwestern Baccalaureate Colleges (we are in the midwest region board here)

#1 Taylor - NAIA
#2 Ohio Northern - D3
#3 Dordt - NAIA
#3 Cedarville - NAIA
#5 Augustana - D2
#6 Marietta - D3
#7 Huntington - NAIA
#8 Northwestern (IA) - NAIA
#9 Northwestern (MN) - D3
#10 MSOE - D3
#11 College of the Ozarks - NAIA

That's 6 of the top 11 schools coming from the NAIA. Including 3 of the top 4 and 5 of the top 8.
Making the "better education" argument isn't going to win over many people.

You asked for local so let's zoom in a bit to the St. Louis Region. The only school in the St. Louis region included in this ranking is, you guessed it, McKendree College. A NAIA school and the #18 Midwestern Baccalaureate College.

You could make an argument that Bond County and Greenville should be included in the list. Therefore you could add Greenville in at #26. There is some discrepancy between the region's MPO (East West Gateway) and the US Census definition here. For informations sake, Eureka is #28 on the list.

Sources: http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1ccbach_mw_brief.php
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/bulletins/fy2007/b07-01.pdf
http://www.ewgateway.org/ourregion/counties/counties.htm

[hopefan]

Nope Buncheriffic, just my own blatantly one sided opinion, having great respect for the academic merits of many D3 schools....  Sorry if that is problematic, would not want to offend.

If you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to share...

I will admit that while I sent two of my kids to Hope, where one played basketball and one swam, I sent my 3rd to William Jewel, an NAIA school whose academic merits I have tons of respect for, where she played softball, and got more financial aid than she would have at D3 schools....

[hopefan]

dang - I thought Wash U, Chicago, Illinois Wesleyan, Oberlin, Depauw, Earlham, Wheaton,   were good schools....

But anyway, I find your lists interesting, but confusing.  Thanks for the detail .

Can you explain the absence of those schools from the list?  - perhaps student enrollment? It just doesn't make sense  -  perhaps your list is a 'best buy' list of schools that have kept costs down...?  Interesting..

[buncheriffic]

Finally, the guys that choose Ill Wesleyan over D2 and NAIA that do it for education are the same guys who choose Wash. U. instead of D2 and NAIA. Webster, Fontbonne, and Maryville will never get a recruit over Wash. U.

They can truly win your "better education" argument, Hopefan.

No offense taken, Hope. I have no affiliation with the NAIA - but why pay $27,000 to go to Webster if you can get a free quality education at McKendree or Lindenwood?

[buncheriffic]

dang - I thought Wash U, Chicago, Illinois Wesleyan, Oberlin, Depauw, Earlham, Wheaton,   were good schools....

But anyway, I find your lists interesting, but confusing.  Thanks for the detail .

Can you explain the absence of those schools from the list?  - perhaps student enrollment? It just doesn't make sense  -  perhaps your list is a 'best buy' list of schools that have kept costs down...?  Interesting..

Hopefan - I gave you the source. The US News rankings for Midwestern Baccalaureate Colleges. The class that the local St. Louis schools fit in - Webster, Fontbonne, and Maryville.

Wash. U., U. Chicago are in the national rankings. Illinois Wesleyan, Oberlin, Depauw, Earlham, Wheaton are ranked as liberal arts colleges. They are in a different class of colleges.

Comparing Webster, Maryville, and Fontbonne's education to those schools would be apples to oranges. You were comparing these three local university's quality of education to that of a NAIA school. So I provided you that analysis.

[BunchTime]

Man, Buncheriffic is all over the place with the research and work. Gook work.  Also, just to add my 2 cents, I know that Coach Bunch and Siener work their tails off in recruiting area kids such as the conferences that Hope has named, including the MCC, the Suburban conferences among others.  I think it comes down to a few factors: (1) kid's expectations, and (2) money.  Many of these players think they are beyond playing for a DIII local school in which in all liklihood they do not hear much about.  It is typical that a player has his sights set on a NAIA or a DII, and when they don't come calling, they say "screw it" and instead of spending upwards of $20,000 to play ball in college, they go to a Mizzou or Missouri State just to attend school for half the cost.  Many people write the Fontbonnes, Websters, and Maryvilles off; however, that could change if they continue to land the players from those power schools/conferences and set a precedent for other players.  Five years ago in this conference, it was unheard of to get players from the likes of Vianney, DeSmet, CBC, etc, and now it seems to be happening with more frequency.

[Titan Q]

Here is the 2008 U.S. News & World Report ranking of top national liberal arts schools...

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1libartco_brief.php

This is obviously dominated by NCAA Division III schools, starting at the top with Williams and Amherst.

[sac]

There are a few schools who are now no longer submitting information to US News, and encouraging other peers to follow suit.  Their arguments being some of the data used is being used incorrectly, and is being used in a subjective way.

Alma College in Michigan is one I know.  I believe one of the items they request of schools is a list of peer institutions "they respect", and unfortunately open to collusion--highly subjective.


I've never been sure what to make of the rankings.  Calvin used to be ranked as one of the top Midwestern Colleges, not exactly sure what category.  This year was the first year they ranked as a liberal arts school and their ranking dropped significantly. 

[Titan Q]

There are a few schools who are now no longer submitting information to US News, and encouraging other peers to follow suit.  Their arguments being some of the data used is being used incorrectly, and is being used in a subjective way.

Alma College in Michigan is one I know.  I believe one of the items they request of schools is a list of peer institutions "they respect", and unfortunately open to collusion--highly subjective.


I've never been sure what to make of the rankings.  Calvin used to be ranked as one of the top Midwestern Colleges, not exactly sure what category.  This year was the first year they ranked as a liberal arts school and their ranking dropped significantly. 

http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2007/08/17/news/doc46c524b9a240e952583667.txt

"This popularity poll asks presidents like myself to rate the quality of 266 liberal arts institutions across the country, many of which we have little or no firsthand knowledge," Wilson said in a released statement.

The Bloomington campus is not alone. Sixty-two U.S. college presidents have agreed to quit taking part in U.S. News' rankings surveys, mostly because of the weight given to the reputation rating.

But so far no liberal arts colleges ranked higher than No. 30 on last year's list has signed on, nor have any of the top 100 universities.

Interviews by The Associated Press with top officials at about a dozen elite colleges confirm a fault line in the rankings debate that's more than coincidence. AP found educators everywhere don't like to see colleges ranked like basketball teams, but it irks educators at the top-ranked colleges a lot less.

This opinion-based score can significantly skew the rankings, Wilson said.

Wilson said IWU no longer will participate in the peer-assessment survey for that reason.

[fcnews]

MSOE 76 Maryville 74

[hopefan]

AS I said regarding Maryville's potential  -  wish they could win some of these close ones... But it certainly backs up my thought on their contending for a conference tourney spot - let's hope the momentum can carry through the holidays.

Also a rush to generate good conversation from my potpurri of comments - amongst our local guys as well as my CCIW buds.....

And the Fontbonne trip...what a Christmas present and great time of bonding for the program!!!!

[hopefan]

Blackburn beaten badly by Robert Morris Springfield, 93-59

[rmc45]

This was one of the most intense games. A lot of trash talking, but in the end we are all competitors. No offense to any blackburn team members. Good luck on the season.

We as a team need to knock off one of these really good teams like UMSL, to prove that we can beat a good team with little size. Being able to play with them is not hard, it becomes hard when we give up runs and take ill advised shots. We are often overlooked, but the main thing I like about RMCS is that we have heart.

RMC 8-9