MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[DukeDevil]

Not to begin what will be a hotly contested debate on scheduling practices but...

It makes complete sense for Webster to schedule a tough, D3 non-conference schedule, especially in light of the conference tournament winner receiving the AQ.

Follow the logic here...If Webster (or any conference team for that matter) runs the table in the league and loses in the conference tournament, the ONLY way they receive an at-large bid is if they had scheduled and beat other quality non-conference D3 opponents.  If on the other hand, Webster schedules only non-conference "cupcakes," there is ABSOLUTELY zero chance of receiving an at-large bid.

So, why would a coach not schedule those teams, especially if they believed they were going to be number one or two in the league?  It may provide an insurance policy against the kind of upsets we have seen in the conference tourney over the past couple of years. (Obviously, if your team is not going to be in the top of the league, then there is room for debate on whether scheduling a bunch of "heavy hitters" is worthwhile.)

But to say Webster did not win the conference tournament because they played a tough non-conference schedule and Fontbonne won the conference tournament because they did not, is well, ABSURD!

As I have read this board throughout the year, the attitude of many posters is..."the SLIAC will never receive an at-large bid."  Well folks, that is going to be true until the conference coaches schedule and beat other quality D3 non-conference opponents.  I say kudos to Coach Bunch for scheduling the tough games and challenging his players and coaching staff.  

[fcnews]

Thanks for the Kudos pride.

We went through that duscussion didn't we. I would bet that Robinson, Hoggatt and Kuhn would trade that SLIAC title for a trip to the dance. Three very talented young coaches and wiley veteran. I'll take FU in a two game tourney anytime. My quote in December was, "It only matters who wins the last game in February". My Bad, this year it was March 1st. I remember getting drilled for that comment.

I'm not taking anything away from what WU did this year, or what the seniors have accomplished. But,isn't making it to the dance what we set our sites on.

And WU did get bit, by the beating the same team three times, bug. Again, this year. That senario is 3 for 3 the past two years.

Good Luck to Coach Barber and the Panthers !!!

DukeDevil - Coach Bunch scheduled them and won the SLIAC. There isn't an at - Large coming out of this conference anytime soon. I would rather face that tough regional opponent in March, than in November. The NO at-large is not a slap it's reality. Look at the CCIW no at-large.

[hopefan]

Dukedevil - agreed 100%  - as I said before, I think 2 more wins would have had Webster in, or at least on the bubble.  The SLIAC will only learn what it takes to get in by playing, and beating, the upper level D3 teams.  So far, Webster, and Maryville to some extent, have taken that challenge.

FC  one of those continue to disagree items we both have fun with.

[BunchTime]

Everyone knows my take on the scheduling debate.  And I will add that scheduling tough teams does not in any way guarantee you a league title, a perfect season, or a conference tourney title, but it does better prepare a team than it does playing cupcakes.  And the difficult schedule early on got the Gorloks battle tested and ready for conference play, hence, the 16-0 record.

I agree with DukeDevil that when a Coach knows that his team is one of the better teams in the SLIAC, like Coach Bunch did coming into the year, it makes perfect sense to test your team with solid competition from around the region.  On the contrary, a lower tier SLIAC team would get little benefit out of playing Webster's schedule and gettting hammered.

And although Webster won't get an at-large bid, it is nice to see a SLIAC team even metioned as a longshot for a Pool C bid.  I am sure that this is the first time we have ever discussed this possibility.  I have always maintained that in order for this conference to improve, teams need to beef up their schedules.

[fcnews]

I agree with all three of you, in a sense. But, WU would of had to win both Platteville and IWU, because both are ahead of them in the bubble.

FU has Wash U, Grinnell, Rust (who beat Centre) and RHIT (who beat Franklin twice) on next years schedule. Along with DII Chaminade and Hilo. That is pretty challenging. Add WU twice. And game to fill, because a date couldn't be reached with Wheaton.

You have to schedule with your level of competition in mind. Otherwise you get your brains pounded for nothing. Also, the NCAA can push all they want to keep us in-region and not traveling. But, FU is not going to cancel their Chicago or planned Hawaii trips. There are other coaches that share this view.

How different is FU playing Moddy Bible or say Wheaton playing IL. Tech.

[Gregory Sager]

DukeDevil - Coach Bunch scheduled them and won the SLIAC. There isn't an at - Large coming out of this conference anytime soon. I would rather face that tough regional opponent in March, than in November. The NO at-large is not a slap it's reality. Look at the CCIW no at-large.

The CCIW's misfortune has absolutely nothing to do with the way that CCIW schedules non-conference games, and everything to do with the facts that: a) it's a competitive league that cannibalizes itself more than does the SLIAC; and b) the conference tournament forces an extra loss onto good Pool C candidates. Look at the three teams besides Augie that made this season's CCIW tourney: Illinois Wesleyan, Wheaton, and Elmhurst. Illinois Wesleyan played, as usual, one of the toughest non-con schedules in all of D3. The Titans played Wash U (at Wash U), Chicago (at Chicago), Occidental (at Occidental) -- all teams likely to go to the D3 dance this season -- plus three teams that narrowly fell short of the D3 tourney in Webster, Albion, and CMS. Add to that a game against an always-strong NAIA-1 team in Olivet Nazarene, and you're looking at a very tough non-conference schedule. If you were to ask head coach Ron Rose why his Titans got to within one game of the big dance this season, especially in light of having so many freshmen in the lineup, he'd unequivocally point to that tough non-conference schedule as helping to turn his 18-year-olds into grizzled veterans by the time that the CCIW portion of the slate came around.

In the end, IWU went 5-3 against regional non-conference competition.

Wheaton? All that the Wheaties did was face Hope and Calvin in Michigan, plus Chicago to boot. Wheaton also had perennial national power Wittenberg in its tipoff tourney, but Witt had a highly uncharacteristic down year (especially at the start of the season) and lost on opening night and thus didn't face Wheaton. But you can't blame Wheaton for that; Wheaton's tipoff tourney's booked a couple of years in advance, so Wheaton had no way of knowing that Witt would be atypically down (at least by its standards) this season.

In the end, Wheaton went 7-1 against regional non-conference competition.

Elmhurst had more than its share of lightweights this non-conference season, and I'm not sure that head coach Mark Scherer wouldn't want to have that back now. Still, Elmhurst played -- and beat -- Hope, and Hope will undoubtedly be the #1 team in the country when the new poll comes out this week. The Bluejays also took on a very strong UW-Oshkosh team up in Wisconsin as the return trip of their two-year contract.

In the end, Elmhurst went 9-1 against regional non-conference competition.

All three CCIW also-rans were successful in the non-conference component of their schedules. But Illinois Wesleyan, the one team out of the three that didn't emerge with a gaudy non-conference record, is also the CCIW team that made the most strides from November to March -- and it's the team that finished in second place in both the regular season and the tournament. Coincidence? Nope.

Strong non-conference scheduling works. It's not the be-all and end-all determinant between who gets to go dancing in March and who doesn't, but it certainly helps.

[pantherpride06]

I'm not taking anything away from Webster.  I never said that Webster did not win the SLIAC Tournament / AQ because of their non-conference schedule.  I think that scheduling is good.  What I am saying is that the scheduling topic is always hot.  Yet, the team that schedules the hardest in our league continues to come up short in the SLIAC Tournament.  What does that mean?  I don't know...

I pat Coach Bunch, AD Hart, and the entire crew at Webster a pat on the back.  I like everyone and not second-guessing anyone.  All I am saying is that Webster has gone 42-10 in the last four SLIAC Seasons and yet to make an appearance in the NCAA Tournament (in those years.)  The scheduling comments continue to baffle me.  Sager, Duke... we are talking about the SLIAC.  Not the CCIW or other power conference.  It's comparable to CCIW (Big 10) and the SLIAC (Horizon League).  Some conferences are going to have one team and others can get more.  We cannot all schedule harder.  We can try, but there are only so many schools. 

Quit scheduling NAIA & NCCAA Schools because they dilute your schedule....  alright.  But then, who do we schedule.  Like I've said before...  CCIWs and WIAC schools don't want to schedule a "Greenville" or "Blackburn" because it dilutes their schedule when they go to get in the tournament.  Don't believe me?  I've been with Coach Barber trying to schedule games.  They don't want to screw their schedule or travel to Greenville.  Look for another conference to schedule with?  CCIW... no.  WIAC... no. UAA... no.  HCAC... maybe. But them you are looking at alot of travel to the other side of Indiana and Ohio.  We aren't like Sager's CCIW schools with deep pockets.

Again, Travel Budget and schools not wanting to schedule are the biggest concerns I see. 

[pantherpride06]

Add to that a game against an always-strong NAIA-1 team in Olivet Nazarene, and you're looking at a very tough non-conference schedule.

And don't add merit to schedule by adding NAIA schools in the conversation.  I believe you are the one who continues to come and say NAIA schools don't count.  I know they don't.  But, don't say they don't count and use them as a source of making a tough schedule.

[fcnews]

FU has Wash U, Grinnell, Rust (who beat Centre) and RHIT (who beat Franklin twice) on next years schedule. Along with DII Chaminade and Hilo. That is pretty challenging. Add WU twice. And game to fill, because a date couldn't be reached with Wheaton.

Again, this is a pretty solid non - conference.

Pride- He also did not mention the Wheaton win over Illin. Tech.

[Gregory Sager]

FU has Wash U, Grinnell and Rust (who beat Centre) on next years schedule. Along with DII Chaminade and Hilo. That is pretty challenging.

Yes, it is, and kudos to Coach McKinney for scheduling those games. It will only benefit the Griffins in the long run to step up in competition in November and December like that.

You have to schedule with your level of competition in mind. Otherwise you get your brains pounded for nothing.

I'd hardly say that Webster got its "brains pounded" in non-con play; the Gorloks stayed within twenty of four teams that have been perennial D3 powers -- Wash U, Augustana, Illinois Wesleyan, and UW-Platteville -- and they beat two teams that have been in the D3 tournament within the past few seasons, Hanover and Transylvania. The one team that did manage to beat Webster by more than twenty, MSOE, ended up being a pretty good team this season (16-10) that was competitive for a Pool B bid coming into this week's NAthCon tourney.

And it wasn't "for nothing," either. An undefeated conference season is not "nothing." Again, I'm not attributing Webster's SLIAC success to its non-con schedule, or even saying that it was a primary factor. But I'm willing to bet that the Webster folks feel that it helped to some degree.

Also, the NCAA can push all they want to keep us in-region and not traveling. But, FU is not going to cancel their Chicago or planned Hawaii trips.

Nobody's saying that Fontbonne ought to cancel a Hawaii trip, especially when it will result in the Griffins playing better competition than they would face against other midwestern D3 teams. After all, Chaminade and Hawaii-Hilo are both D2 programs. But why travel all the way to Chicago and wind up playing Moody Bible Institute once you get there? There are plenty of D3 teams in and around Chicago, teams that could give the Griffins an infinitely better contest than MBI ever could. And those games would actually count towards Fontbonne's regional record. A trip to Chicago's never a waste of time, but a game against Moody is a waste of effort.

[fcnews]

Sager - It is Tradition. It's playing in a opening weekend tourney that has alot more meaning then just basketball. It allows the kids and the families a trip with Museum visits and "The lighting of the lights on Michigan Ave."

Let's you use your almighty North Park for example:
A trip to Cali. to play Cal St. East Bay and UCSC. Why not Oxy and CMS or whoever.
Throw in a loss to RMC-S and two games against the SLIAC's 6th team Eureka (sorry EC_SID).

People in glass houses should not throw stones.

[fcnews]

Also, the MBI Tourney included a game against a 28-5 Wm. Penn team that is headed to the NAIA II National Tourney. This team is very similar, if not as good, as your example Olivette Naz.

[Gregory Sager]

I'm not taking anything away from Webster.  I never said that Webster did not win the SLIAC Tournament / AQ because of their non-conference schedule.  I think that scheduling is good.  What I am saying is that the scheduling topic is always hot.  Yet, the team that schedules the hardest in our league continues to come up short in the SLIAC Tournament.  What does that mean?  I don't know...

I know what it means. It means nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

Webster played seventeen games against its SLIAC rivals this season. It won sixteen of them. The one that it lost was by three points. I really hope that you're not insinuating that it's possible that Webster fell four points short of a perfect 17-0 run going into the SLIAC championship game because it scheduled too many tough non-conference games. I mean, think about it. Where would the logic be in that?

Correlation does not equal causation, Pride.

I pat Coach Bunch, AD Hart, and the entire crew at Webster a pat on the back.  I like everyone and not second-guessing anyone.  All I am saying is that Webster has gone 42-10 in the last four SLIAC Seasons and yet to make an appearance in the NCAA Tournament (in those years.)  The scheduling comments continue to baffle me.  Sager, Duke... we are talking about the SLIAC.  Not the CCIW or other power conference.  It's comparable to CCIW (Big 10) and the SLIAC (Horizon League).  Some conferences are going to have one team and others can get more.  We cannot all schedule harder.  We can try, but there are only so many schools. 

Quit scheduling NAIA & NCCAA Schools because they dilute your schedule....  alright.  But then, who do we schedule.  Like I've said before...  CCIWs and WIAC schools don't want to schedule a "Greenville" or "Blackburn" because it dilutes their schedule when they go to get in the tournament.  Don't believe me?  I've been with Coach Barber trying to schedule games.  They don't want to screw their schedule or travel to Greenville.  Look for another conference to schedule with?  CCIW... no.  WIAC... no. UAA... no.  HCAC... maybe. But them you are looking at alot of travel to the other side of Indiana and Ohio.  We aren't like Sager's CCIW schools with deep pockets.

Again, Travel Budget and schools not wanting to schedule are the biggest concerns I see. 

"Deep pockets"? Give me a break.

Every season there's ten to twelve (or so) games between CCIW and SLIAC schools. This year there were ten. Your own alma mater played North Central this season. You can't tell me that CCIW schools are unwilling to schedule SLIAC schools, because every year the evidence says otherwise.

I recognize that there are scheduling difficulties for SLIAC coaches. Every conference has its own unique set of scheduling variables and problems, and the SLIAC is certainly no exception. But I just don't buy the fact that the only alternative is to schedule the likes of Logan Chiropractic, Concordia Seminary, Moody Bible Institute, and St. Louis Christian. C'mon, go find a game against a real NAIA school if you can't find a sufficient number of local D3s to play. Playing a team of grad students or a club team of chiropractors or a team of Bible college kids is just a joke.

Add to that a game against an always-strong NAIA-1 team in Olivet Nazarene, and you're looking at a very tough non-conference schedule.

And don't add merit to schedule by adding NAIA schools in the conversation.  I believe you are the one who continues to come and say NAIA schools don't count.  I know they don't.  But, don't say they don't count and use them as a source of making a tough schedule.

I've always said that pre-conference preparation is the primary reason to beef up strength of schedule, and if that means playing good NAIA teams (or a D1 or D2 team if you can get them on the sked), then go for it. No, they don't count in terms of regional record (and thus are not a component of being a Pool C consideration), but that doesn't make them invalid in terms of their usefulness to a SLIAC team. Greenville had both McKendree and Harris-Stowe on the sked this season, and those are the types of opponents that can really help the Panthers if they were to play them every year. If you're a top-echelon SLIAC team and you really want to take the next step and position yourself for Pool C, though, the best way to do it is to follow Webster's lead by playing tough non-con opponents who are specifically D3 regional opponents.

Pride- He also did not mention the Wheaton win over Illin. Tech.

If it was done well in advance, then scheduling that game was a poor decision by Wheaton head coach Bill Harris. I don't think it would've helped out Wheaton enough to get on the Pool C bubble if he had substituted a SLIAC team or a NAthCon team or an HCAC team for Illinois Tech, but he should've done so if he was able. Playing IIT was a waste of a valuable schedule slot, especially because the Red Hawks are a perennially lousy team. If he had scheduled one of IIT's good CCAC rivals such as Robert Morris-Chicago, St. Xavier, or Olivet Nazarene, then I could see the usefulness in it even though it wouldn't have helped Wheaton's Pool C cause any.

In defense of Harris, however, IIT may have been a last-minute fill-in opponent to replace a cancellation. IIT, like a lot of NAIA teams, is often a good bet to get as a last-minute fill-in that won't demand a return game in its own gym. IIT's conference mate Cardinal Stritch did the same thing for North Park this season; NPU had a last minute cancellation when the new Oberlin coach decided to renege upon a contracted game in Chicago, so NPU coach Paul Brenegan was able to get Cardinal Stritch to fill in just a couple months before the season started, with the Stritch coach generously waiving his right to ask for a return game up in Milwaukee.

[fcnews]

Sager - You mentioned your beloved North Park team. You didn't address the rest of their schedule. At least we have some discussion going, while I wait to find out where that poor scheduling Fontbonne team will be playing. For the second year in a row.

[Gregory Sager]

Sager - It is Tradition. It's playing in a opening weekend tourney that has alot more meaning then just basketball. It allows the kids and the families a trip with Museum visits and "The lighting of the lights on Michigan Ave."

And you can't visit the Magnificent Mile and the Field Museum while playing a more respectable Chicagoland opponent? Puh-leeze. If "tradition" means kicking in the teeth of a Bible school opponent that has no business being on the court with a good D3 team, then is it really a tradition worth keeping?

Also, the MBI Tourney included a game against a 28-5 Wm. Penn team that is headed to the NAIA II National Tourney. This team is very similar, if not as good, as your example Olivette Naz.

That's a good point. But why not schedule William Penn independently, rather than play them in an MBI tourney? The problem with signing on to someone else's tourney is that you have to take potluck. This year you get a decent NAIA opponent in William Penn. Another year, however, you might get saddled with two other Bible schools besides Moody.

Let's you use your almighty North Park for example:
A trip to Cali. to play Cal St. East Bay and UCSC. Why not Oxy and CMS or whoever.
Throw in a loss to RMC-S and two games against the SLIAC's 6th team Eureka (sorry EC_SID).

People in glass houses should not throw stones.

You are definitely barking up the wrong tree if you're expecting me to defend "almighty" North Park's annual scheduling philosophy. Nobody has complained longer and louder on CCIW Chat about NPU's lightweight scheduling than has yours truly. And, in fact, I have not been shy about telling either the present head coach or his predecessor that I think North Park needs to play tougher teams in November and December.

But, since you're pointing to specifics:

1) The first game against Eureka was in the UW-Whitewater tournament. Checked out UWW's season lately? The Warhawks won the WIAC, won the WIAC tourney, and are probably one of a dozen or so teams that has a real shot at the national title this season. Yeah, NPU didn't get to play the Warhawks because of that opening-round loss to MSOE, but the point is that North Park was in UW-Whitewater's tournament. Not Moody Bible's tournament -- UW-Whitewater's tournament.

2) I've never badmouthed RMC-Springfield. In fact, I've usually defended the Eagles as a decent opponent. The fact that NPU lost to RMCS is immaterial to this discussion, particularly since NPU had won the three previous meetings between the two schools. I'd rather see the Vikings play a D3 opponent, especially since this is an ongoing home-and-away series that could probably be replaced, but I don't see playing RMCS as being as glaring a hole as, say, Wheaton playing IIT.

3) NPU didn't schedule a trip to Cali during the usual two-years-in-advance scheduling window for the specific intention of playing UCSC and CSUEB. The Vikings coaches had planned a trip to the Bahamas to compete in a small-college tourney there, but the tournament was cancelled after NPU had already booked for it. And so last spring (well after most D3 schedules had been set) NPU coach Paul Brenegan and former NPU assistant coach Mark White, who is now the head coach at Dominican, decided to set up their own tournament in California. They called a number of midwestern D3 schools, couldn't find any that had any open dates left, and so they contacted the CSUEB head coach and got him to set up a classic-style tournament there in the Bay Area. (As I said, NAIA coaches often have a hard time filling out those 30-game skeds, so they're often willing to agree to a game on short notice.) UC-Santa Cruz, being an independent, is always looking for games, especially D3 regional games. Was it an ideal solution? Hardly. Was the caliber of competition top-notch? Not even close. But it was the best that could be done on short notice.

Again, even though it sounds as though I'm defending NPU's scheduling, I'm really not. I would like to see North Park upgrade its non-conference slate on an annual basis to make it more like Illinois Wesleyan's and Wheaton's usually is (and like Augie's was this year). But, at the same time, I'm pointing out the specific exigencies that led to NPU playing those opponents you cited. SLIAC teams aren't the only teams that have scheduling difficulties, you know.