MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[hopefan]

I am always thrilled when the likes of Greg/Ralph/TQ lend their expertise to discussion in the SLIAC room when the subject area turns to broader based issues  -   guys, it is always appreciated by me....

[Gregory Sager]

It certainly seems to me that you're asking all the right questions about Maryville's intentions, Ralph. Problem is, you're asking them in an informational vacuum, which makes our discussion rather difficult. It's like trying to speculate about what dessert your blind date is likely to order before she's even arrived at the restaurant.

Your suspicion that Maryville will seek GLVC membership is the same as mine. It's the only logical choice Maryville has. The only other D2 conference that is anywhere near St. Louis is the Mid-America Intercollegiate Conference, and that league consists exclusively of mid-sized public universities located in Missouri and Kansas; small, private Maryville is not a likely candidate for membership. Forming a new conference is unlikely, because the only other D2 independents that aren't on the East Coast are Oakland City (IN), Central State (OH), and Tiffin (OH) -- and four schools aren't going to cut it as an accredited conference. I would imagine that if the Maryville brass has been doing the necessary advance work for the move to D2 that it has already spoken to the GLVC.

However, on the face of it I wouldn't imagine that the GLVC would be eager to take in Maryville. The league already has an unwieldy 14 members, and the only thing more cumbersome than administering an outsized conference is administering one that has an odd number of members. Of course, the GLVC will lose SIU-Edwardsville as that school transitions to D1, so perhaps the league is looking for a substitute. The GLVC is kind of a catch-all league, similar in some respects to our own CAC here in D3; it has an eclectic mix of small private schools (eight) and mid-sized public schools (six), and the two groups really don't appear to have much in common with each other. But, surprisingly, Maryville is actually comparable to the private-school members of the GLVC in terms of enrollment and endowment:

school	enrollment	endowment
Maryville	2,801	$41.8m
Drury	1,608	$83.6m
Indianapolis	3,511	$77.2m
Lewis	3,848	$47.1m
Rockhurst	2,318	$41.2m
Bellarmine	2,325	$30.2m
Kentucky Wesleyan	956	$29.4m
St. Joseph's (IN)	1,070	$16.8m
Quincy	1,222	$12.9m

Above figures are taken from the Peterson's website.

It's interesting how the smallest (and one of the poorest) schools in the league, Kentucky Wesleyan, is also the league's traditional power in men's basketball. Also, although D2 is dominated by mid-sized public universities that are similar to D3's WIAC schools, Drury ranked ninth in D2's Directors Cup standings in 2006-07, one of only two private schools to finish in the top ten (Abilene Christian, with which Ralph is undoubtedly familiar, is the other one; it finished second).

The big question is whether or not Maryville's athletic facilities are up to par with the rest of the GLVC. Researching that would take quite a bit more time than I can offer at the moment, but if Maryville does lag behind the rest of the GLVC in terms of facilities it could raise a huge problem for the school in terms of the expenditures that would be necessary to get up to the league's specs. There will also be a huge expense upgrade in terms of travel for Maryville if it sucessfully transitions to D2. This would be true regardless of conference affiliation (or the lack thereof), as D2 is much more widely dispersed geographically than is D3. If you SLIAC folks thought that you had trouble scheduling nearby D3 schools, imagine how much tougher that task is for a St. Louis-based D2 school! The GLVC's internally wide dispersal compounds the problem; the league stretches from as far east as metro Cincinnati to as far west as Kansas City, and it goes as far north as Kenosha. The league would gain something in terms of replacing SIUE with a substitute that's geographically close to the former member (and even closer to ongoing member Missouri-St. Louis), but one wonders how the public schools within the GLVC would feel about going from being a minority of six out of fourteen to a minority of five out of fourteen.

Perhaps the GLVC has given some sort of preliminary nod to Maryville in terms of replacing SIUE as the fourteenth member of the league, probably less by choice than from a desire to maintain an even number of schools. If so, it could explain a lot as to Maryville's rationale. If not, then it would appear that the Maryville administration is somewhat flying on a wing and a prayer in terms of moving from D3 to D2 independent status.

[Titan Q]

The big question is whether or not Maryville's athletic facilities are up to par with the rest of the GLVC. Researching that would take quite a bit more time than I can offer at the moment, but if Maryville does lag behind the rest of the GLVC in terms of facilities it could raise a huge problem for the school in terms of the expenditures that would be necessary to get up to the league's specs.

Here is a summary of GLVC men's basketball attendance from '07-08, and a photo of each gym if I could find one....there were a few that I couldn't find a pic for.

Bellarmine (888 per game)
Drury (1251 per game)
Indianapolis (594 per game)
Kentucky Wesleyan (1724 per game)
Lewis (679 per game)
Missouri S&T (474 per game)
Missouri-St. Louis (270 per game)
Northern Kentucky (1053 per game) - new arena in '08-09
Quincy (710 per game)
Rockhurst (516 per game)
SIU-Edwardsville (980 per game)*
Southern Indiana (1882 per game)
St. Joseph's (804 per game)
UW-Parkside (888 per game)


* leaving for Division I


Some people would probably be surprised to realize that the GLVC teams don't really draw any better than most of the CCIW programs do.  GLVC '07-08 average men's basketball attendance = 947, CCIW = 731.

[sac]

, because the only other D2 independents that aren't on the East Coast are Oakland City (IN), Central State (OH), and Tiffin (OH) -- and four schools aren't going to cut it as an accredited conference.

Just for the sake of pestering and accuracy.......Tiffin is joining the GLIAC starting next fall.

[y_jack_lok]

On thing I was told a few months ago when this first came up, is that Maryville's president and AD, both relatively new at Maryville, came from D2 institutions. I have not checked that out, but since their names are in the press release which has a link to it in a post made yesterday, someone with the time and inclination could verify that fairly easily. This could be another reason why Maryville is heading in this direction. And it is possible, I suppose, that the president was selected by the board for this reason and that he, in turn, hired the AD for the same reason.

[Ralph Turner]

school	enrollment	endowment
Maryville	2,801	$41.8m
Drury	1,608	$83.6m
Indianapolis	3,511	$77.2m
Lewis	3,848	$47.1m
Rockhurst	2,318	$41.2m
Bellarmine	2,325	$30.2m
Kentucky Wesleyan	956	$29.4m
St. Joseph's (IN)	1,070	$16.8m
Quincy	1,222	$12.9m

Great application of the table function of this message board. 

The endowment to enrollment ratio is problematic if the school is going to move forward.  Most ASC private schools are in the $50-80 million range for 1000 to 2200 students.  In the ASC, Maryville would be about the largest school but have nearly the lowest endowment among the privates.

The current Maryville AD is Tony Duckworth who was the Men's basketball coach at D-III Huntingdon College in Montgomery thru the 2007 season.

[Gregory Sager]

, because the only other D2 independents that aren't on the East Coast are Oakland City (IN), Central State (OH), and Tiffin (OH) -- and four schools aren't going to cut it as an accredited conference.

Just for the sake of pestering and accuracy.......Tiffin is joining the GLIAC starting next fall.

Thanks, sac. I was wondering why Tiffin wasn't already a member of that league, seeing as how all of its traditional rivals have already joined the GLIAC.

[Pat Coleman]

D-III Huntingdon, Ralph meant to say.

[Gregory Sager]

The big question is whether or not Maryville's athletic facilities are up to par with the rest of the GLVC. Researching that would take quite a bit more time than I can offer at the moment, but if Maryville does lag behind the rest of the GLVC in terms of facilities it could raise a huge problem for the school in terms of the expenditures that would be necessary to get up to the league's specs.

Here is a summary of GLVC men's basketball attendance from '07-08, and a photo of each gym if I could find one....there were a few that I couldn't find a pic for.

Bellarmine (888 per game)
Drury (1251 per game)
Indianapolis (594 per game)
Kentucky Wesleyan (1724 per game)
Lewis (679 per game)
Missouri S&T (474 per game)
Missouri-St. Louis (270 per game)
Northern Kentucky (1053 per game) - new arena in '08-09
Quincy (710 per game)
Rockhurst (516 per game)
SIU-Edwardsville (980 per game)*
Southern Indiana (1882 per game)
St. Joseph's (804 per game)
UW-Parkside (888 per game)


* leaving for Division I


Some people would probably be surprised to realize that the GLVC teams don't really draw any better than most of the CCIW programs do.  GLVC '07-08 average men's basketball attendance = 947, CCIW = 731.

Bob's post reinforces the point that the distinction between D2 and the upper levels of D3 are more apparent in the caliber of athlete (and the travel required of that athlete) than in appearances (gym size and quality, attendance, etc.). And it needs to be said that the GLVC is one of the top D2 conferences in the country, at least in men's basketball.

Then again, the SLIAC is not the CCIW; the gulf between where Maryville is and where it wants to go is significantly wider than it would be if, say, Augustana or North Central were to opt out of the CCIW and attempt to move to the GLVC.

Great application of the table function of this message board. 

Since you are the dean of d3hoops.com table formatting, this is a compliment indeed!

[Ralph Turner]

It certainly seems to me that you're asking all the right questions about Maryville's intentions, Ralph. Problem is, you're asking them in an informational vacuum, which makes our discussion rather difficult. It's like trying to speculate about what dessert your blind date is likely to order before she's even arrived at the restaurant.

Chocolate

Your suspicion that Maryville will seek GLVC membership is the same as mine. It's the only logical choice Maryville has. The only other D2 conference that is anywhere near St. Louis is the Mid-America Intercollegiate Conference, and that league consists exclusively of mid-sized public universities located in Missouri and Kansas; small, private Maryville is not a likely candidate for membership. Forming a new conference is unlikely, because the only other D2 independents that aren't on the East Coast are Oakland City (IN), Central State (OH), and Tiffin (OH) -- and four schools aren't going to cut it as an accredited conference. I would imagine that if the Maryville brass has been doing the necessary advance work for the move to D2 that it has already spoken to the GLVC.

However, on the face of it I wouldn't imagine that the GLVC would be eager to take in Maryville. The league already has an unwieldy 14 members, and the only thing more cumbersome than administering an outsized conference is administering one that has an odd number of members. Of course, the GLVC will lose SIU-Edwardsville as that school transitions to D1, so perhaps the league is looking for a substitute. The GLVC is kind of a catch-all league, similar in some respects to our own CAC here in D3; it has an eclectic mix of small private schools (eight) and mid-sized public schools (six), and the two groups really don't appear to have much in common with each other. But, surprisingly, Maryville is actually comparable to the private-school members of the GLVC in terms of enrollment and endowment:

school	enrollment	endowment
Maryville	2,801	$41.8m
Drury	1,608	$83.6m
Indianapolis	3,511	$77.2m
Lewis	3,848	$47.1m
Rockhurst	2,318	$41.2m
Bellarmine	2,325	$30.2m
Kentucky Wesleyan	956	$29.4m
St. Joseph's (IN)	1,070	$16.8m
Quincy	1,222	$12.9m

Above figures are taken from the Peterson's website.

It's interesting how the smallest (and one of the poorest) schools in the league, Kentucky Wesleyan, is also the league's traditional power in men's basketball. Also, although D2 is dominated by mid-sized public universities that are similar to D3's WIAC schools, Drury ranked ninth in D2's Directors Cup standings in 2006-07, one of only two private schools to finish in the top ten (Abilene Christian, with which Ralph is undoubtedly familiar, is the other one; it finished second).

Abilene Christian is a powerhouse in D-II.  I believe that they are second only to UC-Davis in D-II championships won.  ACU is about 4000 students and has a solid 9-figure endowment.

The big question is whether or not Maryville's athletic facilities are up to par with the rest of the GLVC. Researching that would take quite a bit more time than I can offer at the moment, but if Maryville does lag behind the rest of the GLVC in terms of facilities it could raise a huge problem for the school in terms of the expenditures that would be necessary to get up to the league's specs. There will also be a huge expense upgrade in terms of travel for Maryville if it sucessfully transitions to D2. This would be true regardless of conference affiliation (or the lack thereof), as D2 is much more widely dispersed geographically than is D3. If you SLIAC folks thought that you had trouble scheduling nearby D3 schools, imagine how much tougher that task is for a St. Louis-based D2 school! The GLVC's internally wide dispersal compounds the problem; the league stretches from as far east as metro Cincinnati to as far west as Kansas City, and it goes as far north as Kenosha. The league would gain something in terms of replacing SIUE with a substitute that's geographically close to the former member (and even closer to ongoing member Missouri-St. Louis), but one wonders how the public schools within the GLVC would feel about going from being a minority of six out of fourteen to a minority of five out of fourteen.

Perhaps the GLVC has given some sort of preliminary nod to Maryville in terms of replacing SIUE as the fourteenth member of the league, probably less by choice than from a desire to maintain an even number of schools. If so, it could explain a lot as to Maryville's rationale. If not, then it would appear that the Maryville administration is somewhat flying on a wing and a prayer in terms of moving from D3 to D2 independent status.

Thanks

[Gregory Sager]

It certainly seems to me that you're asking all the right questions about Maryville's intentions, Ralph. Problem is, you're asking them in an informational vacuum, which makes our discussion rather difficult. It's like trying to speculate about what dessert your blind date is likely to order before she's even arrived at the restaurant.

Chocolate

I'm not sure which book we should ask you to write first, Ralph -- the book on formatting, or the book on women.

[Ralph Turner]

Director's Cup Winter 2008.

There are four GVLC schools in the Top 27 in the D-II Director's Cup.  (188 schools of the 300 in D-II are listed in the Director's Cup.)

[sac]

Wouldn't Maryville be interested in joining the Mid-American Intercollegiate Conference with all the directional Missouri schools and Kansas schools?
http://www.d2football.com/teams/mid-americaintercollegiateathleticsassociation/c1/


Tiffin Univ in Ohio is going D2 and with just 2,000 students and is pretty similar to Maryville in size.  It will be interesting to watch how these two schools compete at the D2 level..............though to be honest I probably won't pay much attention.

[Ralph Turner]

I have had the chance to get home to my "home computer" where my databases are.  This table makes the case for a re-assessment of the role of inter-collegiate athletics at Maryville MO.

School	Enrol	Endow	Population
Maryville MO	2,801	$41.8 Million	1.0M*
Fontbonne	2,061	$12 million	1.0M*
Webster	3,567	$46 million	1.0M*
Greenville	1,322	$14 million	6,955
Westminster	953	$45 million	12,128
Principia	542	$494 million**	635
Blackburn	605	$10 million	5,685
MacMurray	699	$12 million	18,940
Eureka	516	$11 million	4,871

*St Louis County, MO.  Greater St Louis has 2.8M people.

** Yes, Principia's endowment is that large.

If Maryville sees itself as drawing from a population that desires an urban college experience, then Maryville should focus on attracting student-athletes from Indianapolis, Chicago, Louisville and Cincinnati.  Has Maryville determined clusters of alumni in these urban areas?  Then the outreach should be to urban/suburban college bound student-athletes.  Any growth or expansion in the student body can occur over the larger population of those areas

These facts now make the case for the re-focusing of the mission and vision of Maryville's athletics department.  Somebody noticed the "handwriting on the wall^". 

^Daniel 5: 1-31

[Gregory Sager]

Wouldn't Maryville be interested in joining the Mid-American Intercollegiate Conference with all the directional Missouri schools and Kansas schools?
http://www.d2football.com/teams/mid-americaintercollegiateathleticsassociation/c1/

As I said the other day, all of the Mid-America Intercollegiate Athletic Association schools are public institutions, most of which are in the 5,000-6,000 student range or bigger. Only one school has fewer than 5,000 students: Emporia State, which has about 4,300. In terms of both size and the public/private issue, Maryville really isn't a good fit at all for that league. Plus, it currently has ten members, and I can't imagine that they're looking for an eleventh (unless one of them plans to move to D1, and I haven't heard that any of those schools are looking to do so).