MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Just Bill]

Sager, while I hate to disagree with a fellow CCIW; shooting is shooting, either you can or you can't.  Having played competitive bball, I think that shooting is one stat that is fairly reliable across the board (i know you are a stat man so I dont have any regressions to the mean or anything like that, just my opinion from playing).

I strenuously disagree. Shooting is not the same irrespective of the opponent. Some opponents are quicker than others, and are thus harder to shake in order to get yourself an open look. Some are smarter than others and know which hand you favor, or what move you favor. Some have both the quicks and the smarts, and are adept at recovering when the defense rotates. Some have enough size to impede your shots, whereas you may be used to shooting over the top of a smaller team. Some are more physical than others, and know how much they can harrass you and get away with it.

Shooting is just like every other component of basketball, in that your success at it is contingent upon what sort of an opponent you have.

Apparently, if you shoot 41% in D-III, you can shoot 41% in the NBA.  Shooting is shooting.   

Well minus the fact that it is about 4 feet deeper I would say all things being relative, yes

You never mentioned you were talking about three-point shooting before, why now?  Not that it matters.

And seriously, there's not a player in the country who could walk into an NBA game and shoot the same percentage they shoot in Division III (assuming the NBA guys tried to play defense).  Now you're being ridiculous.

[voice]

One ticket for Friday night's games - one ticket for Saturay's second round

[Mr. Downtown]

(Oshkosh) chances against WW more than LC's chances.

Agreed. Why? Because Oshkosh had DJ Marsh, who was able (offensively, not so much defensively) to drive past the defenders to the basket and create some O, without having to settle for what Whitewater gave them.

Settling for shots is why Oshkosh won the first game (in which they didn't), and then lost the second game to Whitewater (in which they did).

You cannot, I repeat, cannot just think that if Loras will have a good shooting it will be enough to pull off the upset.

What makes WIAC team's so tough to beat, is the ability to get to the free throw line. Fine and dandy if Loras tonight goes 9-16 from 3, but if Whitewater makes 20 more free throws then them, it doesn't mean jack.

As always, I expect Coach Pat Miller and his Warhawks to be very aggressive in the early goings, trying to get to the charity stripe as much as possible. Putting some early pressure on Loras defensively.

If you want to beat Whitewater, you need to match their aggressiveness, and get to the free throw line. If these guys start getting into foul trouble, those driving lanes to the basket will be open, and late in the game you are taking high % shots, which is what every team is hoping for.

I've never seen a team just simply walk into Whitewater the last 5 years, and just go out and out shoot them. They have been criticized for being one of the more finesse teams in the WIAC, but not this season, you will need to grind it out against them.

Plus, as great as Matt Goodwin is, perhaps no one was as big to Whitewater in the final stretch as Myles McKay. Great rebounder, great defender, and if he's on, a very good shooter. He is the guy for Whitewater that can pull in a double-double.

[LCfan]

Just Bill

The posting began talking about 3pt%.  I agree with you that a DIII player couldnt do that but like I said 4 ft is a very big difference.  And I was talking about relative talent so of course a DIII player couldnt do that in the NBA.  Guess you were reading how you wanted it to sound. 

[LCfan]

If I say UWW will win by 20 and it wont even be a game do you think anyone on the WIAC board will give me + karma, since disagreeing seems to make them all mad.

Go Duhawks

[Mr. Downtown]

FYI don't bring the whole "Well I was a college athlete, so I know more about college sports then you", and you won't lose Karma.

In all honesty, an athlete or not, and I have discussed with them, factors very little when it comes to sports knowledge. I would hope, seriously hope, that any Oshkosh athlete knew more about the team's game plan then a broadcaster.

What I do know, is that often times in D-III, that athletes have no idea what the other team is like, who is good, who is not. Then they get blown away. Scouting often times is borderline bad in D-III, and it's funny, cause it often seems like a fan or the media does know ahead of time what could happen, relay that to a coach and player. One ear and out the other, and walla, you lose by 20.

So yes, you may know more about what goes in the locker-room, practice, and on the floor. However, you don't know more about the WIAC, and the players/teams that associate with the conference. Their are many fans and broadcasters on this board that have followed the conference for many years.

Whitewater is a National Championship school in many sports in D-III. The fans expect greatness come tournament time, and so do the players. Loras may need to play their best game of the season to pull off the upset.

[The Roop]

If I say UWW will win by 20 and it wont even be a game do you think anyone on the WIAC board will give me + karma, since disagreeing seems to make them all mad.

Go Duhawks

Well if you said that Loras should come out and ask for autographs from the Whitewater players. Maybe that would get you some karma. As I'm not a regular WIAC poster and believe there is a reason why they play the games, I'll give you some karma myself.

Whitewaters ticket office finally answered the phone so I will be there both days.

[badgerwarhawk]

What I do know, is that often times in D-III, that athletes have no idea what the other team is like, who is good, who is not. Then they get blown away. Scouting often times is borderline bad in D-III, and it's funny, cause it often seems like a fan or the media does know ahead of time what could happen, relay that to a coach and player. One ear and out the other, and walla, you lose by 20.

Probably 95% of the scouting done is done via tape exchange so your scouting is only as good or bad as the guy running the camera or you breaking down the film.   

[LCfan]

FYI don't bring the whole "Well I was a college athlete, so I know more about college sports then you", and you won't lose Karma.

In all honesty, an athlete or not, and I have discussed with them, factors very little when it comes to sports knowledge. I would hope, seriously hope, that any Oshkosh athlete knew more about the team's game plan then a broadcaster.

What I do know, is that often times in D-III, that athletes have no idea what the other team is like, who is good, who is not. Then they get blown away. Scouting often times is borderline bad in D-III, and it's funny, cause it often seems like a fan or the media does know ahead of time what could happen, relay that to a coach and player. One ear and out the other, and walla, you lose by 20.

So yes, you may know more about what goes in the locker-room, practice, and on the floor. However, you don't know more about the WIAC, and the players/teams that associate with the conference. Their are many fans and broadcasters on this board that have followed the conference for many years.

Whitewater is a National Championship school in many sports in D-III. The fans expect greatness come tournament time, and so do the players. Loras may need to play their best game of the season to pull off the upset.

I never said nor tried to imply that I knew more, Mr. Downton, seems like you guys are over sensitive.  What I did say that is having played (and recently) should (not always the case) give you a better perspective to talk about and have insight more than someone who hasnt played or played 10+ years ago.  I wasnt talking about UWW or Loras simply about basketball in general and I definately wasnt talking about the WIACC (how could I)......not sure where you are going with the whole people followed the WIACC for a long time. 

And a response to your National Championship Program.  Loras has been to the Tourney the same amount of times as UWW in the last 10 years.  Seems like the 80's and 90's were great decades for UWW with two championships in the 80's. 

And Loras fans expect a crappy team and the players expect to lose come tournament time.  UWW might have to play its worse game for Loras to upset them. 

I just hope it is a decent game as I am driving 4 hours to see it.  Good luck to both teams.

Go Duhawks

[John Gleich]

Mr DT, I agree.  Whitewater's athleticism negates great shooting nights.  Look at Saturday night.  Point shot 68% in the first half, and Whitewater led by 3.  They shot 58% for the game, had just 11 TO's, and still lost.

And what Sager says has credence re: the quality of competition.  Historically, the WIAC has decimated non-conference opponents.  During my 4 years playing for Point, we lost one non-conference game, in the NCAA tournament.  Speaking of... look at the WIAC's winning percentage in the NCAA tournament.  It is the highest in D3.  This is due, in large part, to the quality of games played between WIAC foes.  And if you want to check my credibility, I've got two National Championships.

You can look at numbers all you want, but what you really need to look at is the numbers against which the teams are playing.  Loras's three point shooting defense is better than WW's by about half a percentage point.  But WIAC foes shoot the three better than IIAC foes on average.  The IIAC is taking more, but not making them as often.  Whitewater's TO margin is plus one, to Loras's -1.59.  And the WIAC takes care of the basketball... The WIAC has 4 teams in the top 8 in the country in fewest TO's per game, the IIAC has just two in the top 61, and one of those is Loras.  So, Whitewater is causing more TO's than they have, and they're causing teams that normally DO take care of the ball well to turn it over.  Whitewater has a better FT shooting percentage, and they've shot 129 MORE free throws, making 96 of them.  That's an extra three point's per game, just from the free throw line.  Loras has a better field goal percentage defense than WW, but again, the WIAC shoots better than the IIAC.  Four WIAC teams shoot 50% or better.  No IIAC teams do. 

And finally, let's look at WW's games vs. teams who made the tournament.  They're 2-1 over Point, current #9 team in the country, and WW is ranked #2.  Loras is 0-1 against RV's Wheaton, 1-0 over #22 Chicago, 1-2 against Buena Vista.  No IIAC team has rec'd a top 25 vote all season.

Loras is 0-1 all time in the NCAA tournament.  They dropped their first game last year.  Whitewater made the tourney 2 years ago and at least won a game.  WW's 22-12 all time in the tourney.  The IIAC has been underwhelming in the tournament... Buena Vista is 3-7 all time.  If they win, they, too, could meet a WIAC foe in Stevens Point, which is 17-4 all time in the tourney.

Speaking of Point...  UWSP has always gotten to at least the 2nd round of the playoffs in their 6 NCAA tournament berths, with 5 Sweet 16s, 4 Elite 8's and 2 National Championships.

[birds of prey]

Mr DT, I agree.  Whitewater's athleticism negates great shooting nights.  Look at Saturday night.  Point shot 68% in the first half, and Whitewater led by 3.  They shot 58% for the game, had just 11 TO's, and still lost.

And what Sager says has credence re: the quality of competition.  Historically, the WIAC has decimated non-conference opponents.  During my 4 years playing for Point, we lost one non-conference game, in the NCAA tournament.  Speaking of... look at the WIAC's winning percentage in the NCAA tournament.  It is the highest in D3.  This is due, in large part, to the quality of games played between WIAC foes.  And if you want to check my credibility, I've got two National Championships.

You can look at numbers all you want, but what you really need to look at is the numbers against which the teams are playing.  Loras's three point shooting defense is better than WW's by about half a percentage point.  But WIAC foes shoot the three better than IIAC foes on average.  The IIAC is taking more, but not making them as often.  Whitewater's TO margin is plus one, to Loras's -1.59.  And the WIAC takes care of the basketball... The WIAC has 4 teams in the top 8 in the country in fewest TO's per game, the IIAC has just two in the top 61, and one of those is Loras.  So, Whitewater is causing more TO's than they have, and they're causing teams that normally DO take care of the ball well to turn it over.  Whitewater has a better FT shooting percentage, and they've shot 129 MORE free throws, making 96 of them.  That's an extra three point's per game, just from the free throw line.  Loras has a better field goal percentage defense than WW, but again, the WIAC shoots better than the IIAC.  Four WIAC teams shoot 50% or better.  No IIAC teams do. 

And finally, let's look at WW's games vs. teams who made the tournament.  They're 2-1 over Point, current #9 team in the country, and WW is ranked #2.  Loras is 0-1 against RV's Wheaton, 1-0 over #22 Chicago, 1-2 against Buena Vista.  No IIAC team has rec'd a top 25 vote all season.

Loras is 0-1 all time in the NCAA tournament.  They dropped their first game last year.  Whitewater made the tourney 2 years ago and at least won a game.  WW's 22-12 all time in the tourney.  The IIAC has been underwhelming in the tournament... Buena Vista is 3-7 all time.  If they win, they, too, could meet a WIAC foe in Stevens Point, which is 17-4 all time in the tourney.

Speaking of Point...  UWSP has always gotten to at least the 2nd round of the playoffs in their 6 NCAA tournament berths, with 5 Sweet 16s, 4 Elite 8's and 2 National Championships.

Very impressive, the time you took to look that stuff up is appreciated. However, that is why they play the games. Loras also prides themselves of getting to the free throw line, and they may not cause that many turnovers, but they are experienced as a squad (all five starters together for the second straight year) and last season first round loss is still fresh in their minds. Not to mention 2 highly contested battles on the road against conference foe Buena Vista which sports a very hostile crowd and withstood some highly questionable officiating in the first of those two.

The two losses to the BVU were by a combined three points. Their three conference losses by a combined five points, and they lost to Wheaton by only 7 points in the second game of the season. This Loras squad is ready and we'll just have to wait and see how well these two teams match up before we, or should I say you as WIAC/ Whitewater fans, begin looking ahead to the second round.

[stoutguy]

Mr. Sager,

Not trying to offend you are call you out, but what is your highest level of playing sports?  And which sport(s) where you successful at?  I think that having played a sport at a High level (I had a D1 scholarship to Bucknell but chose to play football) would make an opinion more reliable.  The only way I would agree with you about shooting is if someone is quick; however, I would say that most people (especially in DIII) dont create their own shot; that being said I stand by my point that shooting is shooting.

I sure hope NP gets a win next year (just not against my titans)

Clearly you haven't been around here very long if you're going to try and compare basketball IQ's with Sager.  If you think the fact that you almost played Division I basketball makes you an expert, I've got a head coaching position at Mount Senario College that I'd like to hire you for.

P.S.  And Sager is right.  If quality of defense didn't affect shooting percentages, they why bother working on defense at all.

Right on, Just Bill.  Except, I am a bit concerned about hearing that Senario is going to get back in this thing.  They might have two guys now who might be applying because if my buddy Eddie doesn't get better pretty darn fast here at Stout, we are sending his ass back to Ladysmith.

[OshDude]

This Loras squad is ready and we'll just have to wait and see how well these two teams match up before we, or should I say you as WIAC/ Whitewater fans, begin looking ahead to the second round.

I don't think anyone's looking ahead. I know I'm not. I see LC as a Butler or a Southern Illinois from recent years– a scrappy team with legit shooters at every position, from what I gather. But in my mind, this is a Butler/SIU team that's already in the Elite 8, not the opening round or two (if that makes any sense). LC is playing Memphis right now, not UMass.

It's not that I (we?) don't think LC is good. My posts mirror my respect for the 2008 version of WW more than anything. And the negative karma didn't come from me. Good fans stick up for their teams. Best of luck, and I mean that. But I would be surprised if the margin is in single digits.

[voice]

If teams start thinking because their school has enjoyed success in previous year's NCAA Tournaments that it will translate into success this year - they will be miserably mistaken.
To win games in the tourney it takes 40 minutes of solid offense AND defense.  If that happens, your team is in line to advance.  Rankings mean squat.

[badgerwarhawk]

PS, that's all very interesting but ancient history on March 7, 2008. 

I don't give plus or minus karma.  I think it's stupid.