MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[OshDude]

It's not just UWO, its the entire city of Oshkosh. Not going to lie, it has seen WAY better days. A university can only go as far as the community supports it, and right now UWO is like an island inside Oshkosh. Oh, and it seems each week someone is laying off workers.

On some nights the citizens can go to Kolf and get free UWO tuition. That is if he or she can make a layup, FT, 3 and half-courter in 30 seconds with the pressure of maybe, maybe 500 pairs of eyes strolling to concessions and/or the restrooms. And for $8 (ticket plus one 50/50) those same people can probably walk home with multiple T-shirts, mini basketballs, a free slice of pizza and $36.50 in 50/50 raffle winnings. Add to that the memories that go along with shaking hands with the Titan Lightning Bolt Thing and seeing pretty good basketball and live halftime entertainment. If Kolf is packing 260 fans in there, the Oshkosh citizens have pretty good odds of winning all of this in the Oshkosh Showcase Showdown. UWO students could get all of it for $1, or none-point-zero dollars if they skip the 50/50. There's a definite town/university disconnect. It's more apparent now that TVD has two Oshkosh guys on the roster.

The athletic department is trying with promos and local adverts, but the only time Oshkosh heads to Kolf in numbers is for HS basketball and HS wrestling. Seeing Kolf packed during Osh West/Osh North and HS sectional BB games and a few other one-off events is a shocking departure from the other 350 days on the calendar. Then again there are only 13,000 students and 65,000 residents in Oshkosh. Perhaps if there were more potential fans, Kolf would get 300 for a January MBB game. Yes, even during a break at UWO.

Then again this is like a Dear Abby column that gets published at the same time every year. It's probably one of those things without a solution. Like the old sage TVD said, "It is what it is." If anyone knows "what it is," please contact the UWO athletic department, which has a salaried job waiting for you.

[Greek Tragedy]

Good post DT, I miss ya!  

Anyway, some time ago, someone said that TVD only recruits 3 or 4 players and stops there because he doesn't want a ton of players on his team, or something like that...

If that's true, well then he'll only have "the Big 3" and then a bunch of role players.  You have to recruit a lot and hopefully get half of them.  Then, as the years go on, half of those guys quit or transfer for various reasons.  So, hopefully, by the end of the day, you have 3 or 4 impact players (each CLASS year) that play significant roles for you.  

Bennett and Semling recruited a lot and got a lot of players.  Semling's first year was 2005-2006.  On that roster, there were 8 freshman:  Bobby Kutcha, Jordan Krause, Kevin Grusczynski, Drew Jackson, Khalifa El-Amin, Bryan Beamish, Pete Rortvedt and Jerome Wotachek.  This year, half are still with the team as seniors.  Drew Jackson didn't play this year.  In 2006-2007, there were 5 freshman on the roster and two are still with the team as juniors.  So, you're gonna lose players for various reasons.  

I really hope TVD doesn't concentrate on just a few players each year.  

[Greek Tragedy]

Not that those attendence numbers are accurate, but in Oshkosh's Elite 8 year (2001-2002), they averaged 676 for conference games.

It steadily went up as the year went on.  Nearly 1200 for the Point game, but we know how well they travel.  Close to 1600 against Whitewater for what looks like the WIAC championship game and then 2177 against Ripon, well, they aren't far away. 

Is there that many more things to do in Oshkosh than go see even really good basketball (at that time)...??

[titan2000]

Not that those attendence numbers are accurate, but in Oshkosh's Elite 8 year (2001-2002), they averaged 676 for conference games.

It steadily went up as the year went on.  Nearly 1200 for the Point game, but we know how well they travel.  Close to 1600 against Whitewater for what looks like the WIAC championship game and then 2177 against Ripon, well, they aren't far away. 

Is there that many more things to do in Oshkosh than go see even really good basketball (at that time)...??

Well, the Golden Corral has really stepped it up at their buffet; the Oshkosh populace does have to eat.

[Pioneer Hoops Fan]

What about an even team, in which anyone could be the star of the game? That should be the direction for the future for both the Men's and Women's squads. I know Schumacher is still trying to build, but TVD needs to adjust the way he does things, because the story line of how "Oshkosh has the talent but doesn't get the results" is getting old...quick. 

Sorry for the long ramble. That's all I wanted to get off my chest. Back to real WIAC talk.

That really only works in rare cases.  I think that a good example would be look at the Badger Basketball team this year and last.  This season, they are lacking a star, a go to scorer that in late game situations is looked upon to fuel the fire ala Alando Tucker.  Lately they've relied on a Freshman PG who was seemingly just a fill in player at the start of the Big Ten season to give Hughes a breather. 

Last season, and you may laugh at this, but believe it or not....Brian Butch was the face of that team.  He may not have been scoring the buckets down the stretch, but late in games if he rebounded, deflected a ball, or made a great pass, the play by play and color commentator were talking about how Wisconsin won because Butch scored, defended, rebound, or set up every play.  Michael Flowers as well.  I know there was a stretch last year where 5 different guys, in 5 straight games scored 20 or more in the game.  I'll tell you that Marcus Landry was better last year with those guys playing than he is this year trying to be "The Guy"

I really am sorry for talking Badgers on the WIAC site, but it was the first thing that came to my mind.

The athletic department is trying with promos and local adverts, but the only time Oshkosh heads to Kolf in numbers is for HS basketball and HS wrestling.

I know the athletic department is probably doing its share, but what exactly is Men's Basketball doing?  Do they get into the community and be available for community events, whether it is particpation or community service?  Do they get into the elementary schools and befriend the young student athletes in the community?  I'm only asking.  There was an article in our local paper here about the Men's and Women's basketball teams voluteering at local blood drive.  The article was nothing but good press for both programs.  If they are doing all of that in Oshkosh, then I don't know what else will bring fans.

[bucks]

Whoa.  Lots of info suddenly on UWO including a couple people who appear to have quite a negative slant.  I'd like to see a breakdown of every detail of every WIAC program and then compare.  If Schrimpf was healthy, I doubt this conversation would be taking place.

There are a lot of factors that go into running a good program.  Oshkosh does as good of job as anyone through the years with the resources that they have.  Probably comparable to Platteville the last few years.  Point seems to be on an island in terms of resources.  Whitewater seems to recruit a lot of transfers that have helped them through the years.  Everyone else is below UWO over the last ten years so I'm not going to compare them.

[John Gleich]

I know the athletic department is probably doing its share, but what exactly is Men's Basketball doing?  Do they get into the community and be available for community events, whether it is particpation or community service?  Do they get into the elementary schools and befriend the young student athletes in the community?  I'm only asking.  There was an article in our local paper here about the Men's and Women's basketball teams voluteering at local blood drive.  The article was nothing but good press for both programs.  If they are doing all of that in Oshkosh, then I don't know what else will bring fans.

Does UWO have basketball camps?  One of the ways that Point gets excitement for kids (which gets parents in the seats, too) is by having 9 different basketball camps during the summer.  That enables them to not only get revenue for the program but it also allows them to see potential players first hand, too.

Point also does their radio show at the hilltop restaurant and does various other programs through out the community too.

[titan2000]

I know the athletic department is probably doing its share, but what exactly is Men's Basketball doing?  Do they get into the community and be available for community events, whether it is particpation or community service?  Do they get into the elementary schools and befriend the young student athletes in the community?  I'm only asking.  There was an article in our local paper here about the Men's and Women's basketball teams voluteering at local blood drive.  The article was nothing but good press for both programs.  If they are doing all of that in Oshkosh, then I don't know what else will bring fans.

Does UWO have basketball camps?  One of the ways that Point gets excitement for kids (which gets parents in the seats, too) is by having 9 different basketball camps during the summer.  That enables them to not only get revenue for the program but it also allows them to see potential players first hand, too.

Point also does their radio show at the hilltop restaurant and does various other programs through out the community too.

Ah, the Hilltop.  I met a girl there some years back.  She gave me more than I knew at the time.  I probably would get back on the horse again but I would be more careful this time around to make sure she wore a saddle. 

[bucks]

Doesn't everyone run basketball camps?  Doesn't everyone run community outreach?  UWO has never drawn great even with their best teams.  That has more to do with the makeup of the community than anything. 

It is a upper level WIAC program that had a key injury this year.  With yet another strong recruiting class, it will be near the top again soon.

Any word on why Stout, River Falls, La Crosse and Eau Claire aren't contending every year?  We already know about Superior's location.  I'm sure it has nothing more than finding quality players that want to bust their butts for four years and are fortunate enough to stay healthy.

[titan2000]

I called the mayor of Oshkosh and he told me the City Council is on this as a top priority for 2009, after they chase away a few more developers. 

[cubs]

With yet another strong recruiting class, it will be near the top again soon.

If everything plays out, you are absolutley correct about UWO having a strong recruiting class.  I'm going to save the details for after the season, but just from taking a look at Mark Miller's Top 50 player rankings for the 2009 class, UWO will be represented well if things don't change.

[Gregory Sager]

The issue that I have with this line of thinking, though Mr. Y, is that at UWSP, students are in the dorms the first TWO years.  Now, that's not 4... though some do stay the whole time... but it still is more significant than a true commuter school or one where kids are only required 1 year...

Yeah, in terms of student support two years on campus is better than none, but it's not as good as four years on campus. Chuck's point, which is that resident vs. commuter is a much better indicator of potential student support for athletics (or any other extracurricular activity, for that matter) than is private vs. public, is right on the money.

As a general rule of thumb, commuter-based schools have a very hard time drawing student support for athletics. And at schools that have mixed populations (e.g., North Park, North Central, and Elmhurst), it's the resident students who are in the stands cheering on game nights. Meanwhile, the commuter students are either working an evening job somewhere, or they're out with their friends or they're sitting at home watching television. That's not an indictment of commuters. They tend to be more pragmatic about how they spend their time and money, and their priorities simply lie elsewhere.

I know that I'm painting with a pretty broad brush here, but for the vast majority of commuter students a college education is nothing more than a means to an end. For resident students, it's four of the most intensely socialized and, well, tribal, years of their lives.

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to this... but I don't think your argument flies here.  Point has roughly about 8000 students.  Just over 3000 live on campus.  There are roughly about 1500 new students each year, so that "fits" in terms of numbers.  Now, of course, some students will commute from the community... and some students will stay in the dorms for 4* years, so it all evens out.  After the two years in the dorms, kids move off campus... mostly to the residential zone within about 3 blocks of campus.  Yes, some move farther away... but lets say that half are in this area... that's another 1500 kids within 3 blocks.

But... most kids aren't finished in 4 years anymore, especially at a public school like UWSP.  So there's another 750 (half of the 1500 in year 5) within 3 blocks.  That's about 5250 of the 8000 students that live within about 3 blocks of campus.  Yes, they're not in a dorm setting... but they also aren't "commuters."  And, like I said, there are plenty of commuters who go to UWSP... I'd say that there probably were 2-3 in every class I was in.  But my classes were mainly about 30 students.  That is about 1%... less than 1000, and there's more then enough leeway in my 5250 number for that!

I would argue that those former resident students who are now living in off-campus apartments immediately adjacent to the UWSP campus are commuters only in a technical sense. They undoubtedly are much more closely tied to the school's social life and extracurriculars, on average, than are the students who fit the traditional commuter designation (four years of attending classes while living at home).

[bucks]

cubs,

care to drop any names?

[Gregory Sager]

And their attendance is one of the worst in NCAA D3 basketball.

UWO's average attendance isn't even close to being one of the worst in D3. There are lots of D3 schools that only rarely draw a crowd in the triple digits.

If you're talking about average attendance as compared to undergraduate enrollment, then, yeah, UWO's one of the worst in D3. But the large size of most WIAC schools will skew those numbers for just about every one of the league's basketball programs, even UWSP's.

[bucks]

Cubs,

I don't have any inside scoop but just lookin at Millers top 50 and I'm guessing here, that area names like Wojahn, Kitkowski, Giordana, Ford, Royston and Free have to be some that are looked at as attractive with Kitkowski receiving top billing in that group by far.