MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[badgerwarhawk]

The WARHAWKS loss to Whitworth didn't cause them to drop as much as I thought it might.  Perhaps it's offset by the win over Point and Point's rise in the poll. 

[02 Warhawk]

The WARHAWKS loss to Whitworth didn't cause them to drop as much as I thought it might.  Perhaps it's offset by the win over Point and Point's rise in the poll.  

That and the fact the two teams above them (last week) lost as well.

[wcbsas]

I'm wondering if the potential transfer might be John Benkoske an Oshkosh West graduate playing at Loyola.  He's a 6'9" sophomore who is not playing a lot at the moment.

Per the radio pregame show against Viterbo, The transfer's name is Ross Forman.  He played 1 year at Wyoming and 2 years at Loyola.  He is from  Minneapolis MN.

(modified by GS for formatting)

If this is the guy ... he's not going to help UWSP much in the post.  He's more of a wing shooter kind of kid.  Frankly that isn't where UWSP needs help. 

I'm not so sure...  Yes, Point doesn't have a dirth of big, beefy bodies inside... but they are much more inside-oriented than in years past.  .....

Very impressive research and information ... presented well.  My only comment is that a reduction in 3 point shots doesn't mean the team has become more inside-oriented. 

Remember over this same time period the 3-point line has been moved back.  Also UWSP graduated one of its more prolific shooters in recent history.

The guys shooting now are more mid-range oriented.  Its not any coincidence that the top 3 scorers in PPG are also the top 3 shooters from 3 point range (FGA).

Don't get me wrong anyone who can consistently shoot from long range should be a welcome addition.  But the intial enthusiasim and speculation on the new addition was about a 6'8" guy who played at two different D1 schools.  I don't see anyone at 6'8" and 220lbs stepping on the court and taking minutes from Hurd, Hoezel and Krull.

[frodotwo]

I'm wondering if the potential transfer might be John Benkoske an Oshkosh West graduate playing at Loyola.  He's a 6'9" sophomore who is not playing a lot at the moment.

Per the radio pregame show against Viterbo, The transfer's name is Ross Forman.  He played 1 year at Wyoming and 2 years at Loyola.  He is from  Minneapolis MN.

(modified by GS for formatting)

If this is the guy ... he's not going to help UWSP much in the post.  He's more of a wing shooter kind of kid.  Frankly that isn't where UWSP needs help. 

I'm not so sure...  Yes, Point doesn't have a dirth of big, beefy bodies inside... but they are much more inside-oriented than in years past.  .....

Very impressive research and information ... presented well.  My only comment is that a reduction in 3 point shots doesn't mean the team has become more inside-oriented. 

Remember over this same time period the 3-point line has been moved back.  Also UWSP graduated one of its more prolific shooters in recent history.

The guys shooting now are more mid-range oriented.  Its not any coincidence that the top 3 scorers in PPG are also the top 3 shooters from 3 point range (FGA).

Don't get me wrong anyone who can consistently shoot from long range should be a welcome addition.  But the intial enthusiasim and speculation on the new addition was about a 6'8" guy who played at two different D1 schools.  I don't see anyone at 6'8" and 220lbs stepping on the court and taking minutes from Hurd, Hoezel and Krull.

Not unless he can play solid defense and rebound. He's tall and looks like he has long arms, so maybe he can do both.  Here's what his last full season of play looked like:

                    Gp-Gs  Min    FG     3Pt    FT    Reb Ast   St   BS  PPG
  2007-08     30-13  22.2  .431  .294  .750  2.7  0.7  14   6   5.4

and latest season (abbreviated by injury)

  2008-09      19-6   20.5  .406  .294  .692  2.5  0.8   6   4   3.9

Role player at best, but with height and length. I hope he doesn't take minutes from Jordan Brezinski, who is developing nicely as the big off the bench.

[John Gleich]

I'm wondering if the potential transfer might be John Benkoske an Oshkosh West graduate playing at Loyola.  He's a 6'9" sophomore who is not playing a lot at the moment.

Per the radio pregame show against Viterbo, The transfer's name is Ross Forman.  He played 1 year at Wyoming and 2 years at Loyola.  He is from  Minneapolis MN.

(modified by GS for formatting)

If this is the guy ... he's not going to help UWSP much in the post.  He's more of a wing shooter kind of kid.  Frankly that isn't where UWSP needs help. 

I'm not so sure...  Yes, Point doesn't have a dirth of big, beefy bodies inside... but they are much more inside-oriented than in years past.  .....

Very impressive research and information ... presented well.  My only comment is that a reduction in 3 point shots doesn't mean the team has become more inside-oriented. 

Remember over this same time period the 3-point line has been moved back.  Also UWSP graduated one of its more prolific shooters in recent history.

The guys shooting now are more mid-range oriented.  Its not any coincidence that the top 3 scorers in PPG are also the top 3 shooters from 3 point range (FGA).

Don't get me wrong anyone who can consistently shoot from long range should be a welcome addition.  But the intial enthusiasim and speculation on the new addition was about a 6'8" guy who played at two different D1 schools.  I don't see anyone at 6'8" and 220lbs stepping on the court and taking minutes from Hurd, Hoezel and Krull.

I haven't seen these guys play yet... so you very well could be right.  It has just seemed (from the radio broadcasts) that there's been a lot more in terms of scoring in the paint this year.

Now, that being said, it doesn't necessarily mean it's coming from a back-to-the-basket post guy.  Jordan Brezinzki seems to be the closest Point has to a true b-2-b guy, though it might be Hurd... Hoelzel and Krull seem to be quicker off the dribble and face-up guys or guys who will move to an open spot on dribble penetration.  And the dribble penetration is certainly key.  It seems like there is more dribble penetration to score or score and dump inside rather than to draw and kick this year... which would mean more inside than outside shooting.

I guess I should have said more in-the-paint scoring... maybe that clarifies things.  Or maybe not.

And I don't discount the wider 3-point arc... but I'm honestly not sure how much it has affected things.  Look at the numbers over the last 5 years...

05-06
224/604 37.1%

06-07
309/744 41.5%

07-08
247/643 38.4%


08-09
226/604 37.4%

09-10
61/160 38.1%


Purely looking at those numbers, tell me which year the 3 pt line was extended.  You can't.  The thing is, most 3 point shooters have shot 3 pointers a foot or two (or several, in Pete Rortvedt's case) behind the line already.  Now, that may still move them back another foot (from 2 feet behind 19'9" to 2 feet behind 20'9") or maybe it won't, I dunno.

Honestly, the only player that I've ever played against or with that seemed to, intentionally, get as close to the 3 point line as possible was Brian Bauer.  He made a bundle of long 2's for stepping on the line, and yet still made 61 3's in his career.  I think a guy like that might have seen a dip in his productivity, possibly... but I'm not sure about other shooters.

I look again at Dan Tillema (9/11 [82%] from 3) and Jerrel Harris (12/25 [48%]).  These guys both did not have the benefit of an extra year practicing and playing with the deeper 3 pointer... and yet, they're still leading the team in 3 point proficiency.  Hurd has 1 more make than Harris... and several more attempts.  I wouldn't call him a pure shooter though... more of a scorer expanding his game, along the lines of Jon Krull (that's not to take away their shooting abilities, both could/can shoot, but their game is multi-faceted and that's why it's hard to guard them).

I'm not sure if this digression really said anything... but it seems to me that there isn't much affect on the 3 point line being deeper if 1) the top two shooters are guys who didn't play college basketball last year and 2) if percentages are roughly the same, which they are.

I'm going to try to look for some stories/studies about last year's results for 3 point shooting vs. years past.  I don't think there will be a definitive answer after just one year (not a large enough sample size to be significant), but there may be some initial reports that could begin to shed some light on things.


A couple of other interesting things... If you look at Point's assists, they've gone down this year vs. the previous 3 and about equal to 4 years ago (this is the per-game avg):

05-06
14.44

06-07
17.21

07-08
15.67

08-09
15.24

09-10
14.5

Again, there are lots of factors that go into this... but when I see a higher overall shooter % and a lower assist average, that tells me that individual players are making plays as opposed to using excellent team basketball to break down a defense and get a pass for a score.  That's not to say they're not playing excellent team basketball (I haven't even begun to talk about defense yet, but I'll just say that Point is back near the top of the country in ppg and defensive shooting %).  Again, I haven't seen them play but I've listened to almost all the games... and they've been described as a quicker team who likes to take it off the dribble.  If you can get all the way to the basket and score, then you don't need to make extra passes for buckets.  I think it still just says that this team is differently oriented than in years past.

And yes, I probably could have said that without a 5 point sermon.  But this was more fun!

[phoenix_rising]

Jeezus H. Keereist, Point Special. Are you a professional statistical analyst or just a waaay crazy geek?

[chmarx]

PS keeps us honest!

[Just Bill]

Jeezus H. Keereist, Point Special. Are you a professional statistical analyst or just a waaay crazy geek?

I'll wager the latter.

[phoenix_rising]

PS keeps us honest!

...because numbers don't lie.

Actually,  deeply admire the ability to pull together that much information AND to be able to draw conclusions from it.

[John Gleich]

Uh... both?  I'll admit I'm a waaay crazy geek, but also my professional title is "measurement analyst."

I honestly haven't done too much hard core analysis...  I mean, I haven't posted any graphs or charts or anything (though, yes, I have thought about it...)

It seems to me that there's a conclusion to be made here that's close... but I haven't quite grasped it.  

I've gotten more and more interested in basketball statistics since graduating, especially since Point started putting up some really great numbers (see 06-07 for the best, but the last 5 have been really good).  

I'm interested in seeing what outcomes moving back the 3 point line has.  I've found a few posts thus far, like this one.  Now, these are D-I results, not D-III... but avg attempts are down two full attempts per game.  I wonder about the makes... If the two attempts were bad shots that aren't taken now, maybe the percentage went up.  This isn't likely... in general, a deeper shot should be tougher.

Check out this site HERE.  It has a shot chart from 2008.  The shooting percentage peaked at the 3 point line, interestingly.  It's worth a look.

Actually, once you read the article, the shooting percentage DOESN'T peak at the 3 point line... under 5 feet isn't included in that graph.  Layups and other shots inside 5 feet are over 60%.  Otherwise... that graph was way wrong!

By the way, I officially want to say that I don't like Point/Oshkosh's 8:00 start tonight... I got really confused for a few minutes there when the game didn't start.

It doesn't sound like it will start right at 8:00 either...  The women's game is over, but I dunno when it finished... OK, the Men's pregame just started!

[wizbegs1304]

What was up with the late start to UWSP/UWO?

[John Gleich]

What was up with the late start to UWSP/UWO?

Both Point/Oshkosh and River Falls/Stout played double headers tonight... women at 6, men at 8.  RF/Stout started just about 20 minutes ago.

[phoenix_rising]

OK, so drawing conclusions from LaCrosse-Superior stats, I would say that neither team relied on balanced scoring. Five players between the teams stand out, and generally speaking, Jake Smith didn't get much help from his souptown players until the latter part of the second half. That's my gripe about Superior. Too few step up and contribute. Why? Do they go into games assuming they will lose? Does Culy get gun shy after the first couple of misses and then not shoot again until it's crunch time, ergo, too late?

Marcus Helland seemed to be absent, which is unlike him. I have to wonder about that. Greg Roeder didn't carry his weight, and I thought he was doing pretty well in earlier games. Ben Aalfs has been a pleasant surprise so far, but it looks like tonight he didn't do much more than foul.

But Jake Smith. I wish we had five more of him. The guy works hard and plays creatively. LaX looks to have a good team, so I'm taking tonight's game as hopeful. Superior stayed with them.

[John Gleich]

Point survives at home against Oshkosh 73-67. 

[John Gleich]

Oshkosh shoots 10/19 (53%) from 3... half of their buckets were 3's as they shoot 20/42 (48%) for the game from the field.  Point made 4/8(50%) and 24/45 from the field (53%)

Point ended up with 8 steals on 13 Oshkosh turnovers.  Oshkosh with just 2 on only 6 Pointer turnovers for the game.