MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[cubs]

Maybe part of the reason Ted's quotes really don't bother me is that I played for a WIAC coach who did the same thing at times.  As a player you had two choices, believe what was written and let it get to you, or get a little more mentally tough and use it for some extra motivation. 

More times than not, the TEAM would use it as motivation and go on a successful run.

[wcbsas]

True honest question ... if we were to do a poll of the best coaches in the WIAC ... where would TVD fall?  Certainly IMO it would be in the lower half.

[cubs]

Cubs:
No offense but I just don't see why Oshkosh isn't in the top echelon of the NCAA every year like Point, Platteville, Whotewater, etc.   Good facilities, 10,000 students, modest admission standards, and they have gotten the players over the years. 

I'll give you Point and Whitewater, but it wasn't that long ago that Platteville was struggling (double digit losses in six of the last eight seasons, including a losing record in 2003.)  In comparison, Oshkosh had ONE season of double digit losses over the same time period.)

[cubs]

True honest question ... if we were to do a poll of the best coaches in the WIAC ... where would TVD fall?  Certainly IMO it would be in the lower half.

You are probably correct....  but it would be people's opinions and nothing more.  Buchanan would probably rank ahead of him based on people's opinions, but what has he accomplished at this point to deserve a higher billing?

[Pioneer Hoops Fan]

I didn't think TVD's comments were a bit humorous.  Sounds to me he is packing in the year...."It is what it is" comment makes me ask the question; Can the same comment be applied to his coaching?  How about we need to recruit better players?  Who's fault is that?  How about retaining the players you have on campus?  TVD has a long history here, I know.  However, has he run out his string?  A good coach, IMO, doesn't make comments like that.  How can the players think anything other than they can't compete.  This is the WIAC..."expect the unexpected" is the mantra in this conference and each team has a reason to BELIEVE night in and night out and the coach should promote that.

There is more to this story, I have to believe.  I came here wanting to ask the same question about Tillema and his change of heart.  He could have really helped this team as he can play as a big guard or a forward. Would have really balanced this team.

Believe it or not, the coach isn't the only reason kids decide not to play or transfer at this level.  Could be they are burned out, academic reasons, girlfriends (believe it or not).  The big three are good, and there is no doubt about that, but IMHO...Oshkosh just isn't that good to begin with as a team. 

Marsh does everything for them, probably drives the bus on road trips too based on the rest of his statistics.  They're not very good defensively, they are too one-dimensional (the big three) on offense, and his roll players don't seem to know their roles or can't execute their roles.  Is that on TVD?  Yes it is, because he has brought those kids in to do those things.  In the same instance though, you can preach and preach and preach, but if it still isn't working frustration will set in and probably cause a guy to react the way he did after the game the other night. 

I personally dont see anything wrong with the comments.  He knew coming in he had no chance at winning the conference.  He didn't name names, so no individuals were thrown under the bus.  My guess is that what he said in the paper, most of it was said in the locker room.  Not being said was the last quote about recruiting, but pleading for his other guys to step up when two of his stars go 3-19 on the night and don't crack double digits.  He's evaluating his team, himself and staff included.  I'm sure he knows exactly what he needs to do to fill the voids that are there and will be open at seasons end.  Recruiting isn't the easiest thing in the world to do, especially now with so many AAU programs, and some of those kids thinking its scholarship or nothing. Schrimpf would've helped this team a ton this year.  That fourth dependable guy to help when things are not going well.

I think Oshkosh will be alright, because TVD has had a knack for developing players over their careers.  The young guys playing now, will be much better three years from now when they winding down their senior seasons.

Cubs:
No offense but I just don't see why Oshkosh isn't in the top echelon of the NCAA every year like Point, Platteville, Whotewater, etc.   Good facilities, 10,000 students, modest admission standards, and they have gotten the players over the years. 

I'll give you Point and Whitewater, but it wasn't that long ago that Platteville was struggling (double digit losses in six of the last eight seasons, including a losing record in 2003.)  In comparison, Oshkosh had ONE season of double digit losses over the same time period.)

Look at the Badgers this season.  Think Bo Ryan is a bad coach because of the way things are working out this year?

[badgerwarhawk]

True honest question ... if we were to do a poll of the best coaches in the WIAC ... where would TVD fall?  Certainly IMO it would be in the lower half.

Only if you used popular opinion because if you used W/L percentage he fares much better.   In fact, using that criteria TVD has the third highest W/L percentage among active coaches.  His .657 only ranks behind Semling's .767 and Miller's .749.  Winning is what a coach is suppose to do isn't it?

He's having a below average year but career wise he ranks among the leaders in the league. 

These numbers are through the 2007-2008 season.

[cubs]

Cubs:
No offense but I just don't see why Oshkosh isn't in the top echelon of the NCAA every year like Point, Platteville, Whotewater, etc.   Good facilities, 10,000 students, modest admission standards, and they have gotten the players over the years. 

I'll give you Point and Whitewater, but it wasn't that long ago that Platteville was struggling (double digit losses in six of the last eight seasons, including a losing record in 2003.)  In comparison, Oshkosh had ONE season of double digit losses over the same time period.)

Look at the Badgers this season.  Think Bo Ryan is a bad coach because of the way things are working out this year?

No I do not....  What I was getting at is UWO's consistency over the past eight years is better than every school except Point and Whitewater.

[cubs]

These aren't motivational statements, these are dejected statements... statements throwing in the towel.  "We're just not good enough" won't win games against the conference's big three... and with an attitude like that, it won't win too many games against the other 4 teams, either.

Really?  Here I thought I saw they were 4-1 against the other FIVE teams in the WIAC this season...

[Pioneer Hoops Fan]

Cubs:
No offense but I just don't see why Oshkosh isn't in the top echelon of the NCAA every year like Point, Platteville, Whotewater, etc.   Good facilities, 10,000 students, modest admission standards, and they have gotten the players over the years. 

I'll give you Point and Whitewater, but it wasn't that long ago that Platteville was struggling (double digit losses in six of the last eight seasons, including a losing record in 2003.)  In comparison, Oshkosh had ONE season of double digit losses over the same time period.)

Look at the Badgers this season.  Think Bo Ryan is a bad coach because of the way things are working out this year?

No I do not....  What I was getting at is UWO's consistency over the past eight years is better than every school except Point and Whitewater.

My bad, I wasn't really directing that to you Cubs.  I mis-clicked the wrong post to quote to insert in my post.  I agree with you.  

[wcbsas]

True honest question ... if we were to do a poll of the best coaches in the WIAC ... where would TVD fall?  Certainly IMO it would be in the lower half.

Only if you used popular opinion because if you used W/L percentage he fares much better.   In fact, using that criteria TVD has the third highest W/L percentage among active coaches.  His .657 only ranks behind Semling's .767 and Miller's .749.  Winning is what a coach is suppose to do isn't it?

He's having a below average year but career wise he ranks among the leaders in the league. 

These numbers are through the 2007-2008 season.

BUT ... using your Bo Ryan analogy ... this year he was expected to have a down year, the year's he won (Alando Tucker ...) he did so because (a) he should've and (b) because he team exceeded expectations.

DSA, Marsh and Miller are as good of a three-some as there is in the WIAC.  He should be winning with this group and not only are they not competing with the big guys but they're losing games they should be winning.

[wcbsas]

True honest question ... if we were to do a poll of the best coaches in the WIAC ... where would TVD fall?  Certainly IMO it would be in the lower half.

Only if you used popular opinion because if you used W/L percentage he fares much better.   In fact, using that criteria TVD has the third highest W/L percentage among active coaches.  His .657 only ranks behind Semling's .767 and Miller's .749.  Winning is what a coach is suppose to do isn't it?

He's having a below average year but career wise he ranks among the leaders in the league. 

These numbers are through the 2007-2008 season.

But Buchanon had less to start with and has made UW-Superior a viable team ... primarily through relentless recruiting.

[wcbsas]

These aren't motivational statements, these are dejected statements... statements throwing in the towel.  "We're just not good enough" won't win games against the conference's big three... and with an attitude like that, it won't win too many games against the other 4 teams, either.

Really?  Here I thought I saw they were 4-1 against the other FIVE teams in the WIAC this season...

They are also 0-5 against the top 3 WIAC teams AND lost 3 non-conference games that they shouldn't have lost.

[UWBadgers]

True honest question ... if we were to do a poll of the best coaches in the WIAC ... where would TVD fall?  Certainly IMO it would be in the lower half.

Only if you used popular opinion because if you used W/L percentage he fares much better.   In fact, using that criteria TVD has the third highest W/L percentage among active coaches.  His .657 only ranks behind Semling's .767 and Miller's .749.  Winning is what a coach is suppose to do isn't it?

He's having a below average year but career wise he ranks among the leaders in the league. 

These numbers are through the 2007-2008 season.

BUT ... using your Bo Ryan analogy ... this year he was expected to have a down year, the year's he won (Alando Tucker ...) he did so because (a) he should've and (b) because he team exceeded expectations.

DSA, Marsh and Miller are as good of a three-some as there is in the WIAC.  He should be winning with this group and not only are they not competing with the big guys but they're losing games they should be winning.

What games did Oshkosh loose this year that they should have won? Oshkosh is 9-8 this season against D3 teams (minus NAIA Dordt and Clarke game). Of those 8 losses, two are against #3 Stevens Point, two against #4 Platteville, one against #6 Whitewater, one against #14 St. Norberts, one at  #15 Augustana and one against River Falls. Plus a win at #24 Carroll.

That leaves Oshkosh 1 - 7 against top 25 teams (0-7 against top 15 teams in the country) and 8-1 against everyone else. So what games are they loosing that they should be winning? The only game they "should have won" would have been on the road against a better than expected River Falls team.

TVD knew early on this wasn't an Oshkosh team that was going to win the conference or crack the top 3. Stevens Point, Platteville and Whitewater are elite teams in the country. The goal was to finish 4th and they are/were in great shape to do so.

[UWBadgers]

TVD's quotes in the local paper after the Platteville "game" are pretty good.

love the quotes in the article, esp. about how Plt 'got up in our grill' and calling Skemp a 'big ox'! 

http://www.thenorthwestern.com/article/20090129/OSH02/90128207

TVD comments are funny, to a point.  Then he says he needs to recruit guys to get back where they were.  When the hell were they ever anywhere, really, except for the one year Dvorak carried the whole team inclusing TVD on his back into the tourney?  

I'd say go fishing and let someone else get it done if its too tough for you.  

I don't think the quotes were all that funny either.  Yours, Titan, though, were pretty cute.  I don't like a coach calling out his team in the paper with a quote like "That's why we have to recruit better players".  That is an unfair shot at his players and an admission that he is failing as a recruiter.  Our Ed Andrist got some criticism recently because he said something like "we just are not good enough to compete with the upper teams."  Some people around here didn't like that either, but in this case, like Ted said, "It is what it is".  It is a tough call for a coach to mix defending your team and recruiting and being honest with where you are at.  Sometimes how you say it, and whom you say it to is very important.

I thought they were humorous in an "I can't believe he said that in the paper" sort of way too.  Doesn't sound like he has too much faith in his team.  If I was a young guy on that team, the writing isn't just on the wall, it's in the PAPER that he's going to be looking elsewhere for his talent. 

These statements are completely different than saying that they're not getting production from guys other than the "big 3."  These aren't motivational statements, these are dejected statements... statements throwing in the towel.  "We're just not good enough" won't win games against the conference's big three... and with an attitude like that, it won't win too many games against the other 4 teams, either.

I was at the UWSP-UWO game last weekend and I came away less than impressed with TVD.

One could argue that UWO has the two best players in the conference in Marsh and DS-A yet they're a mid-level WIAC team.

UWO had a halftime lead and was right with UWSP midway through the second half.  UWSP went on a bit of a run and TVD did nothing to stop it.  He should have called a couple of TOs but just let the run continue.  His substitution patterns are questionable.

Even moreso you have to question what is happening off the court.  Why would Bryce Welch leave UWO to transfer to D2 Winona State to be a bench-warmer?  Why would Dan Tillema transfer to UWO (from D2 UM-Duluth) and then not play basketball at all?  Why do most teams have 15+ players sitting on their bench but UWO suits up only 11?  These are but a few examples of something that is amiss.

Lastly ... the issue at UWO THIS year is not a talent issue.  Between Marsh, DS-A and Miller they have three very seasoned established players.  Their bench may not compare to UWSP or UWW talent-wise but it isn't too shabby either.

Why would Bryce Welch leave UWO to transfer to D2 Winona State to be a bench-warmer?

Answer- Because he was offered a scholarship and gets to sit on the bench at Winona State for free.

Why would Dan Tillema transfer to UWO and then not play basketball at all?

Answer- Dan Tillema was never on the roster at UWO, not last year or this year. He was burnt out from playing basketball 365 days a year for his whole life and it was no longer worth it for him. He wanted to be a normal college student and the basketball commitment was no longer with it to him.

Why doesn't Oshkosh have 15+ players on the roster?

Answer- He doesn't over recurit like some teams. He finds the two or three guys he wants becuase he feels and if they are the best fit for his program and then he goes out and gets them. He's a straight shooter and he's not going to give recruits the answer they want to hear, but the truth. From time to time he gets burnt a little bit like this season, but more times than not over the past 20 years, it worked out for him and the Oshkosh program.

[wcbsas]

Why would Bryce Welch leave UWO to transfer to D2 Winona State to be a bench-warmer?

Answer- Because he was offered a scholarship and gets to sit on the bench at Winona State for free.

Wrong-Because he's still paying for a big part of his education.  Winona State doesn't give full rides ... not to Jonte Flowers and certainly not to Bryce Welch AND in 2-1/2 years he's played 254 minutes for an average of 4 minutes per game.  ANY true athlete is going to want to play and not sit on someone's bench!  He left UWO because of the coach.

Why would Dan Tillema transfer to UWO and then not play basketball at all?

Answer- Dan Tillema was never on the roster at UWO, not last year or this year. He was burnt out from playing basketball 365 days a year for his whole life and it was no longer worth it for him. He wanted to be a normal college student and the basketball commitment was no longer with it to him.

Maybe-But he did practice with the team last season and throughout the off-season, he rooms with another basketball player.  And for such an extra-ordinary talent to be sitting out seems to me potentially indicative of something else.

Why doesn't Oshkosh have 15+ players on the roster?

Answer- He doesn't over recurit like some teams. He finds the two or three guys he wants becuase he feels and if they are the best fit for his program and then he goes out and gets them. He's a straight shooter and he's not going to give recruits the answer they want to hear, but the truth. From time to time he gets burnt a little bit like this season, but more times than not over the past 20 years, it worked out for him and the Oshkosh program.

Don't buy that answer-The ELITE programs have 20 guys on their roster.  They have kids willingly grey-shirt for an opportunity to play down the road.  They develop their talent.  UWSP has guys like Mike Griffin spending a year learning from Matt Moses ... just like that kid did two years ago.