MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[wcbsas]

What games did Oshkosh loose this year that they should have won? Oshkosh is 9-8 this season against D3 teams (minus NAIA Dordt and Clarke game). Of those 8 losses, two are against #3 Stevens Point, two against #4 Platteville, one against #6 Whitewater, one against #14 St. Norberts, one at  #15 Augustana and one against River Falls. Plus a win at #24 Carroll.

That leaves Oshkosh 1 - 7 against top 25 teams (0-7 against top 15 teams in the country) and 8-1 against everyone else. So what games are they loosing that they should be winning? The only game they "should have won" would have been on the road against a better than expected River Falls team.

TVD knew early on this wasn't an Oshkosh team that was going to win the conference or crack the top 3. Stevens Point, Platteville and Whitewater are elite teams in the country. The goal was to finish 4th and they are/were in great shape to do so.

My point is UWO should be one of those elite teams.  Seckar-Anderson, Marsh and Miller are as good of a threesome as anyone has in this conference including UWSP, UWP and UWW.  They SHOULDN'T be 0-7 against them!

The team IS underperforming this year ... shouldn't some of that be on the coach?

[John Gleich]

These aren't motivational statements, these are dejected statements... statements throwing in the towel.  "We're just not good enough" won't win games against the conference's big three... and with an attitude like that, it won't win too many games against the other 4 teams, either.

Really?  Here I thought I saw they were 4-1 against the other FIVE teams in the WIAC this season...

Good thing I wasn't a math major... oh, wait...


I'm just talking about what statements like this can do to a team.  And to underclassmen who can normally use motivational quotes in a bit of a down year as motivation... And these aren't motivational statements.  They're "I give up" statements.

It kinda sounds like TVD needs a hug.

[cubs]

My point is UWO should be one of those elite teams.  Seckar-Anderson, Marsh and Miller are as good of a threesome as anyone has in this conference including UWSP, UWP and UWW. 

Last time I checked, there are FIVE players on the court at a given time for each team.  Are UWO's "Big 3" the best in the WIAC?  Possibly....  However, are their starting five the best in the WIAC?  I don't think so... 

There is a reason teams are able to double-team Marsh or DSA in the post, and Miller outside.  They will leave the other two guys on the floor open to shoot instead, knowing the other guys won't shoot, and if they do the odds of a missed shot increase.  This is REALLY where the injury to Schrimpf hurts.  He is a spot up shooter, and deadly at that (46% as a freshman in 100 attempts.)  Put him on the floor for 30 minutes a game with this group, and I think UWO has a few more victories.

[John Gleich]

No offense but I just don't see why Oshkosh isn't in the top echelon of the NCAA every year like Point, Platteville, Whotewater, etc.   

Unlike others who commented earlier, Pville is an upper echelon team.  Just look at the banners when you walk in the gym.  Yes, they had some down years, but they split the conference title with Point the year that UWSP was defending the national championship.  And they've been good ever since.

Good facilities, 10,000 students, modest admission standards,

Unfortunately these types of things don't differentiate them from the rest of the WIAC

and they have gotten the players over the years. 

... while they've had good players, have they been any better than those at the other WIAC schools?  And what makes a player "better?"  I think even really good players would have given up personal accolades to be on a good team, but maybe I'm off base.

They just haven't converted.  And 500 fans is a travesty.

I'm about to get on a soap box... but I don't think that any of the WIAC schools get the attendance that they deserve.  I mean, look at the student populations at these schools just don't get behind their teams.  Yes, some do, and I when it occurs, it's a thing of beauty.  Point's students have gotten behind various teams at various times... but by and large, they've just shown up here and there... it has been the Stevens Point community that has kept UWSP near the top of the country in attendance.

I am one of them about half the time so don't tell me I am just a lurker on these boards.   I've just found the basketball in the MWC a lot more entertaining.   

For whatever reason, the students seem to have more of a community at private schools... and the student sections are organized and in to the games.  I've mentioned it before, but when we went to Gustavus Adolphus in the '03-04 season, their organization was a thing of beauty.  And they had a good showing in Point the year before against a decidedly partisan crowd.

As for Oshkosh hoops, this is all I'll say now or in the future on the topic-- until they win a conference title they are a bust in my book.  But the newspaper articles are a treat. 

That's the rub on Oshkosh... though they did split with Point and Whitewater in '02.  The conference has had many dominant teams over the years... from Point more recently, with Whitewater, Platteville in the 90's, Point in the mid 80's, Eau Claire in the 70's to early 80's... It seems like success begets success... but that doesn't account for teams that simply have one year of "success" like River Falls in '04.  There's more to success than conference championships... in '03, it was Oshkosh that made it to the Elite 8, not Stevens Point, who ran away with the league by several games... in '04, it was Point who won the national championship, though River Falls won the conf title (still upset that we got swept by Superior and were denied championship #5 in a row, but I'll take the national championship instead), and last year, Point made it to the second round when it was Whitewater who won the conference.  Just a thought...

[Mr. Ypsi]

PS: "For whatever reason, the students seem to have more of a community at private schools"

I'm betting this is more a combination of living on campus and sheer numbers, rather than public vs. private.  At a school of <3,000, everyone on campus, you get to know EVERYONE (at least by sight, if not actual interaction); once you get beyond a few thousand, especially if many are commuters, that link breaks down.  I'd bet that NYU (private) is more like 'public' schools in this regard, than they are to 'private', while Northern Michigan U (public) is probably just the reverse.

But I get (and agree with) the point you were making.

[John Gleich]

The issue that I have with this line of thinking, though Mr. Y, is that at UWSP, students are in the dorms the first TWO years.  Now, that's not 4... though some do stay the whole time... but it still is more significant than a true commuter school or one where kids are only required 1 year...

[John Gleich]

Why doesn't Oshkosh have 15+ players on the roster?

Answer- He doesn't over recurit like some teams. He finds the two or three guys he wants becuase he feels and if they are the best fit for his program and then he goes out and gets them. He's a straight shooter and he's not going to give recruits the answer they want to hear, but the truth. From time to time he gets burnt a little bit like this season, but more times than not over the past 20 years, it worked out for him and the Oshkosh program.

Don't buy that answer-The ELITE programs have 20 guys on their roster.  They have kids willingly grey-shirt for an opportunity to play down the road.  They develop their talent.  UWSP has guys like Mike Griffin spending a year learning from Matt Moses ... just like that kid did two years ago.

The honest to goodness fact is that guys who start off as freshmen don't always finish their basketball careers in their senior year.  For whatever reason... whether their priorities get changed or they don't want to put in the time commitment or whether it is more difficult than they thought or not as fun as they thought...

There's a big difference between high school and college basketball, not only in time commitment but also in sheer talent.  Everybody on a college roster is going to be capable... and you've got to be really, REALLY good to be the star on a college team, whereas in high school, you might get the ball every time down the floor because the other guys out there can't run and dribble at the same time.

And though everyone who starts with a college program likely is good enough, perhaps their particular skills wouldn't be utilized as much depending on the system or guys ahead of them, or whatever.  Sometimes guys burn out.  Sometime they just don't feel like it anymore... but the fact of the matter is that some people aren't going to last.  So if you only recruit 3 guys, no matter how great of player or person they are and no matter how much PT they get, sometimes things just don't work out.  It isn't irresponsible to recruit an extra player or two... you can never have too many good players... and there are no guarantees in the recruiting process.  If coaches are making guarantees, then they've already said too much.  A playing spot should be earned, not guaranteed in the recruiting process.

[Gregory Sager]

The issue that I have with this line of thinking, though Mr. Y, is that at UWSP, students are in the dorms the first TWO years.  Now, that's not 4... though some do stay the whole time... but it still is more significant than a true commuter school or one where kids are only required 1 year...

Yeah, in terms of student support two years on campus is better than none, but it's not as good as four years on campus. Chuck's point, which is that resident vs. commuter is a much better indicator of potential student support for athletics (or any other extracurricular activity, for that matter) than is private vs. public, is right on the money.

As a general rule of thumb, commuter-based schools have a very hard time drawing student support for athletics. And at schools that have mixed populations (e.g., North Park, North Central, and Elmhurst), it's the resident students who are in the stands cheering on game nights. Meanwhile, the commuter students are either working an evening job somewhere, or they're out with their friends or they're sitting at home watching television. That's not an indictment of commuters. They tend to be more pragmatic about how they spend their time and money, and their priorities simply lie elsewhere.

I know that I'm painting with a pretty broad brush here, but for the vast majority of commuter students a college education is nothing more than a means to an end. For resident students, it's four of the most intensely socialized and, well, tribal, years of their lives.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg, quite true.  I was actually thinking that sheer size of the school is at least as important.  At a small school, odds are you personally know most, perhaps even all, of the players; that seems much less likely at a considerably larger school.  When I was at IWU enrollment was about 1,600.  I had one or more classes with every bball player of my year, and several of those a year ahead of or behind me.  Since I knew them to be good guys (well, most of them ), wanting to support them was a natural consequence.

[chmarx]

Well, I went to a small school and lived on campus all four years.  I went to many sporting events.

When I was in graduate school at Western Michigan, I lived an hour's drive away for most of the two years, but I still went to most basketball and football games. 

Maybe at commuter schools, only the sports nuts can be relied upon to fill the stands.

[badgerwarhawk]

Eau Claire led early but back to back layups by Kori Vernon and Billy Kolinski put the WARHAWKS on top 6-4 and they never trailed after that.  WHITEWATER eventually builds the first half lead to as many as 16 points but Eau Claire rallied over the last 8 minutes to cut it to 9 points, 38-29, by the time the half ended.  Eau Claire could get no closer than 8 points in the second half as the WARHAWKS pulled away down the stretch holding their biggest lead when the game ended 79-60.

Myles McKay led the WARHAWKS with 18 points.  Kori Vernon had a double-double 15 points and 12 rebounds.  Matt Goodwin also scored in double figures with 14 points and pulled down 8 rebounds as WHITEWATER won the battle of the boards 40-29. 

Eau Claire shot well from beyond the arch hitting 10 of 20 attempts however finished a cool 38.4% from the floor to the WARHAWKS 51.7%.    WHITEWATER made 15-18 free throws to 4-5 for Eau Claire.  Ryan Shea led EauClaire with 17 points including 3-6 three-pointers. 



Oshkosh beat Stout in double overtime.  I think it was 80-78.
Platteville beat River Falls 72-51.
LaCrosse beat Superior but I'm not sure of the score.

[OshDude]

Well, I went to a small school and lived on campus all four years.  I went to many sporting events.

When I was in graduate school at Western Michigan, I lived an hour's drive away for most of the two years, but I still went to most basketball and football games. 

Maybe at commuter schools, only the sports nuts can be relied upon to fill the stands.

254 sports nuts found their way to Kolf yesterday. Plenty of leg room in the 5,600-capacity gym. There were 403 at the women's game, BTW. Apparently Stout travels better than we walk across the street. Two good games, too. Weird that the UWO men had to shoot 55% to beat Stout at home. DSA was amazing.

[titan2000]

Well, I went to a small school and lived on campus all four years.  I went to many sporting events.

When I was in graduate school at Western Michigan, I lived an hour's drive away for most of the two years, but I still went to most basketball and football games. 

Maybe at commuter schools, only the sports nuts can be relied upon to fill the stands.

254 sports nuts found their way to Kolf yesterday. Plenty of leg room in the 5,600-capacity gym. There were 403 at the women's game, BTW. Apparently Stout travels better than we walk across the street. Two good games, too. Weird that the UWO men had to shoot 55% to beat Stout at home. DSA was amazing.

Ted Van Dellen drew blood yesterday.  It said so in the Oshkosh paper.  His quotes are toned down too.

http://www.thenorthwestern.com/article/20090201/OSH0201/902010613/1148/OSH02

[Just Bill]

Wrong link.  Try this one.

A little weird that they mention that TVD had a bloodied fist, but they never tell why or how. Any journalsim majors in Oshkosh?

[stoutguy]

Can any of you Pointer guys tell me if the Dick and Jack Bennett floor renaming was yesterday?  Curious as to how it went.  Bob Semling had some pretty kind words regarding Jack's influence on his coaching style and success during our interview Sat. morning.  Reminded me of the old Dick VS Jack debates years ago.  For the record, my WIAC numbers show Dick at .684 (173-80) and Jack at .781. (200-56).  This conversation came up because we were talking about how tough it is for guys like Bob Semling and Pat Miller to get credit for being good because they work at a place where they have been good for a long time.  Regarding Dick VS Jack, I ran into a former Blugold the other night who was back for the alumni game (he told me that none of the other 80's guys showed up).  He told me he remembered preparing for a game against Green Bay and how the press was making a big deal about Bennett/Bennett (Jack being an EC assistant at the time and Dick the head guy at GB) and the players were kind of getting involved with that talk as well.  The EC head coach told his players, "Listen closely to this, gentlemen.  I am the head coach at EC and no one in this room had better damn well forget it."