MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[cubs]

I know its been...months since I've last posted. But why is Oshkosh still struggling? Seriously.

1.  Lack of production from the #2 and #4 positions
2.  Injury to Greg Schrimpf
3.  Short bench

Did I miss anything?

Add them up and you get around a middle of the pack finish, just as the pre-season poll predicted.

[cubs]

I know its been...months since I've last posted. But why is Oshkosh still struggling? Seriously.

Maybe the better question would be why is EVERYONE besides Point, Platteville, and Whitewater struggling?  Outside of those three teams, everyone else is below .500 in WIAC play.

[chmarx]

Wow!  interesting point, Cubs.

Wish I had an answer.

[Greek Tragedy]

Do the math.

Eau Claire:  5-2 record, take away losses to Point, Whitewater (2) and Platteville
Oshkosh 5-1, losses to Point (2), Whitewater and Platteville (2)
River Falls 3-2, losses to Point (2), Whitewater and Platteville (2)
La Crosse 3-4, losses to Point, Whitewater (2) and Platteville
Stout 1-5, losses to Point, Whitewater and Platteville (2)
Superior 2-5, losses to Point, Whitewater (2) and Platteville

Point beat Whitewater and Platteville, both in OT
Whitewater lost to Point in OT and Platteville by single digits (8 )
Platteville beat Whitewater by single digits (8 ) and lost to Point in OT.

Maybe those teams are just that much better and the rest of the league isn't struggling.

However, if you want reasons (or excuses)...
Both Stout and Superior seem to have a revolving door involving the starting lineup due to injuries.  La Crosse has lost it's senior leadership in Brandon Brown.  River Falls is just a very young team.  The other two teams, Oshkosh and Eau Claire have faired very well against teams not named Point, Platteville and Oshkosh.

[John Gleich]

The issue that I have with this line of thinking, though Mr. Y, is that at UWSP, students are in the dorms the first TWO years.  Now, that's not 4... though some do stay the whole time... but it still is more significant than a true commuter school or one where kids are only required 1 year...

Yeah, in terms of student support two years on campus is better than none, but it's not as good as four years on campus. Chuck's point, which is that resident vs. commuter is a much better indicator of potential student support for athletics (or any other extracurricular activity, for that matter) than is private vs. public, is right on the money.

As a general rule of thumb, commuter-based schools have a very hard time drawing student support for athletics. And at schools that have mixed populations (e.g., North Park, North Central, and Elmhurst), it's the resident students who are in the stands cheering on game nights. Meanwhile, the commuter students are either working an evening job somewhere, or they're out with their friends or they're sitting at home watching television. That's not an indictment of commuters. They tend to be more pragmatic about how they spend their time and money, and their priorities simply lie elsewhere.

I know that I'm painting with a pretty broad brush here, but for the vast majority of commuter students a college education is nothing more than a means to an end. For resident students, it's four of the most intensely socialized and, well, tribal, years of their lives.

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to this... but I don't think your argument flies here.  Point has roughly about 8000 students.  Just over 3000 live on campus.  There are roughly about 1500 new students each year, so that "fits" in terms of numbers.  Now, of course, some students will commute from the community... and some students will stay in the dorms for 4* years, so it all evens out.  After the two years in the dorms, kids move off campus... mostly to the residential zone within about 3 blocks of campus.  Yes, some move farther away... but lets say that half are in this area... that's another 1500 kids within 3 blocks.

But... most kids aren't finished in 4 years anymore, especially at a public school like UWSP.  So there's another 750 (half of the 1500 in year 5) within 3 blocks.  That's about 5250 of the 8000 students that live within about 3 blocks of campus.  Yes, they're not in a dorm setting... but they also aren't "commuters."  And, like I said, there are plenty of commuters who go to UWSP... I'd say that there probably were 2-3 in every class I was in.  But my classes were mainly about 30 students.  That is about 1%... less than 1000, and there's more then enough leeway in my 5250 number for that!

Greg, quite true.  I was actually thinking that sheer size of the school is at least as important.  At a small school, odds are you personally know most, perhaps even all, of the players; that seems much less likely at a considerably larger school.  When I was at IWU enrollment was about 1,600.  I had one or more classes with every bball player of my year, and several of those a year ahead of or behind me.  Since I knew them to be good guys (well, most of them ), wanting to support them was a natural consequence.

Another fallacy is that a smaller school will give individual students more of a chance to know an athlete.  While that seems like it is true (because there are fewer students in general... that means that of the 100 you know, there's more of a chance that he's an athlete), I don't think it is.  At a small school, you have more limited degree options and smaller class sizes.  That means that an athlete may have class with the same people...  At a public school like UWSP, there are larger classes and more class/degree options... so there are more students who will have "access" to the athletes.  And remember... all students (unless they are commuting) are on campus for 2 years.  That means that they ARE in the dorms with the athletes... and many people switch dorms between year one and year two.

I think that there's more organization, for whatever reason, at select schools.  Hope has the "Dew Crew" or whatever they're called... that's established, it's known... and kids keep filling it up.  I don't know about at Calvin or IWU in terms of student sections... but I know that Wheaton's tends to be the football players (or has been in the past).  

I think there's certainly a place for a student organization to be set up to do more than just cheer at basketball games... something like the Orange Crush at U of I.  They do charity work, they raise funds for scholarships... it's a big deal and it's why over the past decade or so, Illinois has had so much support at home... and one of the reasons why it has been tough to win there.

Now, the question is.... who would start it?  I'm an alum... but I'm a poor alum.  This kind of thing (probably) needs some capital to get it started... but that might come from (local) sponsorship.  Once it gets going, it will feed off of its own popularity and the herd mentality of the crowd will take over.  Don't get me wrong... there ARE Point students who come to the games... but they're scattered over the gym for the most part.  Give 'em a leader and a voice (and maybe matching T shirts?) and it could make coming to the Quandt that much tougher.  Just my ... two(?) cents.

[John Gleich]

HERE'S the official announcement from UWSP

[cubs]

Maybe those teams are just that much better and the rest of the league isn't struggling.

That was the point I was trying to make..... People have been getting on Oshkosh's case for almost a week now, but there are five other schools that are in the same boat as them, as far as not being able to knock off Point, Platteville, or Whitewater.

[titan2000]

HERE'S the official announcement from UWSP

Cool.

[wcbsas]

Maybe those teams are just that much better and the rest of the league isn't struggling.

That was the point I was trying to make..... People have been getting on Oshkosh's case for almost a week now, but there are five other schools that are in the same boat as them, as far as not being able to knock off Point, Platteville, or Whitewater.

But my point on UWO is simply this .... they shouldn't be in the same boat as UWRF, UWL, UWEC ... because:

1) Short term: They arguably have as good of three-some (DSA, MM and Marsh) as ANY team in the league.
2) Long term: Relatively speaking they have good enrollment, facilities and location as any team in the league.

If they finish 9-7 meaning they went 0-6 against UWW, UWSP and UWP but 9-1 against everyone else ... is that good?  IMO no, expectations should've been higher meaning 2-4 or 3-3 against the big 3.

Long term it has been 5 years since they've been to the NCAA.  They've finished 2nd place in the WIAC once and 3rd once.  In 18 years they've finished on avergae 4th in the conference with just one 1st place finish.

[titan2000]

Maybe those teams are just that much better and the rest of the league isn't struggling.

That was the point I was trying to make..... People have been getting on Oshkosh's case for almost a week now, but there are five other schools that are in the same boat as them, as far as not being able to knock off Point, Platteville, or Whitewater.

But my point on UWO is simply this .... they shouldn't be in the same boat as UWRF, UWL, UWEC ... because:

1) Short term: They arguably have as good of three-some (DSA, MM and Marsh) as ANY team in the league.
2) Long term: Relatively speaking they have good enrollment, facilities and location as any team in the league.

If they finish 9-7 meaning they went 0-6 against UWW, UWSP and UWP but 9-1 against everyone else ... is that good?  IMO no, expectations should've been higher meaning 2-4 or 3-3 against the big 3.

Long term it has been 5 years since they've been to the NCAA.  They've finished 2nd place in the WIAC once and 3rd once.  In 18 years they've finished on avergae 4th in the conference with just one 1st place finish.

And their attendance is one of the worst in NCAA D3 basketball.  How can they afford too keep this going like this when if they were good they could sell 1000 plus a night.  At 1000 more per game, 10 games at $7/ticket, that results in a $70,000 revenue increase. 

What  should they do with that cash? Why aren't they getting anyone in the seats?

[cubs]

Maybe those teams are just that much better and the rest of the league isn't struggling.

That was the point I was trying to make..... People have been getting on Oshkosh's case for almost a week now, but there are five other schools that are in the same boat as them, as far as not being able to knock off Point, Platteville, or Whitewater.

But my point on UWO is simply this .... they shouldn't be in the same boat as UWRF, UWL, UWEC ... because:

1) Short term: They arguably have as good of three-some (DSA, MM and Marsh) as ANY team in the league.
2) Long term: Relatively speaking they have good enrollment, facilities and location as any team in the league.

If they finish 9-7 meaning they went 0-6 against UWW, UWSP and UWP but 9-1 against everyone else ... is that good?  IMO no, expectations should've been higher meaning 2-4 or 3-3 against the big 3.

Long term it has been 5 years since they've been to the NCAA.  They've finished 2nd place in the WIAC once and 3rd once.  In 18 years they've finished on avergae 4th in the conference with just one 1st place finish.

As for point #1, I already gave my opinion in that back on page 531.

Point #2, in those 18 years they have qualified for the NCAA Tournament five times.  For the sake of comparison, Platteville has made eight appearances, while Point and Whitewater have each made seven.  Pretty comparable numbers if you ask me....

Anyway, based on your line of thinking, why isn't the UWO football team competitive?  They have had THREE winning seasons in the past 20 years, and only TWICE finished with a winnig conference record.  They have the same "good enrollment, facilities and location as any team in the league."

[John Gleich]

But my point on UWO is simply this .... they shouldn't be in the same boat as UWRF, UWL, UWEC ... because:

1) Short term: They arguably have as good of three-some (DSA, MM and Marsh) as ANY team in the league.
2) Long term: Relatively speaking they have good enrollment, facilities and location as any team in the league.

But again...

1) Basketball is a game of 5 players, not 3.  And the statement "as good as any" doesn't mean better than any.  Look at the conference stats.  Yes, Oshkosh has three guys near the top.  But La Crosse has two guys ahead of them.  Whitewater has 3 near Oshkosh's... and they have a 4th averaging 10 pts.  Point has FIVE guys averaging 10 or better.  Platteville, too, has 4 guys in the top 30 scorers, all scoring more than 12 pts per game.  It takes more than 3 to win this conference.

2) Enrollment doesn't matter.  WIAC basketball teams are recruited, not drawn from the general student population.  And if a team IS drawn off that general student population, then it won't be a competitive one.  The only exception I can think of would be La Crosse with Joe Werner... but he was recruited... just not for basketball!

If they finish 9-7 meaning they went 0-6 against UWW, UWSP and UWP but 9-1 against everyone else ... is that good?  IMO no, expectations should've been higher meaning 2-4 or 3-3 against the big 3.

Long term it has been 5 years since they've been to the NCAA.  They've finished 2nd place in the WIAC once and 3rd once.  In 18 years they've finished on avergae 4th in the conference with just one 1st place finish.

Somebody has to finish 1st, the same as 9th and everywhere in between.  Short of each team splitting with everyone else and ending up 8-8, there's going to be teams that win more games and teams that lose more.  And despite the "Big Three" even TVD acknowledges that they need more, better players.

Since 1996 (12 years, this year not yet included), they've had 5 NCAA appearances, including 5 in 8 years between '96-03.  That's the most in the conference during that 8 year stretch and second to UWSP's 7 during the last 12 seasons.  There are far worse things than this... River Falls and Superior haven't had a single NCAA appearance... and RF got a conference title in '04. 

[mab]

For sake of argument, here are my thoughts on the league's coaches.  In my mind there are two factors in judging D3 coaches: equal parts recruiting and coaching.  Based on their results to this point in their WIAC careers and predicting how they will do in the future, and using Bo Ryan as a benchmark of a perfect 20 + 20 = 40, here are the official mab ratings.

Name                       Recruiting     Coaching      Total

Semling                   18                  17                 35
Miller                        18                  15                 33
Van Dellen               17                  15                 32
Combs                      15                 15                 30
Gibbons                   13                  15                 28
Koelbl                      13                   14                 27
Buchanan                13                  12                  25
Berkhof                    10                  12                 22
Andrist                     11                  10                 21

[Mr. Downtown]

Thanks to all of those who responded to my question. I feel as if I have been caught up on this season, and I haven't even attended a game!

I want to comment on the whole revenue brought in because of higher enrollment, better facilities, etc.

It's not just UWO, its the entire city of Oshkosh. Not going to lie, it has seen WAY better days. A university can only go as far as the community supports it, and right now UWO is like an island inside Oshkosh. Oh, and it seems each week someone is laying off workers.

Pick up a Northwestern. You are noticing more and more burglaries on the North side of town. More drug and prostitution stings are being conducted, and the city really doesn't have a clear cut goal on how to fix anything. Oshkosh is in a rut.

So when you are a university that is stuck in the middle of all of these problems, its hard to focus what is on hand. Right now, I'm sure some student-athletes are more worried about how they are going to pay tuition this semester, then when to expect the screen on defense.

Not saying that anyone has it worse, or better. However, I will say schools like Point, Platteville, and Whitewater have the complete package between the University and Community backing.

But...let me make one Oshkosh reference. Because of the problems listed above, Coach Brian Schaefer lost his team captain and what he repeatedly said was his "heart and soul" of the Women's Volleyball team. All they ended up doing was making it to the Elite 8 for the first time in 12 years. Proving that the team itself could overcome adversity, and be successful. 

To me, I honestly believe both TVD and Schumacher could be doing better jobs. Sometimes its up to the coach to find the potential in players that didn't think they had. It just seems to me that this program has all been about 2-3 star's and a bunch of role players.

What about an even team, in which anyone could be the star of the game? That should be the direction for the future for both the Men's and Women's squads. I know Schumacher is still trying to build, but TVD needs to adjust the way he does things, because the story line of how "Oshkosh has the talent but doesn't get the results" is getting old...quick. 

Sorry for the long ramble. That's all I wanted to get off my chest. Back to real WIAC talk.

[chmarx]

Well, this seems pretty real to me.

Thanks for raising the issue, Mr. Downtown.