MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Pioneer Hoops Fan]

Pioneers dominated last night.  Final score is a 14 pt margin (if my mental math serves me correctly), but Pioneers were up 29 early in second half.  Skemp didn't play last 15 minutes of game, and other starters were pulled at 10 min mark.  Combs did put Lohoff and Hanson back in for a small stretch with 5 min left when the lead was at 20, but I believe that was make the young guys see what they were doing wrong...learning tool.  Tony Mane did not start last night, and I don't know if that has been the trend lately, but still scored 20 on 17 shots.  He's got a quick trigger and isn't afraid of any shot on the floor.  I think he could use his team a little bit more though.

Big one on Wednesday as Pioneers have the bye this weekend.  I know I can't wait for round 2!

[badgerwarhawk]

Terry Gibbons used to play at Oshkosh when TVD was an assistant to Bob White.   Maybe UWO should trade coaches with EC?

Ya, that would be a real bright move on Oshkosh's part.

The two teams split this year.  Oshkosh winning in Oshkosh and Eau Claire winning in Eau Claire.  Gibbons first coached in the WIAC in 1996.  Since that time, including last night, he is 8-21 against Oshkosh.  

Since 1996 TVD's teams have made more appearances in the national tournament (5 vs 2) and career wise TVD's w/l percentage is 84 points better than Gibbons.

[cubs]

Oh, and that point is hard to argue with. Capelle, Gibson, Marsh, Miller, DSA, and Jordan Johnson were the types of players you could win a conference championship with. Yet, a big fat 0.

Since when did going 21-6 (12-4 WIAC) become a disappointing season just because there a WIAC title wasn't won?  Christ Point had just as deep a team, if not deeper that season with Krull, Hicklin, Rortvedt, Beamish, El Amin, Moses, and Jackson.

Maybe they will catch fire in the conference tourney and...well, never mind. They couldn't beat Superior on their home court last year.

Your right, TVD was the one that missed a pair of FT's with 0:19 left and a one point lead, and then comitted a foul on his second miss to let Superior make a pair of FT's and take the lead.

Not very impressive, especially for a program that is used to winning double digit WIAC games a season.

Doesn't that say something for TVD's coaching ability then?  To be able to consistently put up double digit win totals (10 of the last 13 years) in arguably one of the toughest basketball conferences in D3 must mean he is doing something right.



I swear TVD must have turned down a post-game interview request with you or something.  You have been noticably absent most of the season, and when you return, you pick up right where you left off last season.

[bucks]

Ahhh, so that is what is going on here.  We have a couple of people who have an ax to grind over some issues that they felt slighted over. 

Got it.  I won't respond to them anymore.  Thanks for the info.

[cubs]

Ahhh, so that is what is going on here.  We have a couple of people who have an ax to grind over some issues that they felt slighted over. 

Got it.  I won't respond to them anymore.  Thanks for the info.

I'm not sure that is actually it....  I was just taking a stab at it.

[cubs]

Terry Gibbons used to play at Oshkosh when TVD was an assistant to Bob White.   Maybe UWO should trade coaches with EC?

Ya, that would be a real bright move on Oshkosh's part.

The two teams split this year.  Oshkosh winning in Oshkosh and Eau Claire winning in Eau Claire.  Gibbons first coached in the WIAC in 1996.  Since that time, including last night, he is 8-21 against Oshkosh.  

Since 1996 TVD's teams have made more appearances in the national tournament (5 vs 2) and career wise TVD's w/l percentage is 84 points better than Gibbons.

Glad someone is trying to look at things logically around here.....

[stoutguy]

Not that those attendence numbers are accurate, but in Oshkosh's Elite 8 year (2001-2002), they averaged 676 for conference games.

It steadily went up as the year went on.  Nearly 1200 for the Point game, but we know how well they travel.  Close to 1600 against Whitewater for what looks like the WIAC championship game and then 2177 against Ripon, well, they aren't far away. 

Is there that many more things to do in Oshkosh than go see even really good basketball (at that time)...??

Well, the Golden Corral has really stepped it up at their buffet; the Oshkosh populace does have to eat.

That is one of the funniest things I have read on this forum in a LONG time. I wish I could give you +302 karma for that.

Talk to Pat.  He is the czar of the karma.   

I know T -2K is just being a smart-ass as always, but for those of you who don't know any better, any poster with 200 posts or more than affect your karma once per 24 hours. There are many people who fit those criteria, as you can see.

I'm just thrilled to note that I can say "ass" in my posts.  The older I get, the more times that word seems to be the best description.

[titan2000]

Well I clearly have stoked the fire here but others have more passion on the UW-O issue so I will leave it up to Downtown and Cubs to fight this out.  Good luck to the WIAC teams and see you in the tournament I hope at least two of you.

If I keep it up the Czar will toss my ass and I want to be here for the MWC run to the tourney.

[Stout survivor]

It is hard to be so far away from the WIAC and try to keep up with the teams but the coversation about Oshgosh has been interesting.  Oshgosh had "the big three" and that alone should make them a top team in the WIAC, to this point it has not.  There are many reasons for this only one of which is the coach.  While I have a lot of respect for TVD and his program, I wonder why they are not competing and drawing more fans.  When I played I would have loved to played in a sold out game there but the best was half full.  I know that it is a big place but there is a population base that would fill it.  If the WIAC had an opening in marketing to get the fans out I would want to fill it. 

As for Stout, they have been playing harder and competing stronger then they have all year in the past 2 weeks.  Taking platt to the wire, Oshy to double OT and giving point, what sounds like, their best effort.  It is easy, and would not be the first time, that a team in last packed it is in the last month and got rolled over.  They have not.  Now I am a Stout homer (from a thousand miles away) I have always thought that it is one thing to lose and another to get a beat down without effort. 

I still would like to see a team win the league with a 12-4 record and not 15-1 or 16-0.  My question to you, who can make the games and have seen many of the teams, is there that big of difference in talent or coaching between the top and the bottom?  And how can schools change it?  I know the level of funding  is different between schools but that can't be the only reason.

[Greek Tragedy]

I disagree.  Having the Big 3 alone should not make them a top team.  And it shows.  Back when they had Cappelle, Gibson and Jahnke, they were the Big 3 and they didn't get it done, for the most part. 

You obviously need more than that to succeed here.  If you keep those guys to 20 apiece, that's only 60 points and usually that's not enough to win.  The other role players rarely score in double-figures, so they just don't help out enough.

Look at Oshkosh, they have DSA, Matt Miller and Marsh.  After that, Cory Wittwer is averaging 7 pts a game.  How is he contributing otherwise though?  His Ast/TO ratio is basically even.  He's averaging less than 2 rebounds a game and he's shooting 38%.  If he isn't helping out scoring, he's gotta help in other areas, among everyon else helping out.

Half full?  That's 2500 fans.  I don't think I've ever seen more than 2000 there.

More later...

[mab]

Unfortunately for UWO, high school basketball has been king in the city of Oshkosh for a long time.  Last year I was at the North vs. West game played at Kolf and it was nearly a capacity crowd.  The atmosphere was unbelievable.  There are also huge crowds every year at Kolf for the high school sectional they have there.  As a long time UWO fan, it makes me jealous wishing the titan's games could be like that.  It will take something like contending for a national championship before the locals and students turn out in those kind of numbers though.  The precedent is there.  I was at the D3 final four at Kolf when the Oshkosh women won their national championship, and they had nearly 5,000 both nights.

[wcbsas]

I disagree.  Having the Big 3 alone should not make them a top team.  And it shows.  Back when they had Cappelle, Gibson and Jahnke, they were the Big 3 and they didn't get it done, for the most part. 

You obviously need more than that to succeed here.  If you keep those guys to 20 apiece, that's only 60 points and usually that's not enough to win.  The other role players rarely score in double-figures, so they just don't help out enough.

Look at Oshkosh, they have DSA, Matt Miller and Marsh.  After that, Cory Wittwer is averaging 7 pts a game.  How is he contributing otherwise though?  His Ast/TO ratio is basically even.  He's averaging less than 2 rebounds a game and he's shooting 38%.  If he isn't helping out scoring, he's gotta help in other areas, among everyon else helping out.

Half full?  That's 2500 fans.  I don't think I've ever seen more than 2000 there.

More later...

You and I have done back and forth on this several times and will never convince each other to change their opinion but ... Let's look at UWP as an example ....

Skemp, Shaw and Hanson average a combined 48.8ppg, 13.3rpg in 87.5mpg
Marsh, DSA and Miller average a combned 50.8ppg, 17.4rpg in 108.4mpg

UWP's next 3:
Lohoff, Allen and Wall average 19.7ppg, 9.8rpg in 72.0mpg

While UWO's next 3:
Wittwer, Miller and Fannigan average 14.3, 9.3rpg in 67.1mpg

Statistically the differences are pretty small.  So IMO your argument that there's 5 players versus 3 doesn't hold water.  There is no question that UWO's bench is much shorter than UWP or UWSP or UWW but the difference between these two teams is not that the next 3 don't hold up well statistically.

We all focus on the offense statistics but the issue may be that UWO doesn't play defense.  Defensive PPG are:
UWO - 72.2, UWSP - 65.1, UWW - 69.4 and UWP - 60.8

Again that IMO starts with coaching.

[cubs]

I disagree.  Having the Big 3 alone should not make them a top team.  And it shows.  Back when they had Cappelle, Gibson and Jahnke, they were the Big 3 and they didn't get it done, for the most part. 

You obviously need more than that to succeed here.  If you keep those guys to 20 apiece, that's only 60 points and usually that's not enough to win.  The other role players rarely score in double-figures, so they just don't help out enough.

Look at Oshkosh, they have DSA, Matt Miller and Marsh.  After that, Cory Wittwer is averaging 7 pts a game.  How is he contributing otherwise though?  His Ast/TO ratio is basically even.  He's averaging less than 2 rebounds a game and he's shooting 38%.  If he isn't helping out scoring, he's gotta help in other areas, among everyon else helping out.

Half full?  That's 2500 fans.  I don't think I've ever seen more than 2000 there.

More later...

You and I have done back and forth on this several times and will never convince each other to change their opinion but ... Let's look at UWP as an example ....

Skemp, Shaw and Hanson average a combined 48.8ppg, 13.3rpg in 87.5mpg
Marsh, DSA and Miller average a combned 50.8ppg, 17.4rpg in 108.4mpg

UWP's next 3:
Lohoff, Allen and Wall average 19.7ppg, 9.8rpg in 72.0mpg

While UWO's next 3:
Wittwer, Miller and Fannigan average 14.3, 9.3rpg in 67.1mpg

Statistically the differences are pretty small.  So IMO your argument that there's 5 players versus 3 doesn't hold water.  There is no question that UWO's bench is much shorter than UWP or UWSP or UWW but the difference between these two teams is not that the next 3 don't hold up well statistically.

We all focus on the offense statistics but the issue may be that UWO doesn't play defense.  Defensive PPG are:
UWO - 72.2, UWSP - 65.1, UWW - 69.4 and UWP - 60.8

Again that IMO starts with coaching.

Not sure if you just picked UWP for the heck of it, or because it was the best case for your argument, but I went ahead and did the numbers for Point and WW as well.  The totals come out as:

Point's Top Six-71.5 PPG, 24.9 RPG, 161.8 MPG

WW's Top Six-69.1 PPG, 28.9 RPG, 150.7 MPG

What am I getting at?  The top three teams in the WIAC are each getting anywhere from 3-6 PPG, more from their "Top 6" compared to UWO.  Not that big a difference right?  Well when you look at the minutes and notice that each of the three are getting better production in significantly LESS minutes (anywhere from 14-25 minutes) that says something.  They are getting even more contributions from other players in those extra minutes to make the difference significant.

As far as the bolded part, if defense starts with coaching, maybe you should start giving TVD some credit, since these are UWO's defensive ranks over the past seven years in the WIAC.... 

2008-4th
2007-2nd
2006-1st
2005-3rd
2004-2nd
2003-2nd
2002-1st

[Stout survivor]

Well maybe the question is leadership on the team.  UWP, Point and UWW are very good teams who get good players and get them to buy in to what they are doing.  I remember playing LAX with Werner, Ask and Ferenbach (sp) where a very good "big 3" and were very unselfish with one another and their support players.  When they needed a bucket one of those three (probally Joe) got it.  All three seemed to buy in. 

It takes a team and not just three guys but if you have # guys you can go to to get a bucket they sould be better.  Maybe it is too much "me" and not enough "we".

[Greek Tragedy]

IMO, when someone not named Marsh, MATT Miller or DSA has the ball, they seem almost afraid to shoot.

When you look at the production of the next three players.

Wittwer shoots 6 times a game, making just 2.2 shots a game (38%).  Luke Miller shoots just 3 times a game and Flanigan less than 3 times a game.  How are you getting production out of them?  I'm not criticizing those players at all, but I think this shows you need more than three players to be competitive in this league. 

I was talking about production before, besides point production.  Looking at Platteville again...

Lohoff averages only 8.6 points a game (4th on the team).  But, he also has 50 more assists than turnovers, leads the team in steals, and is 2nd in rebounding.