MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Pioneer Hoops Fan]

Not sure if you just picked UWP for the heck of it, or because it was the best case for your argument, but I went ahead and did the numbers for Point and WW as well.  The totals come out as:

Point's Top Six-71.5 PPG, 24.9 RPG, 161.8 MPG

WW's Top Six-69.1 PPG, 28.9 RPG, 150.7 MPG

What am I getting at?  The top three teams in the WIAC are each getting anywhere from 3-6 PPG, more from their "Top 6" compared to UWO.  Not that big a difference right?  Well when you look at the minutes and notice that each of the three are getting better production in significantly LESS minutes (anywhere from 14-25 minutes) that says something.  They are getting even more contributions from other players in those extra minutes to make the difference significant.

As far as the bolded part, if defense starts with coaching, maybe you should start giving TVD some credit, since these are UWO's defensive ranks over the past seven years in the WIAC.... 

2008-4th
2007-2nd
2006-1st
2005-3rd
2004-2nd
2003-2nd
2002-1st

Well put Cubs.  IMO, UWO players don't have the desire to be a good defensive team.  I happen to think they are a little lazy on that end of the floor.  Now, I've only seen them once, but they seem more willing to score than stopping UWP on dribble penetration and playing helpside defense.  Again, I've seen them once, but I thought Stout played harder on defense than UWO.  You can't coach desire and willingness to play defense.

I was talking about production before, besides point production.  Looking at Platteville again...

Lohoff averages only 8.6 points a game (4th on the team).  But, he also has 50 more assists than turnovers, leads the team in steals, and is 2nd in rebounding.

Lohoff is averaging 11.6 in conference, and that is because he's needed to at times.  An example I can think of is at River Falls, the other three aren't having their best games.  Lohoff steps up, hits shots and is the difference maker for UWP.  Against Stout at home, he didn't take a shot, but UWP won by 14.  Charlie does the little things that coaches love on the floor, but when needed he can do the big things as well.

[wcbsas]

I disagree.  Having the Big 3 alone should not make them a top team.  And it shows.  Back when they had Cappelle, Gibson and Jahnke, they were the Big 3 and they didn't get it done, for the most part. 

You obviously need more than that to succeed here.  If you keep those guys to 20 apiece, that's only 60 points and usually that's not enough to win.  The other role players rarely score in double-figures, so they just don't help out enough.

Look at Oshkosh, they have DSA, Matt Miller and Marsh.  After that, Cory Wittwer is averaging 7 pts a game.  How is he contributing otherwise though?  His Ast/TO ratio is basically even.  He's averaging less than 2 rebounds a game and he's shooting 38%.  If he isn't helping out scoring, he's gotta help in other areas, among everyon else helping out.

Half full?  That's 2500 fans.  I don't think I've ever seen more than 2000 there.

More later...

You and I have done back and forth on this several times and will never convince each other to change their opinion but ... Let's look at UWP as an example ....

Skemp, Shaw and Hanson average a combined 48.8ppg, 13.3rpg in 87.5mpg
Marsh, DSA and Miller average a combned 50.8ppg, 17.4rpg in 108.4mpg

UWP's next 3:
Lohoff, Allen and Wall average 19.7ppg, 9.8rpg in 72.0mpg

While UWO's next 3:
Wittwer, Miller and Fannigan average 14.3, 9.3rpg in 67.1mpg

Statistically the differences are pretty small.  So IMO your argument that there's 5 players versus 3 doesn't hold water.  There is no question that UWO's bench is much shorter than UWP or UWSP or UWW but the difference between these two teams is not that the next 3 don't hold up well statistically.

We all focus on the offense statistics but the issue may be that UWO doesn't play defense.  Defensive PPG are:
UWO - 72.2, UWSP - 65.1, UWW - 69.4 and UWP - 60.8

Again that IMO starts with coaching.

As far as the bolded part, if defense starts with coaching, maybe you should start giving TVD some credit, since these are UWO's defensive ranks over the past seven years in the WIAC.... 

2008-4th
2007-2nd
2006-1st
2005-3rd
2004-2nd
2003-2nd
2002-1st

True the defensive ranks are good ... but we're talking about this year's team.  The issue with UWO, in my opinion, is not that their big 3 is less than anyone else's.  Its is not even that the next 3 guys in line are that far off (on average either).

It is the fact that THIS year's team offensively is as talented as any team in the WIAC including players 4 through 7 ... the problem appears to be that players 1 through 7 do not play defense well enough as compared to their upper echelon peers! 

If it is not the coach's problem then who is it?

[wcbsas]

As far as the bolded part, if defense starts with coaching, maybe you should start giving TVD some credit, since these are UWO's defensive ranks over the past seven years in the WIAC.... 

2008-4th
2007-2nd
2006-1st
2005-3rd
2004-2nd
2003-2nd
2002-1st

Here are combined statistics - offense and defensive WIAC standings:
2008 - UWO was 6th (offense) and 4th (defense) ... champ UWW was 1st and 3rd
2007 - 4th and 2nd ... UWSP was 1st and 5th
2006 - 6th and 1st ... UWW was 1st and 5th
2005 - 6th and 3rd ... UWSP was 2nd and 1st
2004 - 8th and 2nd ... UWRF was 3rd and 4th

Its a team game.  The good ones do both (offense and defense) fairly well.  Seems to me that UWO can't keep both horses in the barn at the same time!

[mab]

The we/me issue in regard to UWO is interesting.  They do seem to always have conspicuously low assist numbers, even going back to their sweet sixteen and elite eight teams from a few years ago.  It seems to me that Van Dellen has a little different philosophy than some other coaches.  He seems to really encourage his players to shoot when they make a move to the basket.  I guess the idea is if the player is fully committed to shooting, he is increasing his chances of scoring, as opposed to being in two minds between pass and shoot.  Personally, I would rather see them look to pass more.  Stevens Point does such a good job passing.  When you can put five players on the floor, like they do, who are all a legitimate threat to shoot a perimeter jumper, drive and shoot, or drive and dish, that is especially difficult to defend.

In order to see if there are numbers to back that up, I calculated Oshkosh's assists/baskets ratio (including 2 and 3 point baskets).

2002 - 44% - sweet 16
2003 - 43% - elite 8
2004 - 46 %
2005 - 47%
2006 - 43%
2007 - 42%
2008 - 35%
2009 - 41%

Expecting to see a big difference, I did the same for Point.

2002 - 49%
2003 - 46%
2004 - 46% - national champions
2005 - 47% - national champions
2006 - 44%
2007 - 43%
2008 - 43%
2009 - 43%

Surprisingly, there isn't that big a difference.  The biggest outlier is last year for Oshkosh.  That probably had to do with having a point guard who might be the best shooter in school history and this year's team is doing a better job of spreading the ball around.  As the statistics show, there is obviously a lot more to basketball than statistics.  I still wish the titans would pass the ball more like the pointers do.

[Just Bill]

Wow. I'm starting to get a Titanic headache.

[Stout survivor]

For fun  I did the standings this year-overall, offense and defense then averaged them.

Standings              Offense              Defense      Average rank
1-Point                       2                         2                  1.667          
2-Platt                        3                         1                   2
3-UWW                      1                         3                  2.333                   
4-EC                           4                         9                  5.667
5-Oshgosh                 7                         8                  6.667    
6-River                       8                         5                  6.333                  
7-Suptown                 6                         7                  6.667   
8-Lax                         5                         6                  6.333
9-Stout                      9                         4                  7.333

There is a bigger gap from 3rd to 4th then I thought

[BBGUY]

There is a definite lack of college basketball culture at UW-Oshkosh. Even when they went fairly deep in the playoffs several years ago w/Tim Dworak, the support and following was not great. It would take a huge undertaking for a marketing plan to be developed to change the culture to create a following. I would have to believe that the low attendance feeds the lack of better players looking to enroll at UWO. They really need to have coaching change there also. At one time the d3 polls had Oshkosh as a pre-season # 1 pick. That was one of the most unrealistic selections I have ever seen.

[Greek Tragedy]

The way Point, Platteville and Whitewater have been winning, especially against other teams, that statistic doesn't surprise me at all...I mean, the gap between 3 and 4.

The best I could find is preseason #2 to start the 05-06 season, after a impressive 19-8 season the year before.

And then I remember them going to Lawrence and laying an egg.  I was there...and the only reason I didn't pick Lawrence in the survivor pool is because they played Oshkosh in the first game.  Of course, Lawrence ended up going undefeated in the regular season...losing to Ill. Wes. in the Elite 8.

[Greek Tragedy]

I'll answer the question before it's asked...

I won't make the big Stevens Point at Whitewater showdown next weekend.  I'm going to the Bennett court dedication tomorrow and then coming back up to Point in a fortnight to see the season-ending showdown with Platteville.

Considering the Whitewater game is on Valentine's Day of all Saturdays, that puts me out of the running of making it down there.  This is the first Valentine's Day since I've been married, so Carrie thinks there's "extra meaning" to that...I guess I'm still trying to understand this marriage thing! lol :-)   

Well, at least I'm not bowling or playing online Jeopardy! Or maybe for Valentine's Day I WILL be doing that...not sure.  What I am sure is that I won't be there    I guess I can't complain, I get two out of three weekends of basketball...

[stoutguy]

I'll answer the question before it's asked...

I won't make the big Stevens Point at Whitewater showdown next weekend.  I'm going to the Bennett court dedication tomorrow and then coming back up to Point in a fortnight to see the season-ending showdown with Platteville.

Considering the Whitewater game is on Valentine's Day of all Saturdays, that puts me out of the running of making it down there.  This is the first Valentine's Day since I've been married, so Carrie thinks there's "extra meaning" to that...I guess I'm still trying to understand this marriage thing! lol :-)   

Well, at least I'm not bowling or playing online Jeopardy! Or maybe for Valentine's Day I WILL be doing that...not sure.  What I am sure is that I won't be there    I guess I can't complain, I get two out of three weekends of basketball...

I was in Point Wed. for the women's game and took a look at the men's gym thinking I would see Jack or Dick's name or picture or something.  For the dedication, are they just revealing  plans for what they are doing with the floor or dropping a banner or what?  Quick answer, if I could,  so I sound smart when I talk to Jack this morning on our Western Wisconsin Sports Sat. show.

[Just Bill]

Generally if you dedicate a court you paint the honorees name on the court. I'm guessing that's what Point is going to do, it just wasn't done yet when you were there.

Some places have used a floor decal temporarily until they could get around to re-painting the floor in the offseason.

[frodotwo]

Generally if you dedicate a court you paint the honorees name on the court. I'm guessing that's what Point is going to do, it just wasn't done yet when you were there.

Some places have used a floor decal temporarily until they could get around to re-painting the floor in the offseason.

They'll have a temp decal put down at halftime I believe and then the permanent paint job in the off-season. It'll be a treat to see some of those former Pointer stars in town again. Alumni night had a spattering of stars but I'm anticipating dozens more for this one.

[janesvilleflash]

stoutguy is on the air, Benett is coming on now. WMEQ 880 AM

[Gregory Sager]

Well, at least I'm not bowling or playing online Jeopardy!

Not playing online Jeopardy! ... taking the online Jeopardy! test in order to be a possible contestant. The citizens of Nerdville demand that you get the story right!

[titan2000]

I'll answer the question before it's asked...

I won't make the big Stevens Point at Whitewater showdown next weekend.  I'm going to the Bennett court dedication tomorrow and then coming back up to Point in a fortnight to see the season-ending showdown with Platteville.

Considering the Whitewater game is on Valentine's Day of all Saturdays, that puts me out of the running of making it down there.  This is the first Valentine's Day since I've been married, so Carrie thinks there's "extra meaning" to that...I guess I'm still trying to understand this marriage thing! lol :-)   

Well, at least I'm not bowling or playing online Jeopardy! Or maybe for Valentine's Day I WILL be doing that...not sure.  What I am sure is that I won't be there    I guess I can't complain, I get two out of three weekends of basketball...

Old School:

Now is the time to establish tradition--WIAC basketball followed by a lobster dinner at Mitchells with 10 cent taps.  Do it.  It will be worth it.