MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[John Gleich]

The people here who say that Randall isn't a family man is totally wrong.  He would not do something like this without talking to his family before a move and getting their thoughts and opinions on it.

I also wish Randall, Johnson, and Harris the best.  Randall and Harris helped bring a National Title to Stevens Point.  Don't turn your backs on them now as they go on to hopefully better things. 

Stevens Point will be fine.  After they won their second title in 2005 everyone thought the cupboard was bare.  Two years later they won conference and were hosting a NCAA sectional.  Semling will make the best of what he has.  I hear he has a really good class coming in and SP always plugs in student-athletes and gets results. 

And Randall cannot just pick up the phone and call Harris or Johnson without the players getting a release from the University once he got to St. Leo's.  A release the head coach must agree to.  Semling showed his class here and allowed it to happen for the players to get that scholarship. 

As stated before, these two were most likely not staying at Stevens Point anyway.  Why not go somewhere they can be comfortable and hopefully be successful?

2) These guys have turned their back on Stevens Point, haven't they.  The Golden Rule applies here... and they've shown us how they want to be treated by how they treated the program and community that welcomed them in.

3) SP will be fine, but there has been damage that has been done to the cohesiveness of the program, I can guarantee you.  Randall has made a rift in the program.  It will take time to repair and could affect recruiting in the near-term which directly affects the program and actually the conference as a whole.  Whether you want to believe it or not, the ability for conference teams to win non-conference games directly affects conference teams' ability to get at-large bids.  The conference's continued dominance (across the board) has allowed multiple teams to get in in the past but this could end if the WIAC comes back down to the other conferences... and SP has led the non-con charge for at least the last decade.

4)  Ok, so maybe they were leaving anyway... but maybe they weren't, or maybe they wouldn't have if the seed hadn't been put in their minds by a certain coach who made it known he was interested in leaving.  And, as has been noted, in D-III, you can self-release... Semling didn't have to be told about it at all.

5)  As I said before, Harris is going to have to sit out a year.  It will be interesting to see if Randall tries to appeal because Harris followed a coach to a new school, but this is such a unique situation... I've only ever seen that really work or be tried when a coach got fired and then got a new job on the D-I level.  Other than that THIS SIMPLY DOESN'T HAPPEN!

There's an unwritten code amongst coaches that you don't build your new program by feeding off of other programs.  Some coaches break that and steal recruits... but to take multiple players from the same program?

6)  I hope the players know what they're getting in to.  St. Leo was a charter member of their conference in 1975... and they haven't won a conference title, ever (I couldn't find records before 1975, so I don't know about anything prior to that, but if the last 35 years has been indicative of the prior years, then it's simply that St. Leo isn't a basketball school, it's a baseball one, and that's about it.

I hope they realize that they won't have near the support in Florida that they had in Stevens Point.  Harris played in front of 1600 and 1400 fans on average at home the last two years.  St. Leo is a school of 1500 in a town of even smaller.  EVERY school in the WIAC outdraws them.  And nobody in the Florida conference draws close to what Point draws... or any of the other top-tier WIAC schools.  When there are big games in the WIAC, 2000+ people show up.  They'll be lucky to have 500 in the stands there.

Over 18,000 people saw Point play last year at the Quant and 27,000 the year before.  Over 30,000 spectators took in Point in all of their games last year and over 43,000 the year before.  You know how many watched St. Leo?  This season, it was 3600 at home and barely over 10k total.  Two years ago it was 5100/12k.  That means that there won't be any home court advantage but their opponents will have more support. 

And St. Leo hasn't been higher than 6th out of 9 the past several years... pulling up the rear the last two years.  They didn't even make the conference tournament last year.  I know that Randall is hoping to develop a new culture there (gosh, you'd have to...) but Rollins, Florida Southern, and Eckerd seem to have the top all wrapped up.  Maybe it'll be nice battling for .500 in the league, but when you're used to going 55-8 over two years with a national title and a conference title, I wouldn't think it would be all that great...

Oh, and St. Leo was 946 in college basketball last year (out of 2072) and 238 out of 285.  That was worse than everybody in the WIAC except for Eau Claire.  To put it in perspective, Point was 212 (#2 in D-III).  Rollins, the top team from that conference, was at 342 (#42 in D-II).

Anyway, I've said more than enough... at least for now.

[Gregory Sager]

You may make the case that St. Leo is not a solid program by D2 standards right now, but be careful about extrapolating that back too far. Back in the '80s and '90s, when it was more common to take snowbird trips that didn't necessarily involve playing warm-weather D3 opponents, a lot of CCIW schools went down to Florida to play the schools from that conference -- St. Leo, Tampa, and Florida Southern in particular. The Florida schools almost always won, and the consensus among CCIW coaches and players was that the competition level that those teams offered was very high.

[Out_Of_My_Kitchen]

PS,

You make some very good points. 

I don't like to comment negatively on people's families.  I have no idea about them or what happens in the house.  I don't really care to.  I see him in public and it looks like he really cares about them.  I will leave it at that. 

About the student-athletes turning their back on Stevens Point, I dont really buy that.  Harris is going to get a scholarship.  That is a very hard thing to turn down.  If getting their school paid for now if turning their backs on Stevens Point, I would have turned my back on my colleges in a heartbeat.  Education is not cheap and it is only going to get more expensive. 

I am still waiting to see where a player can self-release up a level. I have not seen it on any NCAA website.  This might be because I am not very good with the internet, or you have to be an AD or administration to sign in to get it.  I really have no idea, but one of those reasons might be it, most likely the first one 

Talking about what the players are getting into.  Players don't simply go to schools because of winning or attendance figures.  Jake Smith went to Superior.  I am willing to bet Stevens Point had a lot of interest in him.  He went to Superior for different reasons.  Everyone has their own reasons to go somewhere.  He had a great career there.  And Superior improved by leaps and bounds with him there.  Maybe these guys are going to St. Leo to change the culture down there. 

Regardless, I still wish everyone the best.  Semling is a great coach, and he will keep Point where it belongs. 

[wcbsas]

PS,
I am still waiting to see where a player can self-release up a level. I have not seen it on any NCAA website.  This might be because I am not very good with the internet, or you have to be an AD or administration to sign in to get it.  I really have no idea, but one of those reasons might be it, most likely the first one 

Frankly ANY student can leave ANY school and transfer to ANY OTHER school of his choice.

NO COACHING RELEASE is required.  Releases deal with letter of intents that prospective athletes sign before entering the school.

The NCAA requires that any athlete moving up a level MUST sit out two semesters.  Jerrell Harris will have to sit for two semesters.  Jerrell Harris does NOT need Semling's release to join St. Leo's.

As with anything ... there are exceptions and waivers to those general rules.  I.E. In some cases an athlete could transfer up and play immediately.  In order to be eligible for most of those exceptions and waivers Harris would need Semling's approval and release.

Don't confuse general NCAA rules to conference rules.  Every conference has a variety of transfer rules for athletes looking to move within the conference.  The NSIC (D2 Minnesota conference) has a two-year rule.  The Big Ten has a two year rule.   The WIAC has its own rules.

[Out_Of_My_Kitchen]

Thanks for the explanation.  Sounds clear.  If I could give karma boosts I would. 

[ShineTime]

Bring back Jack as an assistant coach.

[Pat Coleman]

Not every conference has an intra-conference transfer rule.

[wcbsas]

Not every conference has an intra-conference transfer rule.

Your right - I meant on top of NCAA transfer rules conferences can impose other stricter rules.

[John Gleich]

You may make the case that St. Leo is not a solid program by D2 standards right now, but be careful about extrapolating that back too far. Back in the '80s and '90s, when it was more common to take snowbird trips that didn't necessarily involve playing warm-weather D3 opponents, a lot of CCIW schools went down to Florida to play the schools from that conference -- St. Leo, Tampa, and Florida Southern in particular. The Florida schools almost always won, and the consensus among CCIW coaches and players was that the competition level that those teams offered was very high.

I don't pretend to know the full history of the program, but the very recent history isn't stellar.  The previous coach was there 10 years and had a record of 103-183 and didn't finish higher than 4th in the league.  That takes us back to the late 90's or early aughts... which is after the time you cited, but even then, St. Leo wasn't winning conference titles. 

I don't know much else about the previous history, but that story I linked to said that Madagan was the second longest tenured coach (10 seasons) and Randall becomes the 10th coach in the program's history. 

Whatever the case, even if they were better in the 80's and 90's, they haven't had a winning since '97-'98.  It does look like they sat down and analyzed the program versus conference foes and perhaps make changes to improve the program, but that's going to take time.  And Randall has some history with turning programs around (see Webster) but the SLIAC isn't known to be a basketball powerhouse conference.  Not to say that the SSC is either, but there have been some established programs who have been at or near the top in the past several years and it may take quite a bit to break in.  FWIW, two SSC teams made the NCAA tournament and four were ranked in the South region.  Rollins ended the year at #16 in D-II, so it doesn't look like a D-II SLIAC.

And I do understand your argument about not going too far back... usually teams that have been around for a really long time have some history of success (even if it was a long time ago).  But often times this was under a specific coach or under certain circumstances...  I just think about the current situations at Eau Claire and North Park.  They had lots of success for an extended period of time but have fallen off considerably since then and though they may come back to where they were previously, they may not.  I don't have any evidence that St. Leo was ever anything but an average to possibly above average program in a D-II sense even back in the 80's and 90's... even if they were, they still weren't winning conference titles.

[John Gleich]

I will grant you this, though... I found records of D-II rankings 1983 looks like it was a good year for St. Leo.  It was the only year in which they were ranked (three consecutive weeks), though they didn't win the conference.  Central Florida and Florida Southern, who were each ranked later in the season, did.


FWIW... St. Leo may have been around a while, and they may have had one good basketball season... but I really don't see what they have going for them.  They have a total of TWO conference championships in the Sunshine State Conference... one in Men's soccer, and the other in Women's volleyball.  I think that's a pretty compelling case for athletic medocrity... and yes, it's only since 1975... but it's since 1975!  OK, I'll stop now, but I wasn't terribly impressed initially... and my further investigation hasn't turned up anything really great.

I'll give them this... they've got a decent looking gym... It's just never close to full.


I came across something pretty interesting... I didn't know that Eau Claire was part of D-II for a few seasons (at least 70-71 through 72-73).  They were ranked for 39 straight weeks over those three seasons and 35 of those were in the top 5.  21 weeks consecutively they were in the top 5 and 9 consecutively at #2.  Looks like they were 26-2, 23-1, and 21-3 those seasons, though the WIAC page doesn't have post-season history for any programs apart from D-III NCAA tournament.


As another aside, the D-II website is hosted by Missouri University of Science and Technology... you'd think an engineering school could come up with a better website, or at least a more modern one.  There's a note at the bottom that says "Works best with IE 4.0 or later."  I think that came out in 1997....?!

[Gregory Sager]

I will grant you this, though... I found records of D-II rankings 1983 looks like it was a good year for St. Leo.  It was the only year in which they were ranked (three consecutive weeks), though they didn't win the conference.  Central Florida and Florida Southern, who were each ranked later in the season, did.


FWIW... St. Leo may have been around a while, and they may have had one good basketball season... but I really don't see what they have going for them.  They have a total of TWO conference championships in the Sunshine State Conference... one in Men's soccer, and the other in Women's volleyball.  I think that's a pretty compelling case for athletic medocrity... and yes, it's only since 1975... but it's since 1975!  OK, I'll stop now, but I wasn't terribly impressed initially... and my further investigation hasn't turned up anything really great.

That doesn't mean that St. Leo didn't have a solid basketball team in the '80s and '90s when it was playing CCIW schools on occasion. It simply means that there were better teams in that conference. I don't recall a CCIW team ever beating St. Leo.

I came across something pretty interesting... I didn't know that Eau Claire was part of D-II for a few seasons (at least 70-71 through 72-73).

It wasn't. It was a member of the NCAA College Division, the precursor to D2 and D3. The NCAA College Division split from one division into two prior to the 1973-74 school year (although D3 didn't start playing its own postseason basketball tournament until a year later), and the NCAA University Division was simultaneously renamed NCAA Division I.

The official NCAA record book subsumes the records of the NCAA College Division into those of D2. That's why the NCAA website appears to indicate that the first D2 national champion, way back in 1957, was Wheaton.

[badgerwarhawk]

WARHAWK recruits

Knutson headed to Warhawks

Creed Knutson finished his high school basketball career at Janesville Parker High, and his college career likely will start nearby.

The Parker senior has told UW-Whitewater men's coach Pat Miller that he plans to attend school there and play for the Warhawks.

Miller believes Knutson will become the first Parker player to play at Whitewater.

"I think his best basketball is in front of him," said Miller, who watched Knutson play several times this past season.

The 6-foot-5, 215-pound Knutson stood out in the second half of the season. He became the first Parker player to earn first-team All-Big Eight status since 2008 when NCAA Division I recruit Riley Grafft earned a first-team spot.

Several other top recruits will join Knutson.

Miller said 5-foot-11 point guard Quardell Young of Kenosha Bradford, 6-6 guard Travis Crayton of Burlington, and Arrowhead's combination of 6-3 wing Charlie Fischer, 6-6 forward Ryan May and 6-6 center Ricky Lovett all plan to attend Whitewater and play for Miller.

"We think it's a good class," Miller said of the recruits. "We recruited a lot of length, and they're great shooters. They're high-level players that know how to play and don't need to control the ball.

"It's a good mixture."


Copied from the Janesville Gazette

[John Gleich]

I will grant you this, though... I found records of D-II rankings 1983 looks like it was a good year for St. Leo.  It was the only year in which they were ranked (three consecutive weeks), though they didn't win the conference.  Central Florida and Florida Southern, who were each ranked later in the season, did.


FWIW... St. Leo may have been around a while, and they may have had one good basketball season... but I really don't see what they have going for them.  They have a total of TWO conference championships in the Sunshine State Conference... one in Men's soccer, and the other in Women's volleyball.  I think that's a pretty compelling case for athletic medocrity... and yes, it's only since 1975... but it's since 1975!  OK, I'll stop now, but I wasn't terribly impressed initially... and my further investigation hasn't turned up anything really great.

That doesn't mean that St. Leo didn't have a solid basketball team in the '80s and '90s when it was playing CCIW schools on occasion. It simply means that there were better teams in that conference. I don't recall a CCIW team ever beating St. Leo.

True, but they haven't had a winning season since I was in high school... and I'm starting to get old.  That's not very good quality.  And while the state of the other athletic programs doesn't directly affect the basketball program, when you only have 2 conference championships in your ENTIRE athletic program in the last 36 years... not good.  If you're in the hunt, things will eventually fall your way.  If you're not in the hunt, then they can't... and they haven't, thus they probably haven't been in the hunt.

I came across something pretty interesting... I didn't know that Eau Claire was part of D-II for a few seasons (at least 70-71 through 72-73).

It wasn't. It was a member of the NCAA College Division, the precursor to D2 and D3. The NCAA College Division split from one division into two prior to the 1973-74 school year (although D3 didn't start playing its own postseason basketball tournament until a year later), and the NCAA University Division was simultaneously renamed NCAA Division I.

The official NCAA record book subsumes the records of the NCAA College Division into those of D2. That's why the NCAA website appears to indicate that the first D2 national champion, way back in 1957, was Wheaton.

Yep, I remember running around in Centennial Gym (perpendicular, of course to the current court configuration) at the Crusade Camp being coached by none other than Mike Shauer back in the day and seeing the banner hanging from the rafters. 

I had forgotten the timing of the split in divisions, but I still think it's interesting that there's no history of UWEC in the College Division tournament in these years... well, thought it was interesting.  Eau Claire actually has their basketball records all the way back to 1916 on their website.  It takes a lot for Eau Claire to impress an SP grad like myself, but I applaud them for including that info on their site!  They've even got box scores back to the early 70's... but I digress...

EC competed in the NAIA tournament in those years in the early 70's.  It's interesting to me that they showed up in the NCAA rankings for those seasons if they didn't compete in the NCAA tournament.  Eau Claire and Whitewater were both actually 21-3 in '72-73 but even EC wasn't ranked that year... So for whatever reason, Eau Claire was a part of the NCAA for those years... but then wasn't.  Kinda strange in my opinion.

[John Gleich]

Per Mark Miller on Twitter, Marcus Ruh leaving Eau Claire for St. Leo.  The pillage continues... though certainly Randall couldn't have gone behind any coach's back at EC (seeing as they don't have one at the moment)...

[buf]

Per Mark Miller on Twitter, Marcus Ruh leaving Eau Claire for St. Leo.  The pillage continues... though certainly Randall couldn't have gone behind any coach's back at EC (seeing as they don't have one at the moment)...

I heard that Ruh was looking at other schools even before Gibbons announced his retirement.