MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[John Gleich]

Thanks FF. Point Special - I got a chance to look at some of the old box scores from the Anderson era which you referenced. A great walk down memory lane. In addition to the familiar names, I also took note of the attendance figures you referenced. Those were the days. 2800 at Mitchell Hall to boo the hated Blugolds, who always found a way to slip the noose. My brother often thanks me for letting him tag along when EC brought their national powerhouses to town. I swear that we got there an hour before the game, but still had to sit in the nosebleed seats. Why don't the games attract the crowds they once did ? As D3 fans, we all feel that these games are great entertainment. Why don't more people see it that way ? I'm told that young people have more to do than we did, but it still mystifies me that the games don't draw bigger crowds, especially in the bigger cities like Eau Claire and La Crosse.

It took more than 2,800 screaming meanies from the bleachers, like yourself, to rattle those wonderful UWEC teams... 

Yes, the students have more to do today, or at least it appears to be the case. And yet, on the same token, they oftentimes complain there aren't things to do for kids under 21, too... Can't figure that one out... Drinking age was 18 back when I was in school; perhaps hoops games were a nice lead-in to a night out barhopping, which 18 year olds aren't able to do?

Yep. These games are great entertainment....And the kids today get in for free... We had to wait in line for an hour to buy tix... But now, for the cost of two or three Bucks games, you can buy a season ticket and watch a dozen or so WIAC games during the season...Can't beat that...

I can't speak to what it was like then... but I don't think too many kids have school pride nowadays.  I think it's still there in high school... but not in college.


I think that if there were dedicated campaigns to involve the students, they'd start to show up more... I've said it in the past too a bit, so this may sound rehashed, but a student organization like the Orange Crush at the University of Illinois, which makes up the student section at Illini games but also does a lot more... they do charity work, volunteer in the community, have their own scholarships, etc.

If you give someone an identity, they'll buy in... and I don't think the average WIAC student feels like they have the same identity as the athletic teams.

[thrunt01]

Thanks FF. Point Special - I got a chance to look at some of the old box scores from the Anderson era which you referenced. A great walk down memory lane. In addition to the familiar names, I also took note of the attendance figures you referenced. Those were the days. 2800 at Mitchell Hall to boo the hated Blugolds, who always found a way to slip the noose. My brother often thanks me for letting him tag along when EC brought their national powerhouses to town. I swear that we got there an hour before the game, but still had to sit in the nosebleed seats. Why don't the games attract the crowds they once did ? As D3 fans, we all feel that these games are great entertainment. Why don't more people see it that way ? I'm told that young people have more to do than we did, but it still mystifies me that the games don't draw bigger crowds, especially in the bigger cities like Eau Claire and La Crosse.

It took more than 2,800 screaming meanies from the bleachers, like yourself, to rattle those wonderful UWEC teams... 

Yes, the students have more to do today, or at least it appears to be the case. And yet, on the same token, they oftentimes complain there aren't things to do for kids under 21, too... Can't figure that one out... Drinking age was 18 back when I was in school; perhaps hoops games were a nice lead-in to a night out barhopping, which 18 year olds aren't able to do?

Yep. These games are great entertainment....And the kids today get in for free... We had to wait in line for an hour to buy tix... But now, for the cost of two or three Bucks games, you can buy a season ticket and watch a dozen or so WIAC games during the season...Can't beat that...

I can't speak to what it was like then... but I don't think too many kids have school pride nowadays.  I think it's still there in high school... but not in college.


I think that if there were dedicated campaigns to involve the students, they'd start to show up more... I've said it in the past too a bit, so this may sound rehashed, but a student organization like the Orange Crush at the University of Illinois, which makes up the student section at Illini games but also does a lot more... they do charity work, volunteer in the community, have their own scholarships, etc.

If you give someone an identity, they'll buy in... and I don't think the average WIAC student feels like they have the same identity as the athletic teams.

I agree 100%  That is why I'm so happy about the Black and Yellows at Oshkosh. Finally some fan support and it is coming in the form of a student org much like the Orange Crush mentioned above. I really feel people don't realize the quality of play at this level. Another problem is it takes effort to get familiar with the teams. In high school you walk the halls and have class with many of the players and at big colleges you can get all the info you want or need from the TV and internet so at least you feel like you know the players.  That's hard to do at the D3 level, a student may never have class with an athlete and they can't just turn on ESPN to find out whats going on. It takes some extra effort but in my opinion its worth it.  Video games also detract, rather than a  student in the 70s 80s 90s or even early 2000s hitting up a game and then going to the bars on a saturday they'll just drink in their room and play video games all day. Pretty sad.

[chmarx]

First time I ever heard the legendary UCLA mentor referred to as Johnny -

He was referred to that way before he became legendary.

On attendance issues:  fire codes have little to do with it.  Most games in the league, in my experience, are played in front of crowds that are well below allowable attendance.

[John Gleich]

First time I ever heard the legendary UCLA mentor referred to as Johnny -

He was referred to that way before he became legendary.

On attendance issues:  fire codes have little to do with it.  Most games in the league, in my experience, are played in front of crowds that are well below allowable attendance.

I absolutely agree... but when, for instance, you have a gym like Quandt, recently renovated and very nice with the plastic bleachers instead of the wooden ones, they had fewer rows, more leg room, and wider aisles... so in games where there could or would be a sell out (like and NCAA game, for instance) there are 400 fewer seats... not to mention the fact that Standing Room Only is a thing of the past... those are fire exits those people were standing in, can't have that!


... And yet, like you said, these games are few and far between.  Even Point, which has dominated attendance for the last decade has had ebbs and flows of several hundred people per game... from as low as 1300 on average to as high as 1900... though when you pack the place with 4 NCAA tournament games, that significantly raises the season average.

[John Gleich]

Thanks FF. Point Special - I got a chance to look at some of the old box scores from the Anderson era which you referenced. A great walk down memory lane. In addition to the familiar names, I also took note of the attendance figures you referenced. Those were the days. 2800 at Mitchell Hall to boo the hated Blugolds, who always found a way to slip the noose. My brother often thanks me for letting him tag along when EC brought their national powerhouses to town. I swear that we got there an hour before the game, but still had to sit in the nosebleed seats. Why don't the games attract the crowds they once did ? As D3 fans, we all feel that these games are great entertainment. Why don't more people see it that way ? I'm told that young people have more to do than we did, but it still mystifies me that the games don't draw bigger crowds, especially in the bigger cities like Eau Claire and La Crosse.

It took more than 2,800 screaming meanies from the bleachers, like yourself, to rattle those wonderful UWEC teams... 

Yes, the students have more to do today, or at least it appears to be the case. And yet, on the same token, they oftentimes complain there aren't things to do for kids under 21, too... Can't figure that one out... Drinking age was 18 back when I was in school; perhaps hoops games were a nice lead-in to a night out barhopping, which 18 year olds aren't able to do?

Yep. These games are great entertainment....And the kids today get in for free... We had to wait in line for an hour to buy tix... But now, for the cost of two or three Bucks games, you can buy a season ticket and watch a dozen or so WIAC games during the season...Can't beat that...

I can't speak to what it was like then... but I don't think too many kids have school pride nowadays.  I think it's still there in high school... but not in college.


I think that if there were dedicated campaigns to involve the students, they'd start to show up more... I've said it in the past too a bit, so this may sound rehashed, but a student organization like the Orange Crush at the University of Illinois, which makes up the student section at Illini games but also does a lot more... they do charity work, volunteer in the community, have their own scholarships, etc.

If you give someone an identity, they'll buy in... and I don't think the average WIAC student feels like they have the same identity as the athletic teams.

I agree 100%  That is why I'm so happy about the Black and Yellows at Oshkosh. Finally some fan support and it is coming in the form of a student org much like the Orange Crush mentioned above. I really feel people don't realize the quality of play at this level. Another problem is it takes effort to get familiar with the teams. In high school you walk the halls and have class with many of the players and at big colleges you can get all the info you want or need from the TV and internet so at least you feel like you know the players.  That's hard to do at the D3 level, a student may never have class with an athlete and they can't just turn on ESPN to find out whats going on. It takes some extra effort but in my opinion its worth it.  Video games also detract, rather than a  student in the 70s 80s 90s or even early 2000s hitting up a game and then going to the bars on a saturday they'll just drink in their room and play video games all day. Pretty sad.

It's interesting... but some places still have that.  Now, granted, they're typically very good teams... but there are perennials at the top of the national attendance figures (Calvin, Hope, Wooster, Illinois Wesleyan - though they've been down the past few years).  Augustana has been up there the past few, as has been Wheaton.

And I'll always remember the most insane crowd ever... Gustavus Adolphus in 2004.  Pure insanity.

The thing about those schools is, by and large, the size... they're not too much bigger than the largest high schools around, and so there IS that sense of community.

I think it's interesting, because often the athletes do stick together... so the basketball players will support the football team and vice versa... but kids who played sports in high school sort of lose interest... and like you said, if they don't know the players, they're not likely to show up.


I think that certain WIAC schools who mandate 2 years in the dorms, like Point, could actually be an asset... if the dorms got organized and entire floors came to the games.  Nearly half of UWSP's 8000 kids live in the dorms...  Quandt should be packed to the roof in every game with students, let alone people from the community, and only Kolf is so huge that it would be hard to pack all the time (though with 10k kids, Oshkosh could do it!)

[frodotwo]

Thanks FF. Point Special - I got a chance to look at some of the old box scores from the Anderson era which you referenced. A great walk down memory lane. In addition to the familiar names, I also took note of the attendance figures you referenced. Those were the days. 2800 at Mitchell Hall to boo the hated Blugolds, who always found a way to slip the noose. My brother often thanks me for letting him tag along when EC brought their national powerhouses to town. I swear that we got there an hour before the game, but still had to sit in the nosebleed seats. Why don't the games attract the crowds they once did ? As D3 fans, we all feel that these games are great entertainment. Why don't more people see it that way ? I'm told that young people have more to do than we did, but it still mystifies me that the games don't draw bigger crowds, especially in the bigger cities like Eau Claire and La Crosse.

It took more than 2,800 screaming meanies from the bleachers, like yourself, to rattle those wonderful UWEC teams... 

Yes, the students have more to do today, or at least it appears to be the case. And yet, on the same token, they oftentimes complain there aren't things to do for kids under 21, too... Can't figure that one out... Drinking age was 18 back when I was in school; perhaps hoops games were a nice lead-in to a night out barhopping, which 18 year olds aren't able to do?

Yep. These games are great entertainment....And the kids today get in for free... We had to wait in line for an hour to buy tix... But now, for the cost of two or three Bucks games, you can buy a season ticket and watch a dozen or so WIAC games during the season...Can't beat that...

I can't speak to what it was like then... but I don't think too many kids have school pride nowadays.  I think it's still there in high school... but not in college.


I think that if there were dedicated campaigns to involve the students, they'd start to show up more... I've said it in the past too a bit, so this may sound rehashed, but a student organization like the Orange Crush at the University of Illinois, which makes up the student section at Illini games but also does a lot more... they do charity work, volunteer in the community, have their own scholarships, etc.

If you give someone an identity, they'll buy in... and I don't think the average WIAC student feels like they have the same identity as the athletic teams.

I agree 100%  That is why I'm so happy about the Black and Yellows at Oshkosh. Finally some fan support and it is coming in the form of a student org much like the Orange Crush mentioned above. I really feel people don't realize the quality of play at this level. Another problem is it takes effort to get familiar with the teams. In high school you walk the halls and have class with many of the players and at big colleges you can get all the info you want or need from the TV and internet so at least you feel like you know the players.  That's hard to do at the D3 level, a student may never have class with an athlete and they can't just turn on ESPN to find out whats going on. It takes some extra effort but in my opinion its worth it.  Video games also detract, rather than a  student in the 70s 80s 90s or even early 2000s hitting up a game and then going to the bars on a saturday they'll just drink in their room and play video games all day. Pretty sad.

It's interesting... but some places still have that.  Now, granted, they're typically very good teams... but there are perennials at the top of the national attendance figures (Calvin, Hope, Wooster, Illinois Wesleyan - though they've been down the past few years).  Augustana has been up there the past few, as has been Wheaton.

And I'll always remember the most insane crowd ever... Gustavus Adolphus in 2004.  Pure insanity.

The thing about those schools is, by and large, the size... they're not too much bigger than the largest high schools around, and so there IS that sense of community.

I think it's interesting, because often the athletes do stick together... so the basketball players will support the football team and vice versa... but kids who played sports in high school sort of lose interest... and like you said, if they don't know the players, they're not likely to show up.


I think that certain WIAC schools who mandate 2 years in the dorms, like Point, could actually be an asset... if the dorms got organized and entire floors came to the games.  Nearly half of UWSP's 8000 kids live in the dorms...  Quandt should be packed to the roof in every game with students, let alone people from the community, and only Kolf is so huge that it would be hard to pack all the time (though with 10k kids, Oshkosh could do it!)

I was impressed with the Augustana student fans of about 300 who were loud, boisterous and supportive & never left their feet versus the UWSP student fans when we hosted WW who numbered about 100 and rarely left their seat.

[thrunt01]

Great thought with the community aspect of private v. public universities, that never even crossed my mind but I know it to be true given the large difference of experience I have going to a larger public school while my sister attends a school with under 1,000 enrollment. Big difference there in both number and culture. BTW Oshkosh is up to 14k now.

Thanks FF. Point Special - I got a chance to look at some of the old box scores from the Anderson era which you referenced. A great walk down memory lane. In addition to the familiar names, I also took note of the attendance figures you referenced. Those were the days. 2800 at Mitchell Hall to boo the hated Blugolds, who always found a way to slip the noose. My brother often thanks me for letting him tag along when EC brought their national powerhouses to town. I swear that we got there an hour before the game, but still had to sit in the nosebleed seats. Why don't the games attract the crowds they once did ? As D3 fans, we all feel that these games are great entertainment. Why don't more people see it that way ? I'm told that young people have more to do than we did, but it still mystifies me that the games don't draw bigger crowds, especially in the bigger cities like Eau Claire and La Crosse.

It took more than 2,800 screaming meanies from the bleachers, like yourself, to rattle those wonderful UWEC teams... 

Yes, the students have more to do today, or at least it appears to be the case. And yet, on the same token, they oftentimes complain there aren't things to do for kids under 21, too... Can't figure that one out... Drinking age was 18 back when I was in school; perhaps hoops games were a nice lead-in to a night out barhopping, which 18 year olds aren't able to do?

Yep. These games are great entertainment....And the kids today get in for free... We had to wait in line for an hour to buy tix... But now, for the cost of two or three Bucks games, you can buy a season ticket and watch a dozen or so WIAC games during the season...Can't beat that...

I can't speak to what it was like then... but I don't think too many kids have school pride nowadays.  I think it's still there in high school... but not in college.


I think that if there were dedicated campaigns to involve the students, they'd start to show up more... I've said it in the past too a bit, so this may sound rehashed, but a student organization like the Orange Crush at the University of Illinois, which makes up the student section at Illini games but also does a lot more... they do charity work, volunteer in the community, have their own scholarships, etc.

If you give someone an identity, they'll buy in... and I don't think the average WIAC student feels like they have the same identity as the athletic teams.

I agree 100%  That is why I'm so happy about the Black and Yellows at Oshkosh. Finally some fan support and it is coming in the form of a student org much like the Orange Crush mentioned above. I really feel people don't realize the quality of play at this level. Another problem is it takes effort to get familiar with the teams. In high school you walk the halls and have class with many of the players and at big colleges you can get all the info you want or need from the TV and internet so at least you feel like you know the players.  That's hard to do at the D3 level, a student may never have class with an athlete and they can't just turn on ESPN to find out whats going on. It takes some extra effort but in my opinion its worth it.  Video games also detract, rather than a  student in the 70s 80s 90s or even early 2000s hitting up a game and then going to the bars on a saturday they'll just drink in their room and play video games all day. Pretty sad.

It's interesting... but some places still have that.  Now, granted, they're typically very good teams... but there are perennials at the top of the national attendance figures (Calvin, Hope, Wooster, Illinois Wesleyan - though they've been down the past few years).  Augustana has been up there the past few, as has been Wheaton.

And I'll always remember the most insane crowd ever... Gustavus Adolphus in 2004.  Pure insanity.

The thing about those schools is, by and large, the size... they're not too much bigger than the largest high schools around, and so there IS that sense of community.

I think it's interesting, because often the athletes do stick together... so the basketball players will support the football team and vice versa... but kids who played sports in high school sort of lose interest... and like you said, if they don't know the players, they're not likely to show up.


I think that certain WIAC schools who mandate 2 years in the dorms, like Point, could actually be an asset... if the dorms got organized and entire floors came to the games.  Nearly half of UWSP's 8000 kids live in the dorms...  Quandt should be packed to the roof in every game with students, let alone people from the community, and only Kolf is so huge that it would be hard to pack all the time (though with 10k kids, Oshkosh could do it!)

I was impressed with the Augustana student fans of about 300 who were loud, boisterous and supportive & never left their feet versus the UWSP student fans when we hosted WW who numbered about 100 and rarely left their seat.

[bulk19]

Another thought regarding student fan base...

The founding of ESPN has perhaps generated a bigger increase in interest college sports over the years, but, alas, I think the focus primarily on D1 sports has steered college kids to that level at the expense of supporting their own D3 teams? 

Not sure if I'm made my point as well as I could, but an example would be the Wisconsin Badgers, especially in football and basketball... You ask just about any WIAC college kid about Bucky's teams, and, if they don't root for them - and I think most who follow sports in this state consider themselves Badger fans - they will probably at least have an idea of, or interest in, what those teams are doing. They have developed, as PointSpecial aptly calls it, a pride/spirit/identity in the Badgers, but maybe not one toward their particular D3 team...

Not sure about all this... Just throwing out some brainstorming/random thoughts out...

[badgerwarhawk]

Possibly one thing that also comes into play when you compare the past with the present is the mobility of today's student.  They all have cars which makes it much easier to do other things and travel to other cities.  When I was a student freshmen weren't allowed to have cars and a minority of upper class students had a car.  I had to borrow a friend's car to go out with my girlfriend.  When I look at the parking lots and number of cars on our campus now compared to those of my day it's ridiculous. 

[badgerwarhawk]

Three former Warhawk players are currently on the roster for the Milwaukee Blast of the ABA. Gio Riley, Kori Vernon and Dupree Fletcher are all seeing significant playing time this season. The Blast are currently 5-1 on the year and ranked 16th in the country. Many games are played at Wisconsin Lutheran College in Waukesha.
Dupree Fletcher is leading the team in scoring and assists averaging 32.2 points and 3.5 assists per game. Kori Vernon is first on the team in rebounds and 3rd in scoring averaging 4.8 boards and 20.5 points per game. Gio Riley is 2nd on the team in assists and 7th in scoring averaging 3.0 assists and 15.7 points in the first 6 games.
Please check out the site blastbasketball.com for further information and game times

[Greek Tragedy]

When I was a student freshmen weren't allowed to have cars and a minority of upper class students had a car. 

Were cars already invented when you were a freshman in college? 

[John Gleich]

Another thought regarding student fan base...

The founding of ESPN has perhaps generated a bigger increase in interest college sports over the years, but, alas, I think the focus primarily on D1 sports has steered college kids to that level at the expense of supporting their own D3 teams? 

Not sure if I'm made my point as well as I could, but an example would be the Wisconsin Badgers, especially in football and basketball... You ask just about any WIAC college kid about Bucky's teams, and, if they don't root for them - and I think most who follow sports in this state consider themselves Badger fans - they will probably at least have an idea of, or interest in, what those teams are doing. They have developed, as PointSpecial aptly calls it, a pride/spirit/identity in the Badgers, but maybe not one toward their particular D3 team...

Not sure about all this... Just throwing out some brainstorming/random thoughts out...

It's a great point.  I don't know about the support for the flagship back 30 years ago (versus the local school) but whether it's ESPN, the Big 10, or the schools themselves, the flagship Big 10 schools have sort of become the state identity in terms of college athletics.  When you look at the size of stadiums and the entire production that goes into things like football games, it's mind blowing, and the same goes for basketball too.

We live in such a connected world these days.  Even prior to the vast expansion of the internet, cable TV made everything that much more accessible in the home (or dorm).  Now, with the internet, it's even more so.

And I think that's why it's important to sort of grab students early, before they get into their college routines that don't include athletics.  Or, in some way, publicize the heck out of it... have tailgates or cookouts or giveaways or contests... it will likely require outside sponsors, but those sponsors have to know that their products will be seen if the students show up!

Possibly one thing that also comes into play when you compare the past with the present is the mobility of today's student.  They all have cars which makes it much easier to do other things and travel to other cities.  When I was a student freshmen weren't allowed to have cars and a minority of upper class students had a car.  I had to borrow a friend's car to go out with my girlfriend.  When I look at the parking lots and number of cars on our campus now compared to those of my day it's ridiculous. 

This is true... and lots of kids do go home on the weekends now or work more substantial jobs too.

[Just Bill]

When I was a student freshmen weren't allowed to have cars and a minority of upper class students had a car. 

Were cars already invented when you were a freshman in college? 

They were. They just called them "horseless carriages".

[Gregory Sager]

Another problem is it takes effort to get familiar with the teams. In high school you walk the halls and have class with many of the players and at big colleges you can get all the info you want or need from the TV and internet so at least you feel like you know the players.  That's hard to do at the D3 level, a student may never have class with an athlete

No, the exact opposite is true at most D3 institutions. Sure, the average student might have little or no classroom or social interaction with a basketball player at a WIAC school, since they're almost all mid-sized institutions -- all of them except for UW-Superior have enrollments between 6,500 and 15,000 students. But relatively few D3 schools have student bodies that big. The vast majority of them are more like UW-Superior's 2,700 in size; a student population somewhere between 500 and 3,000 is pretty typical for D3. In other words, most D3 schools are the same size as your average garden-variety suburban high school in terms of student population ... and it's almost impossible to keep from interacting with a basketball player at a school that small, particularly if it's an all-resident or mostly-resident student body.

[BDB]

Well said Greg. Plus, at D3 I don't believe there are many cases of "football dorms" as a factor. At least with the schools I am familiar with, the athletes are part of the general dorm prison population.