MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[stoutguy]

That half court shot was a killer from about 52 feet and loosely defended. Refereeing was horrible tonight as Point was mugged continually. One more free throw would have won it in regulation. Then a three by a guy shooting 11% on the year. Go Figure. I'm not one to complain much about reffing because they have a tough job, but Point was continually being hand checked and pushed with no calls. Many of those offensive rebounds were over the back of Point players. But give Stout credit for taking it to Point.

[/b]

Well, actually, it doesn't sound like you are giving Stout too much credit.  Sounds more like you are saying Stout was really lucky and Point got screwed by the officiating. 

[John Gleich]

PS, it all depends upon how many rows of bleachers there are. For bleachers that extend from one regulation length to the other (the regulation length is six feet of space beyond the endline, so we're talking 106 feet all told), you have space per bleacher row for approximately sixty people. Five rows means 300 people can sit there. Ten rows means 600 people can sit there.

If the bleachers at Karges go up sixteen rows, then you've got 960 people per side, or 1,920 total, which somebody probably rounded up to 2,000 when they gave Pat Coleman the gym's capacity to put in the UWRF profile on d3hoops.com.

I can't tell from the pics on the UWRF site how many rows there are.

Yep...  Anecdotally, I was going to say that Karges is smaller than Lake Forest College's Sports and Rec Center.  LFC's bleachers certainly go higher... but they don't go baseline to baseline... as you can see from the picture below... the only one I could find on the internet of Lake Forest's gym.  Do they have rules about pictures during games... or are the games just THAT sparsely attended?!



Oo, I found another one and this has some people in it!




It's interesting to note that LFC (at least for this volleyball game) didn't pull their bleachers out all the way either... *(I've never been to LFC for a game... I only participated/worked basketball camps there when I was in high school and college).  I wonder if that factors into their capacity numbers or not.


All of that being said... it will be very interesting to see the field, and interesting what happens over the next week and a half.

I'd say that the WIAC Pool A is a shoe-in to host... unless there's an issue with the women's team hosting... not sure who has first-round preference this year, women or men...

That could be very interesting in the case of Point... I'd say that the women have a better hosting resume at this point... but they hosted in round 1 last year, so it might be the men's "turn..."  But the question then is this... have the men had a good enough season compared to other potential men's hosts?


I haven't really kept up on the women this year... but I do know that Point, River Falls, and Whitewater women are all ranked as well, though UWW's women aren't regionally ranked.

This could factor in to hosting.

[CarefreeAZ]

Well, actually, it doesn't sound like you are giving Stout too much credit.  Sounds more like you are saying Stout was really lucky and Point got screwed by the officiating. 

An observation here:  Play in the WIAC seems to be somewhat ragged this season.  As a retired referee, I can attest to the fact that games punctuated by that sort of play can be difficult (at best) to officiate from the standpoint of flow and consistency.

I've only seen one game live this year (Platteville's loss at the Ohio holiday tournament) but I tuned in to a number of internet-televised events. I commented to my sons who agreed that overall WIAC play just doesn't seem to be up to the level of past years (both recent as well previous decades). Nevertheless, I'm rooting for the three conference leaders to impress at tournament time.

I'd like to give more support to my alma mater, Platteville, but their offense is beyond comprehension and the short rotation doesn't impress me.  Still, Go Pioneers for what it's worth but I guess my heart's with RF.

[WilsonHoops]

A few years back when Rich Melzer was playing for UWRF they would routinely have more than 1,000 people in the stands, one year they average 960 per home game.  I know one game against UWEC they 1800 people and against Platteville over 1500.

[John Gleich]

Well, actually, it doesn't sound like you are giving Stout too much credit.  Sounds more like you are saying Stout was really lucky and Point got screwed by the officiating.

An observation here:  Play in the WIAC seems to be somewhat ragged this season.  As a retired referee, I can attest to the fact that games punctuated by that sort of play can be difficult (at best) to officiate from the standpoint of flow and consistency.

I've only seen one game live this year (Platteville's loss at the Ohio holiday tournament) but I tuned in to a number of internet-televised events. I commented to my sons who agreed that overall WIAC play just doesn't seem to be up to the level of past years (both recent as well previous decades). Nevertheless, I'm rooting for the three conference leaders to impress at tournament time.

I'd like to give more support to my alma mater, Platteville, but their offense is beyond comprehension and the short rotation doesn't impress me.  Still, Go Pioneers for what it's worth but I guess my heart's with RF.

It seems like all of D-III may be down a little bit as opposed to about a decade ago and earlier.

There's a thread on the multi-region board that has the overall record of D-III versus other divisions... (D-I, D-II, NAIA-I, NAIA-II, and some other lesser-known divisions).  Every year in the past except for maybe one, D-III has beaten NAIA-II, though it has been relatively close.

This year, NAIA-II beat D-III in the head-to-head.

I don't have the stats on this... but it seems like the total number of wins vs. NAIA-I and D-II (which are more or less playing at the same level) has gone down as well... and though it's relatively rare in any year, there hasn't been a D-III victory over a D-I school for a few years either.

A lot of those have to do with match-ups... if a top D-III can play a lower-level D-I, there's a better chance for an upset than if a mid- or lower-level D-III plays a D-I mid-major... though there have still been a handful of upsets in the exhibition games... but still, no W's for what it's worth.


The WIAC has continued to maintain a healthy winning percentage against non-conference opponents (I think it's still up over 70%, maybe as high as 75% this year, which is still tops in the country as far as I know), but this is down from the early aughts... when the winning percentage was routinely above 80%.


It's interesting to note that the CCIW's winning percentage against non-con foes has dropped as well... I wonder a couple of different things here... perhaps the level of the rest of D-III has actually risen compared to the conferences that have typically been dominant...

I also wonder if we're finally seeing the result of the end of redshirting.

I made the argument several years ago that the result of the end of redshirting couldn't be fully felt until the 5th year after redshirting was disallowed (04-05 was the first year... so 08-09 was the first year where there were zero red-shirted players left in the country), though some tried to make the argument that the impact was felt earlier.

I still say that it couldn't have been directly felt... because the "advantage" of redshirting won't be seen until the redshirt senior (i.e. 5th) year for any individual player.  If anything, in any year prior, it's likely that an individual player wouldn't be quite as good in that particular year as they would have been if they had played in their first (though the argument can be made that they couldn't have gotten much time as a frosh anyway, so it might be moot).

The only indirect impact I could see in those first few years would be based on roster turnover and potentially roster size... teams tended to keep more guys so there were 15 who dressed and some who redshirted.

Sheer roster size can help a bit with attrition... some guys aren't going to last... so if you start off with more, there's a greater chance that at more will last the full 4 years.


So, that rather lengthy discussion aside... I think there maybe a few other reasons things are down.  The WIAC had three players (one all-conference and two a-c honorable mention) transfer out to go to D-II schools.  All were sophomores and all were guards... which means that they would have been upper-classmen.

That hasn't happened in recent memory... the WIAC was always a destination conference (and still is in some extent... Haas and Thomford from D-II Augustana and Palmer from St. Mary's, though Thomford and Palmer haven't finished out the year).

If Ruh, Harris, and Byrd were still in the conference, that would be three skilled players who would likely be leading their teams.  Those guys would have had the ball in their hands and been skilled defenders, so they would have risen the level of Eau Claire, Point, and Whitewater.  That's fully 1/3 of the conference would likely would have been better.

The bottom (i.e. Oshkosh and Stout) would still be pretty ragged... but they've dealt with quite a bit of injury and roster turmoil this season so that is, perhaps, to be expected.



But... all of that said, I don't really disagree with you.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Per the comment about hosting with men and women's teams... remember that in even years, men get the priority in the first weekend... women in the second; odd years women are in the first round, men in the second.

SO... if both of UWSP's teams had the resumes to host... then the priority would go to the men. The men's committee will notify the women's committee if they intend on using UWSP to host or not so the women can plan accordingly. That didn't happen very well last year for Randolph-Macon...

[GBMAN]

Don't know if this was mentioned or not or if anyone saw it... But the Point V Stout (last second shot by Stout) was on ESPN Sports Center... I think maybe top 10 plays...

[Falcons04]

Wilson is correct..........RF had over 1,500 a few times in the conference championship season of 03-04.  They setup is configured a bit differently now, but the could still take on 1,200-1,500 if they have to.  Satuday might be an indicator, as the women/men both are alive for titles and they have a double header.  I would guess it is the biggest crowd of the season.

I didn't know the NCAA criteria was only a capacity of 1,000 when considering facilites to host a pod.  If that's the case, Karges would be adequate, but my comment was more in regard to the condition of the facility.  It was built around 1960 (FredFalcon can probably give the exact year) and has been regarded as the worst in the conference for some time now.  I would guess it's not up to par with most of the high school gyms that RF's players came from.  It can handle the 500 person crowds on the average night, but it is poorly designed for ticket sales, consessions, restrooms, and spectator entrance/flow when you start talking about 1,000+ people. 

It's interesting to see the UWRF website says the facilities page is "coming soon".  Last year, they finally got state approval to move forward with a new facility which is supposed to be ready around 2015.  No construction has begun though.

I'll defer to those who have more experience with teams playing/hosting in the NCAA's, but I thought RF might not even have a shot based on the quality of the gym.  If it's more about the team's accomplishments, then they would have a legit chance to host by winning out.  Still a long way to go, but the possibility is exciting for Falcon fans who haven't been anywhere near this conversation in the past

[Just Bill]

The other factor is do we know for sure that UWRF bid to host? Sometimes the early January deadlines for schools that don't regularily host catch them by surprise. Or a school might have conflicting events alreay booked in the gym. Or they might not feel like they can do a decent job of staffing and hosting for whatever reason.

[Hoops Junkie]

If UWRF missed a deadline to host or chooses not too the administration should all be fired.  That would be a huge boost for them and thou Karges is old and needs new bleachers and the like, it is a great venue.  Its a great shooters gym and there is something about the crowd being on the floor that makes it grand.

[stoutfan1]

Alex Oman's half court shot made it onto sports center last night.  I'll see if I can find a link for it.

[SilversSports]

Feb. 24 2004 exact attendance was 1,119.  So Karges should be big enough.  Also this might be the last time the Karges Center would have an opportunity to host the NCAA tournament as it is set to be demolished within the next few years with a new gym created out by the hockey arena and football stadium as part of a new Health and Human Performance and Athletic Complex. 

[WilsonHoops]

I don't know the status of any RF bid to host but can tell you being part of the Twin Cities it would be a pretty good destination.  RF is probably less than 45 minutes from the Mall of America.

[frodotwo]

That half court shot was a killer from about 52 feet and loosely defended. Refereeing was horrible tonight as Point was mugged continually. One more free throw would have won it in regulation. Then a three by a guy shooting 11% on the year. Go Figure. I'm not one to complain much about reffing because they have a tough job, [b]but Point was continually being hand checked and pushed[/b] with no calls. Many of those offensive rebounds were over the back of Point players. But give Stout credit for taking it to Point.

[/b]

Well, actually, it doesn't sound like you are giving Stout too much credit.  Sounds more like you are saying Stout was really lucky and Point got screwed by the officiating.

Their game plan was obviously to apply pressure - as much as they could get away with and they did. I give credit to Stout for staying with Point by whatever means possible. The pressure was one thing, the rebounding was the key. And yes Stout was really lucky no one can deny that.

[John Gleich]

That half court shot was a killer from about 52 feet and loosely defended. Refereeing was horrible tonight as Point was mugged continually. One more free throw would have won it in regulation. Then a three by a guy shooting 11% on the year. Go Figure. I'm not one to complain much about reffing because they have a tough job, [b]but Point was continually being hand checked and pushed[/b] with no calls. Many of those offensive rebounds were over the back of Point players. But give Stout credit for taking it to Point.

[/b]

Well, actually, it doesn't sound like you are giving Stout too much credit.  Sounds more like you are saying Stout was really lucky and Point got screwed by the officiating.

Their game plan was obviously to apply pressure - as much as they could get away with and they did. I give credit to Stout for staying with Point by whatever means possible. The pressure was one thing, the rebounding was the key. And yes Stout was really lucky no one can deny that.

Lucky perhaps isn't the right word...

Stout came in with a certain gameplan and the game was called in such a way that their physicality was allowed to continue.  Point didn't respond all that well.

This was a situation of Stout forcing their will on Point.  But, through all of that, Point was still able to hold a 3 point lead with 2.5 second remaining.

If anybody wants to bring luck into the equation, then the aforementioned half-court shot would likely fall in this category...

The percentages are just against you making that with great regularity.


As far as the luck statement is concerned... Stout was the beneficiary of an officiating crew who allowed them to play very chippy and physical.  This played right into their gameplan and it worked.  The officiating crew could have just as easily called a tight game... which would have flown in the face of Stout's gameplan.  Perhaps they would have been able to adjust and apply pressure without what would be, in a tightly-officiated game, considered a foul, but they were not forced to make such an adjustment.

So, it is to Stout's credit that they played their gameplan well... but it was beyond their control whether they were going to be allowed to play that way on that night.

They took advantage of Point's mistakes.  That's one way to win.