MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Gregory Sager]

Yeah, I think that hosting an annual tourney automatically precludes any program from being accused of ducking another program or programs. In D3, you don't send out invitations when you host a tournament; you post a public notice opening it up to all comers (although in the past such public notices often stated that regional opponents were preferred, for Pool C purposes).

[Greek Tragedy]

It looks like Davenport and Finlandia play Whitewater and Platteville on opposite nights making their trip from Michigan worthwhile.

Greg, I would guess in some cases, there's a little more collusion than just having a public notice, like the above example. I will concede you know more about this process than I do, but I would venture a guess and say the host school can pick and choose who they want in their tournament dependent on how many teams reply. In addition, schedule who they want to play and if it's a traditional tournament or not, among other details that can favor the host team.

So, despite a public notice, I still do think a host school could duck a program or programs. Again, my original post was not accusing St. Norbert of ducking Stevens Point.  I was simply wondering why it took the two schools so long to schedule each other considering their distance between the two. Maybe it's politics, bad blood, the unwillingness to play a public school. No idea. Or, maybe Point is ducking them. Well, probably not. I'm just happy they are playing each other and if they play up in De Pere next year, I have a short trip up I-43 to see them.

[Gregory Sager]

It looks like Davenport and Finlandia play Whitewater and Platteville on opposite nights making their trip from Michigan worthwhile.

Greg, I would guess in some cases, there's a little more collusion than just having a public notice, like the above example.

How so? I don't see how this example fits the premise.

I will concede you know more about this process than I do, but I would venture a guess and say the host school can pick and choose who they want in their tournament dependent on how many teams reply.

I've never heard of a coach stalling for time when replying to a school that has accepted an open invite to the coach's school's tournament, in the hope of somebody better coming along, or stating outright to that potential opposing coach that they're looking for an offer from a more desirable team. Of course, that doesn't mean that it's never happened. I've just never heard of anything like it ever happening before.

It's actually a moot point now, because tourneys struggle to find anybody to fill out the opposition slots, as has been talked about so many times in recent seasons on d3boards.com.

In addition, schedule who they want to play and if it's a traditional tournament or not, among other details that can favor the host team.

That's not the same thing, though. We're talking about the simple opportunity to accept an open invitation to a tournament, not how that tournament will be set up. It's accepted common practice to construct the tourney bracket in a way that best favors your team if you're the host coach. Everyone knows that going in, although the unofficial coaches code is that you show a visiting coach the courtesy of letting him pick his first-round opponent if he has a legit reason for making that request of you. F'rinstance, North Park is playing Albion in mid-December, and both the Vikings and the Britons ended up joining the field of Defiance's holiday tournament. NPU head coach Tom Slyder and Albion head coach Jody May requested of Defiance head coach Tom Heil that he separate the Vikings and the Britons on the first night, because they will have played each other two weeks earlier. I don't know if that was or was not what Heil really wanted, but he accommodated them by scheduling NPU to play Baldwin-Wallace and Albion to face the host Yellow Jackets.

So, despite a public notice, I still do think a host school could duck a program or programs.

Perhaps, if you had a traditional-format tournament and you announced, after three teams had accepted the invites, to change to a classic-format tournament for the (unspoken) reason that you wanted to duck one of those three teams. But, again, I've never heard of something like that happening before.

Again, my original post was not accusing St. Norbert of ducking Stevens Point.  I was simply wondering why it took the two schools so long to schedule each other considering their distance between the two. Maybe it's politics, bad blood, the unwillingness to play a public school.

... or maybe, as others have suggested, it's just something as simple and as harmless as the two programs never being able to synch their schedules in order to fit in a game, or of one not having a slot available when the other one called to inquire about a game. Scheduling is not as easy as it looks; if I had a nickel for every time that I've heard a head coach gripe about schedulemaking, I'd have ... well, I'd have a lot of nickels.

[Pat Coleman]

Perhaps, if you had a traditional-format tournament and you announced, after three teams had accepted the invites, to change to a classic-format tournament for the (unspoken) reason that you wanted to duck one of those three teams. But, again, I've never heard of something like that happening before.

I think people think this happened between your conference and this conference last year, actually.

[badgerwarhawk]

There is no doubt that North Central "ducked" us last year when we were assured we would meet them in their tournament.  But overall I don't sense this is as big an issue in basketball compared to football.  Perhaps it's difficult and you have to travel more than you would like but schedules get filled regardless.

[Gregory Sager]

Perhaps, if you had a traditional-format tournament and you announced, after three teams had accepted the invites, to change to a classic-format tournament for the (unspoken) reason that you wanted to duck one of those three teams. But, again, I've never heard of something like that happening before.

I think people think this happened between your conference and this conference last year, actually.

There is no doubt that North Central "ducked" us last year when we were assured we would meet them in their tournament.

That argument was basically a "he said / he said" between the Warhawks and Cardinals camps. I'm agnostic on the issue. I will say this, though: AndOne is so close to the NCC men's basketball coaching staff that he has virtually unlimited access to the goings-on within the program, so I won't dismiss out of hand what he has to say about the alleged "ducking" of UWW.

I think that the vehemence with which that argument was pursued actually proves the point I made about ducking and tournaments. Nobody attached to UWW would've been up in arms about it if it hadn't been for the unwritten rule that you don't duck an invitee to your tourney by altering the format from traditional to classic after the field has already been set. In other words, if NCC did do that -- and, again, I'm not coming down on either side of the dispute -- then it's the exception that proves the rule.

[Just Bill]

Filling a four-team tournament is a pain in the ass. You grab the first three that say yes, and then try to hold onto them for dear life while they look around for a better option. It's definitely a buyers' market.

[Greek Tragedy]

Don't they sign contracts though? Maybe the "penalty" for dropping out of one tournament to join a better one is minimal and worth the fee?

[AndOne]

I've personally seen several instances over the years will a team will commit to a tournament, especially a season opening tournament and then pull out for a variety of reasons. It definitely happens.

Also, teams will call to inquire about a tourney and as soon as they are told who, besides the host school, the other team or teams are, their interest suddenly evaporates. It's a pain to even get the teams let alone hold on to them once you think you have them. 

[AndOne]

Don't they sign contracts though? Maybe the "penalty" for dropping out of one tournament to join a better one is minimal and worth the fee?

I believe this is the case. However, the problem is that a team can always agree verbally over the phone to appear. Then, when they are sent the contract, they delay signing and returning it for an attended time, and then finally either call or send a letter stating something like "thank you for the opportunity, but our plans have changed, and after further consideration, we unfortunately won't be able to take part in your tournament after all."
Since there was never any signed contract there isn't even a "penalty."

[Greek Tragedy]

Stevens Point used to run 2 annual tournaments. They had the Terry Porter tip-off tourney and the holiday-timed Sentry Classic, when high schools and the women's program also participated. The former no longer exists and the latter still is played every Christmas break (as far as I know), but the men don't participate anymore. That's too bad, because they were nice tourneys.

[Gregory Sager]

I'm amazed that anybody still hold a tournament anymore. As Bill and Mark said, it's a tremendous pain to not only get commitments from opponents but to hold onto them. I'm not sure that hosting a tourney is really worth the bother, and the dwindling number of tournaments held in D3 each year tells me that a lot of coaches and administrators agree.

[Just Bill]

Like AndOne said, most teams won't return the contract until they absolutely have to (sometimes just before the season starts). They can do that, because they can be pretty confident that the host school won't be able to find a different school to bump them out. Too many hosts and not enough participants.

[Greek Tragedy]

I suppose the schools got smart and figured if D3hoops wants to take the time and effort, let them host the Vegas tourney. I'm guessing there is some kind of monetary incentive for neutral parties to host such events, like the Just A Game tourney held in Wisconsin Dells now.

There's also the whole travel-partner scenario like I previously mentioned where there's probably an agreement where 4 schools play opposite opponents and the CCIW/MIAA challenge.

There still seems to be plenty of tradional tournaments out there where 3 schools travel to one location, so I don't see them going away any time soon.

[Greek Tragedy]

Took a quick look at the WIAC teams' schedules and all of the teams that posted schedules (Point is the only one that hasn't) have at least TWO instances where they are either playing in official tournaments and/or playing back to back games, which is basically a tournament, schedule-wise.

On a different note, I'm looking forward to the new schedule where all of the non conference games are played before the new year and then it's strictly conference games after that. I know a lot of leagues already do this, but I always felt a little strange playing 3 or 4 conference games at the beginning of December and then waiting 3 weeks before another conference game is played.