MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Gregory Sager]

They already have, Bill. It happened a week and a half ago.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

To Greek Tragedy:  Yes, this is the first season for Rhodes' new "System"...

Is it really the Arseneault System used by Grinnell, or is it some other form of run-and-gun (e.g., the Westhead style)?

Technically these two styles are similar, actually. Based on the same idea and system. Arseneault has added the bench depth and maybe picked up the pace a little.

Now, I will say there is the system Roanoke had been using for a long time and had a bit of success with last year - that is based more on what VMI and some others are known for. I don't have any insight on what Rhodes might be doing.

[Gregory Sager]

There's some pretty significant differences between the Arseneault style and the Westphal style besides the fact that the Arseneault System runs in 15-to-17 guys per game via sixty-second hockey line shifts while Westphal just relied upon having nine of the best-conditioned athletes on the planet. Arseneault's system is predicated upon reaching specific numerical goals; Westphal's much less complicated style of play was simply to outscore the other team. Arseneault requires ball movement; Westphal's idea was to chuck it at the basket as soon as you got within 25 feet of it. Arseneault's style is all about highly specific sets and throw-in plays; Westphal's was about player creativity and role assignment and was more of a strategic philosophy than a specific set of X-and-O tactics. And there's other differences, too, some related to the size of the roster and the roles of the players on it.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

All fair points... but I have always been under the impression from where ever I got the info that the current "System" is based on what Westphal did... that said, wasn't Redlands utilizing this before Grinnell? We have an old article I need to go look back at to confirm some things.

[Just Bill]

They already have, Bill. It happened a week and a half ago.

Ok, then.

[AppletonRocks]

All fair points... but I have always been under the impression from where ever I got the info that the current "System" is based on what Westphal did... that said, wasn't Redlands utilizing this before Grinnell? We have an old article I need to go look back at to confirm some things.

Just my opinion, but spending anymore time on this "system" on a basketball site seems rather pointless. 

[Gregory Sager]

All fair points... but I have always been under the impression from where ever I got the info that the current "System" is based on what Westphal did... that said, wasn't Redlands utilizing this before Grinnell? We have an old article I need to go look back at to confirm some things.

Nope. Gary Smith, who was already an uptempo-oriented coach who had been influenced by Westphal, borrowed the Arseneault System from Grinnell and implemented it in 2002-03 at Redlands with a tweak or two of his own. (After he retired from Redlands he was an assistant for a year at Grinnell under Dave Arseneault.) Arseneault developed the System in the early '90s.

This interview with Smith explains the chronology.

Wikipedia claims that the System is a variation of Westphal's philosophy, but, in classic Wikipedia fashion, the reference it uses -- this Yahoo! Sports article about Jack Taylor's notorious 138-point scoring spree for Grinnell against Faith Baptist Bible College during the 2012-13 season -- contains no actual documentation linking the System to Westphal. It's basically just Wikipedia making a claim because some online journalist made the same claim.

[WUPHF]

Wait, Westhead as in Loyola Marymount or Westphal?

[Gregory Sager]

Westhead. Sorry.

I'm always mixing them up, especially since they have the same first name. To make things worse, they both coached at D1 schools in the L.A. area. Heck, the wiki entry for Westhead actually says at the top, "Not to be confused with Paul Westphal."

[sac]

Its actually possible to score a lot of points and play fast paced basketball without running "the system".

They already have, Bill. It happened a week and a half ago.

59 turnovers, 69 fouls and 99 free-throw attempts.  Ugh, no thank you.

[Gregory Sager]

Its actually possible to score a lot of points and play fast paced basketball without running "the system".

Exactly. A good example on the D3 level is John Carroll.

They already have, Bill. It happened a week and a half ago.

59 turnovers, 69 fouls and 99 free-throw attempts.  Ugh, no thank you.

A baseball box score notes how long it took for the game to be played. I wish that basketball box scores did as well. Who knows how long it took to play this weird contest?

[fredfalcon]

RF (7-1) over Superior 92-63. Herink, Buckley, Witt, Seifert, Pearson w/ 19, 15, 11,11,11 respectively.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Well, guess what, guys?  There's an Around the Nation column on The System scheduled for January, so we'll get some more info.

As far as I know right now (before most of the interviews) - the Grinnell System was not based on any other offensive style, but worked out with a professor from the math dept to maximize statistical advantages.  If you watch a System team run it well, it really does look nothing like any offense or defense you've ever seen.  Defense is really the key word; I know in what little conversations I've had directly, that they work far more on the press than on offense.  Offense has a few set plays designed to get shooters open, but it's overall pretty simple - the whole System is predicated on speeding up the game to a level where 1) opposing players have trouble making good decisions, and 2) they get too tired to play well by the end of the second half.

The classic "System" era was towards the end of last decade when they had Arsenault Jr and John Grotberg, both players with talent levels several steps above the normal GC basketball player.  They were also blessed with a couple tall, athletic guys with long arms - ideal for the five man in a System press.

Rhodes does look to be running the System or something similar.  I promise to check in with them as I prepare the column.  It's been since 2003 that D3hoops did something formal on the System itself and its long overdue for an update.  Grinnell is the inventor of the System - Redlands adopted it for a while in the 2000's, the North Central women use it, as well as the Greenville men.  A few other programs have experimented over the years.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Its actually possible to score a lot of points and play fast paced basketball without running "the system".

Exactly. A good example on the D3 level is John Carroll.

Though, JCU does sub five in and five out every 90 seconds to two minutes... but they don't go as deep on the bench.

[Greek Tragedy]

Bobby Long was also part of that (actually) talented group during that period. He could really stroke it. He and Grotberg played professionally, I believe, while Little A has coached some minor league teams and is cureent coaching Grinnell (again) while his dad is on sabbatical  (I think!).