MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Gregory Sager]

If you're attributing proper execution to sideline yelping, then by definition you're precluding the possibility that those players are executing well because they've been prepared beforehand to do so. If you need to goad your players into doing the right thing by screaming at them, then you've left something out in your pregame prep, because college basketball players are not mindless automatons whose buttons need to be pushed or ten-year-olds whose ability to take instruction and then incorporate it into their game performance is severely limited. More to the point, the game of basketball is chock-full of successful coaches who get what they want out of their players without having to scream at them and dance and toss their jackets and stomp their feet.

Of course players want to be coached. But coaching =/= berserk sideline behavior.

[chmarx]

If you look at the top level of baasketball ccoaching, for every Bob Knight, there are at least a dozen top-line coaches who don't scream at their players.

[4samuy]

If you're attributing proper execution to sideline yelping, then by definition you're precluding the possibility that those players are executing well because they've been prepared beforehand to do so. If you need to goad your players into doing the right thing by screaming at them, then you've left something out in your pregame prep, because college basketball players are not mindless automatons whose buttons need to be pushed or ten-year-olds whose ability to take instruction and then incorporate it into their game performance is severely limited. More to the point, the game of basketball is chock-full of successful coaches who get what they want out of their players without having to scream at them and dance and toss their jackets and stomp their feet.

Of course players want to be coached. But coaching =/= berserk sideline behavior.

Automatons and ten year olds, come on really?  Can you give me a player that left the program due to the coach?   I agree every coach has a different style and has different ways to get through to his players,  you said yourself, and I'm paraphrasing, that Giovanine players swear by him or revere him. I believe much of his antics that you refer to (throwing off his jacket etc.) have more to do with trying to get under the refs skin and letting his players know that he's got their back.

[Mr. Ypsi]

If you're attributing proper execution to sideline yelping, then by definition you're precluding the possibility that those players are executing well because they've been prepared beforehand to do so. If you need to goad your players into doing the right thing by screaming at them, then you've left something out in your pregame prep, because college basketball players are not mindless automatons whose buttons need to be pushed or ten-year-olds whose ability to take instruction and then incorporate it into their game performance is severely limited. More to the point, the game of basketball is chock-full of successful coaches who get what they want out of their players without having to scream at them and dance and toss their jackets and stomp their feet.

Of course players want to be coached. But coaching =/= berserk sideline behavior.

Automatons and ten year olds, come on really?  Can you give me a player that left the program due to the coach?   I agree every coach has a different style and has different ways to get through to his players,  you said yourself, and I'm paraphrasing, that Giovanine players swear by him or revere him. I believe much of his antics that you refer to (throwing off his jacket etc.) have more to do with trying to get under the refs skin and letting his players know that he's got their back.

Yeah, and as I said earlier, if John Wooden had behaved more like Grey Giovanine, he might have won some national titles.

I respect the success Giovanine has had at Augie, but he is still TEN titles behind the Wizard of Westwood, and he still comes off as an immature jerk.

As Greg already pointed out, players who enroll at Augie presumably know what they are getting into in terms of coaching.  Being self-selected (so to speak) they are not likely to bail, just as very few players bailed on Bobby Knight.  That doesn't keep me from believing (simultaneously) that Grey and Bobby are basketball geniuses and human deficiencies.

Woody Hayes was a VERY successful and much beloved coach - he also got fired for punching an opposing player.  Being VERY good at your job (mostly) does not guarantee you are not woefully inadequate in some other part of it.

[AppletonRocks]

We all know they go to Augie for the beach scene. 

[Gregory Sager]

If you're attributing proper execution to sideline yelping, then by definition you're precluding the possibility that those players are executing well because they've been prepared beforehand to do so. If you need to goad your players into doing the right thing by screaming at them, then you've left something out in your pregame prep, because college basketball players are not mindless automatons whose buttons need to be pushed or ten-year-olds whose ability to take instruction and then incorporate it into their game performance is severely limited. More to the point, the game of basketball is chock-full of successful coaches who get what they want out of their players without having to scream at them and dance and toss their jackets and stomp their feet.

Of course players want to be coached. But coaching =/= berserk sideline behavior.

Automatons and ten year olds, come on really?  Can you give me a player that left the program due to the coach?

I'm sure that there have been players who've left the program because of him, but for the most part I'm not privy to enough inside info within the Augie program to really know any details about why players leave. But that's beside the point. It's not about retention or about how much his players respect or don't respect him. It's about whether or not it's really necessary for him to behave in a way that embarrasses his team and his school and, in an important way, himself. Step back from college basketball for a moment and ponder what he's doing. Is this normal public behavior for a grown man? Do you think that this would be considered acceptable in a classroom or a boardroom? (He is, after all, both a teacher and the executive officer of his program.) Most of all, is it necessary? As chmarx and Mr. Ypsi have already attested, the answer to that second question is, "Certainly not!"

I agree every coach has a different style and has different ways to get through to his players,  you said yourself, and I'm paraphrasing, that Giovanine players swear by him or revere him.

I'll say this for the third time: Augustana players know what they're getting into when they decide to enroll there.

I believe much of his antics that you refer to (throwing off his jacket etc.) have more to do with trying to get under the refs skin and letting his players know that he's got their back.

I've watched Grey Giovanine coach Augie for two decades now, and I've seen no evidence whatsoever that Augie gets positive calls to go its way that it shouldn't get, or that Augie doesn't get negative calls that it ought to get, aside from stuff that can be written off as a simple case of the refs not seeing what happened. CCIW refs are all pretty used to him, and they have noticeably thick armor where he's concerned. The CCIW has some master manipulators on its sidelines -- Bosko Djurickovic can courtroom-lawyer with the best of them, for example -- but, for as much criticism as the CCIW officiating pool gets sometimes, one thing that you can say on their collective behalf is that they are immune to the influence of coaches.

As for "letting his players know that he's got their back" ... really? I can see that in terms of his yelling at the refs. But the problem with your assertion is that he spends most of the game yelling at his players, not at the refs. He doesn't have their backs; he's on their backs.

All of that yelling and jumping around and coat-tossing and stomping isn't about the refs or the players. It's about him.

Being VERY good at your job (mostly) does not guarantee you are not woefully inadequate in some other part of it.

Exactly.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

There are lots of losing coaches who yell at players, too.  I mean, maybe it's just a matter of (whoever you're talking about) "this guy must be a heckofa coach to treat his players that way and still win games."  Bobby Knight didn't lose many players during his tenure, but he did lose Larry Bird, right?  And that guy ain't nothing but hard.

[hopefan]

Let me tell you Greg, Coach slammed the scorer's table hard enough I'm surprised it didn't break in two when a call went the other direction in the Augie-Wash U game, but there was no technical...  This after seeing Greenville get 5 T's at Grinnell (likely all deserved, but 'quiet' T's), I had to chuckle.  Would any other coach have gotten a T for that kind of action... I think likely so... ... Coach G's behavior.. bad behavior such as that should not be acceptable.

[Gregory Sager]

Yeah, I have to amend what I said before. I've seen no evidence whatsoever that Augie gets positive calls to go its way that it shouldn't get, or that Augie doesn't get negative calls that it ought to get in terms of the actions of the Augustana players. But Grey Giovanine, as you said, gets a pretty long leash from officials when it comes to behavior that ought to buy him a T-bone every time from the men in stripes.

[AndOne]

In 11 years of observing The Stomper, as I call him, I can remember maybe 2 or 3 games where he didn't do something that would have earned 99% of coaches a very quick T. Tossing his sport coat into the stands, the staccato stomping of his foot hard enough to leave dents in the floor, his rapidly fist punching the air, and his infamous "wave-offs," just to name a few. Personally, I think he has a great many of the refs intimidated to the point they are almost afraid that if they do indeed hit him with a T, that he'll run onto the court and take a bite out of them. Give him credit for knowing exactly what he can get away with. However, to his discredit, his on-court behavior resembles that of a 10 year old who throws a tantrum and screams in the grocery store because mommy won't buy him the candy he wants.

My favorite Stomper moment of depravity occurred some years ago at Augie when, with only a second left in a tie game, one of his players was called for a foul. While it was a definite foul, the player fouled had no idea of either what he was supposed to do, or wanted to do on the play. He certainly was not shooting or even attacking the basket, and was basically dribbling parallel to the FT line, a couple of feet behind it. Although the Augie player definitely fouled him in trying to steal the ball, most refs would have let it go. The foulee promptly drained both FTs for the game winning points. Immediately after the final buzzer, the refs began sprinting for their locker room, no doubt terrified of impending sudden death as The Stomper charged after them. He had ripped off his sport coat and grabbed it by the end of one sleeve, twirling it over his head like a lasso as he chased after the refs like a mad dog, screaming at the top of his lungs. I expected him to begin foaming at the mouth at any second. He was finally intercepted by security personnel just short of the refs locker room door. I think the refs later received a police escort to their cars. Amazing.

[4samuy]

If you're attributing proper execution to sideline yelping, then by definition you're precluding the possibility that those players are executing well because they've been prepared beforehand to do so. If you need to goad your players into doing the right thing by screaming at them, then you've left something out in your pregame prep, because college basketball players are not mindless automatons whose buttons need to be pushed or ten-year-olds whose ability to take instruction and then incorporate it into their game performance is severely limited. More to the point, the game of basketball is chock-full of successful coaches who get what they want out of their players without having to scream at them and dance and toss their jackets and stomp their feet.

Of course players want to be coached. But coaching =/= berserk sideline behavior.

Automatons and ten year olds, come on really?  Can you give me a player that left the program due to the coach?

I'm sure that there have been players who've left the program because of him, but for the most part I'm not privy to enough inside info within the Augie program to really know any details about why players leave. But that's beside the point. It's not about retention or about how much his players respect or don't respect him. It's about whether or not it's really necessary for him to behave in a way that embarrasses his team and his school and, in an important way, himself. Step back from college basketball for a moment and ponder what he's doing. Is this normal public behavior for a grown man? Do you think that this would be considered acceptable in a classroom or a boardroom? (He is, after all, both a teacher and the executive officer of his program.) Most of all, is it necessary? As chmarx and Mr. Ypsi have already attested, the answer to that second question is, "Certainly not!"

I agree every coach has a different style and has different ways to get through to his players,  you said yourself, and I'm paraphrasing, that Giovanine players swear by him or revere him.

I'll say this for the third time: Augustana players know what they're getting into when they decide to enroll there.

I believe much of his antics that you refer to (throwing off his jacket etc.) have more to do with trying to get under the refs skin and letting his players know that he's got their back.

I've watched Grey Giovanine coach Augie for two decades now, and I've seen no evidence whatsoever that Augie gets positive calls to go its way that it shouldn't get, or that Augie doesn't get negative calls that it ought to get, aside from stuff that can be written off as a simple case of the refs not seeing what happened. CCIW refs are all pretty used to him, and they have noticeably thick armor where he's concerned. The CCIW has some master manipulators on its sidelines -- Bosko Djurickovic can courtroom-lawyer with the best of them, for example -- but, for as much criticism as the CCIW officiating pool gets sometimes, one thing that you can say on their collective behalf is that they are immune to the influence of coaches.

As for "letting his players know that he's got their back" ... really? I can see that in terms of his yelling at the refs. But the problem with your assertion is that he spends most of the game yelling at his players, not at the refs. He doesn't have their backs; he's on their backs.

All of that yelling and jumping around and coat-tossing and stomping isn't about the refs or the players. It's about him.

Being VERY good at your job (mostly) does not guarantee you are not woefully inadequate in some other part of it.

Exactly.

This will be my last thought on Giovanine.  I haven't said and never will say I agree with his sideline demeanor.  I was stating, IMO why it works for him and his program. But, as some have stated, if he is really embarrasing his players and the school, then shame on the administration officials  for allowing him to continue as the "CEO" of the basketball program.  Again, all coaches have different methods on how they run their program, develop their kids, exhibit themselves on the sidelines and get needed results.  Congrats to Giovanine on his pending induction into the IBCA Hall of Fame. He's obviously doing something right.

[AndOne]

And my last thoughts-

* There are schools you want to beat because you feel they have some type of built in advantage.
* There are schools you want to beat because you feel while they technically operate within the rules,
   you feel they barely do so, and are consequently a bit "dirty."
* There are schools you want to beat because they are not only good, but they flaunt it. They walk
    around with their noses in the air, and aren't satisfied just to win. They want you to bow down
    after they beat you and say, "yes team X, you're the greatest D3 school and team ever."
* There are schools you want to beat because they are your traditional rival.
* There is only one school that you have none of the above feelings about. But you still want to
    beat them just as much as the other teams because, while they have a great Xs and Os coach,
    they also have one who terrorizes refs, belittles players, and generally acts like a hyena on the
    sidelines.
    You know who I'm talkin' 'bout. 

[Greek Tragedy]

Back to WIAC news...

Wonder if any games (2?) involving WIAC teams will get postponed this weekend because of the big storms coming through. Maybe it'll be through Minnesota and Iowa by tomorrow.

[Gregory Sager]

Dunno about Wisconsin, but the snow's going to start here in Chicago late this afternoon, and it's not supposed to stop until early Sunday morning -- at which point the thermometer is going to plummet downward to negative numbers by noon.

Great.

[AppletonRocks]

Dunno about Wisconsin, but the snow's going to start here in Chicago late this afternoon, and it's not supposed to stop until early Sunday morning -- at which point the thermometer is going to plummet downward to negative numbers by noon.

Great.

Another opportunity for the WIAC to show its superior toughness.