MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[fredfalcon]

jimhoops--you are right. RF won its only NCAA game in program history vs. Bethel. They went to the NAIA nationals in the 50's, but lost to Edgewood, and Illinois Wesleyan in their first two tries in the NCAA.

When you shoot 22% to your opponent's 52%, you can coach your butt off and you will still lose big time. That's basketball.

[sac]

One small correction to Greg's post above:

Jordan Jarret and Chad Palmer are officials from the State of Michigan, they are assigned D2, D3 and NAIA games from a large pool of officials.  Out of that pool we have a core group that we recognize as "MIAA officials", Palmer and Jarret do frequent MIAA games.


Brian Shore is from Indiana, I don't recall his name in any MIAA boxscores, he's not recognized as a league regular.

[Gregory Sager]

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you at all, BW. I'm just saying that that's the tendency I've noticed among officials, that whole "Get in your complaints now, because if you're still barking at me about it after the game resumes I'm not going to tolerate it" mentality. It must be some sort of an unspoken protocol among officials, because I've seen that play out a number of times in past ballgames. I'm not saying that that's right, either, just that it exists.

One small correction to Greg's post above:

Jordan Jarret and Chad Palmer are officials from the State of Michigan, they are assigned D2, D3 and NAIA games from a large pool of officials.  Out of that pool we have a core group that we recognize as "MIAA officials", Palmer and Jarret do frequent MIAA games.


Brian Shore is from Indiana, I don't recall his name in any MIAA boxscores, he's not recognized as a league regular.

Yes, I should've noted that. I've only seen Shore in HCAC boxscores, but because I knew that Palmer and Jarrett do MIAA games I figured that Shore must've done some MIAA games as well. I thought that officials were all assigned from the same league, but apparently that's not necessarily the case anymore.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Just a note from a number of officials I have gotten to know over the years and even watched games with... while language is always number-one in these situations, number two would be "showing up" the ref. You may say something that is construed as trying to show them up, demean them, or get brownie points with the fans or others close enough in attendance that the refs feel demeans them. Sure, a mistake was made and I am sure the ref went home kicking himself because they don't like making those kinds of mistakes. But there are guidelines in place with the understand that mistakes happen. To compound that and tell a ref loud enough for many to hear - because you know it was loud enough - including two broadcasts right next to Pat Miller (I wasn't listening close enough to know whether it could be heard), I know a lot of refs who will not take that. They will take the abuse for the mistake and you can tell them you don't appreciate it, but when you cross a line of saying "that was a rookie mistake" in the heat of the moment, it might be a line too far (we also don't know what was said leading up because the lead up may have caused the final comment to be too much).

I remember at the D3hoops.com Classic a few years ago when Platteville was there and they were NOT playing well in the second game. Apparently the end of the bench knew more about officiating than those doing the games (and we usually get pretty solid refs who have no prior experience of the teams and games they are calling)... after a no-call (my memory is it wasn't a call or at least was consistent with the game), a player at the end yelled out something to the effect of, "quit calling this game like you have money on it." (A) We are in Vegas, (b) it was heard on the other side of the court, (c) it was the end of the bench. No... not swears, but a T was quickly offered. I was behind the bench and the kid wanted to hide so fast. I thought the coach was going to kill him when he found out the "why."

Don't show up a ref is the usual adage. I personally feel it doesn't matter how screwed up things are... in a late game a coach has to keep quiet and swallow it no matter how badly he wants to go off. At the same (?) D3hoops.com Classic, Eric Bridgeland got T'ed up in overtime against UWSP because he didn't like a no-call... that quickly escalated to a double-tech and a one-possession ball game  turned into a Stevens Point win with no time coming off the clock. Bridgeland lost his cool last night and was given a lot of leash before he got T'ed up by the ref trying to get him out of trouble. As I watched, Bridgeland stepped over the line for a second T and the refs tried their best to keep it from happening. I think Bridgeland was one more comment or action away from seeing the locker room with 7:03 left in the first half.

This is the tournament. Sometimes pride has to take a back seat. Ironically, it was two coaches last night in this game that are notorious for letting refs know their opinions and I think it bit Miller back. (I didn't see Grey's "efforts" shortly after that as I was bouncing between games).

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I don't mind a technical for that - "rookie mistake" can be seen as demeaning to the official.  Coaches should get plenty of leeway to argue or disparage a particular call, but one it becomes about the refs themselves of their ability to do their job, it's more difficult.  I've seen plenty of games where refs letting coaches get away with that migrates to the players, who make similar comments and the game degenerates.  Coaches should let the fans go after the refs and worry about the specific calls themselves.

I might not have given a technical for that, but it would at least be a serious warning - and I don't have an issue with it being given.

[Gregory Sager]

And that's where I think that the timing issue comes into it. One of the great things about D3 is that there's gyms all over the country at this level where you can sit close enough to the bench or to the scorer's table to hear a coach dress down an official. If you've never sat close enough to hear a tirade like the one that Pat Miller gave to that official last night, believe me -- it can be downright blistering (albeit carefully self-edited to avoid certain trigger words). And the amazing thing is that the vast majority of officials will stand there and take it, particularly if (as was the case last night) the coach has a legitimate grievance and the officials were at fault.

But there's a limit to that. Once the official walks away and the ball is put back into play, the understanding is that you as a coach have already been given your opportunity to speak your mind, and now everybody has to move on. Therefore, starting up the tirade again after play has resumed is, as Dave and Ryan alluded, interpreted as showing up the official.

[AppletonRocks]

Since Miller works them all night,every night, he probably will get more rope than average.  I sat over 150 ft away from him at Whitewater one night and  was apalled by how he treated the officials, since I could hear him ragging at them even when he was up big and his complaints were specious. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[RedHotFalcon]

The problem with reffing is that's it's hard and they are going to make mistakes. Consistency is all any coach looks for. If you see a foul type on one side you want to see it on the other. Problem rotation. That's not his area this time. Now it feels like a call made one way is not on the other side. Refs like to be right. For instance, last nights game. Smart decision. Missed ft, ww secure rebound, ref blew dead thinking 2 shot foul. Oops 1/1. Ww ball right, nope ref decides jump ball. What coach wouldn't be mad. Ball goes to other team. I've seen many games where you see a ref never blow the whistle for a team. How is that possible? Here's my bigger issue. These aren't volunteers. They are selected and paid. There should be some self evaluations. Miss the mark, can't get better , next guy up. We have too many bad refs.

[fredfalcon]

RHF--I do not agree that we have too many bad refs.Your first sentence about how difficult reffing is, and that referees are going to make mistakes is sensible. I see very few wrong calls, especially of the kind discussed in the WW game. A "bad call" is not the wrong call. It's one the fan disagrees with. Who is in the best position to make the call? Certainly not the fan.

Refs make far fewer mistakes than players do. And referees' mistakes do not decide outcomes any more than one player's mistake near the end of the game loses the game.

How much experience do you have as a referee? What does "I've seen many games where you see a ref never blow the whistle for a team" mean? Referees are supposed to blow a whistle FOR A TEAM?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

RHF--I do not agree that we have too many bad refs.Your first sentence about how difficult reffing is, and that referees are going to make mistakes is sensible. I see very few wrong calls, especially of the kind discussed in the WW game. A "bad call" is not the wrong call. It's one the fan disagrees with. Who is in the best position to make the call? Certainly not the fan.

Refs make far fewer mistakes than players do. And referees' mistakes do not decide outcomes any more than one player's mistake near the end of the game loses the game.

How much experience do you have as a referee? What does "I've seen many games where you see a ref never blow the whistle for a team" mean? Referees are supposed to blow a whistle FOR A TEAM?

Well said on many fronts. I can't tell you how many times I have been asked or heard a ref as for video of a game because they want to pour over it to see how they can improve. And the idea that refs make a lot of mistakes is a misnomer. It is usually said by fans who (a) don't actually know what the right call really is, (b) are tainted by the color of their glasses on what the right call is, and (c) couldn't ref a game accurately if you gave them a whistle and told them to join the crew.

If anyone thinks the refs at this point in the season are just thrown out there for games, you are crazy. These tend to be the highest rated officials in their regions and leagues. They don't get here just because they wear black and white. And again, they are human. He screwed up the foul count, blew his whistle, but then handled it with the help of his crew to get it right after the fact. Moving on. Something Pat probably wishes he had done.

[sac]

RHF--I do not agree that we have too many bad refs.Your first sentence about how difficult reffing is, and that referees are going to make mistakes is sensible. I see very few wrong calls, especially of the kind discussed in the WW game. A "bad call" is not the wrong call. It's one the fan disagrees with. Who is in the best position to make the call? Certainly not the fan.

Refs make far fewer mistakes than players do. And referees' mistakes do not decide outcomes any more than one player's mistake near the end of the game loses the game.

How much experience do you have as a referee? What does "I've seen many games where you see a ref never blow the whistle for a team" mean? Referees are supposed to blow a whistle FOR A TEAM?

Well said on many fronts. I can't tell you how many times I have been asked or heard a ref as for video of a game because they want to pour over it to see how they can improve. And the idea that refs make a lot of mistakes is a misnomer. It is usually said by fans who (a) don't actually know what the right call really is, (b) are tainted by the color of their glasses on what the right call is, and (c) couldn't ref a game accurately if you gave them a whistle and told them to join the crew.

If anyone thinks the refs at this point in the season are just thrown out there for games, you are crazy. These tend to be the highest rated officials in their regions and leagues. They don't get here just because they wear black and white. And again, they are human. He screwed up the foul count, blew his whistle, but then handled it with the help of his crew to get it right after the fact. Moving on. Something Pat probably wishes he had done.

To a certain degree that is true, but most of the highest rated officials in any region would have been working D2 conference tournament games this weekend.  These are highly rated, but probably not the highest rated in their areas.

Just as an example, the crew that worked our MIAA Championship game, absolutely the best possible combination in the state of Michigan for small college basketball were all working the D2 GLIAC tournament and not the NCAA D3 tournament this weekend.

The MIAA officials working at Whitewater, Jarret and Palmer, both worked our MIAA semi-final, but not the championship game.  Highly rated, but not the highest rated.

[Gregory Sager]

The problem with reffing is that's it's hard and they are going to make mistakes. Consistency is all any coach looks for. If you see a foul type on one side you want to see it on the other. Problem rotation. That's not his area this time. Now it feels like a call made one way is not on the other side. Refs like to be right. For instance, last nights game. Smart decision. Missed ft, ww secure rebound, ref blew dead thinking 2 shot foul. Oops 1/1.

And again, they are human. He screwed up the foul count, blew his whistle, but then handled it with the help of his crew to get it right after the fact.

To be accurate, the foul on Drew Bryson was signaled as a two-shot foul prior to Nolan Ebel's missed free throw. The players didn't all scramble after the miss, because they'd been told that it was a two-shot foul. Some of them moved, some of them didn't, but nobody really went into full live-ball mode. Thus, neither the UWW players nor the Augustana players secured what they understood to be a dead-ball rebound. One of the other officials should've stepped in and corrected the erring official who'd signaled for two shots prior to Ebel releasing the ball.

[RedHotFalcon]

FF. We have a different view on the reffing. It is hard. I'm sure I'd make mistakes. Just imagine you out there. You hardly ever see a bad call. Best refs, you don't notice and can talk to coaches.

[GoldandBlueBU]

Late, but wanted to offer congrats to UWRF on the win over BU.

Heck of a game!  The Falcons were in a very tough spot in the first overtime, and never gave up! 

When it went to double OT, I sort of figured that whoever won would be at a disadvantage the following night, given the minutes that the starters racked up, unfortunate to see that play out.

[badgerwarhawk]

The problem with reffing is that's it's hard and they are going to make mistakes. Consistency is all any coach looks for. If you see a foul type on one side you want to see it on the other. Problem rotation. That's not his area this time. Now it feels like a call made one way is not on the other side. Refs like to be right. For instance, last nights game. Smart decision. Missed ft, ww secure rebound, ref blew dead thinking 2 shot foul. Oops 1/1.

And again, they are human. He screwed up the foul count, blew his whistle, but then handled it with the help of his crew to get it right after the fact.

To be accurate, the foul on Drew Bryson was signaled as a two-shot foul prior to Nolan Ebel's missed free throw. The players didn't all scramble after the miss, because they'd been told that it was a two-shot foul. Some of them moved, some of them didn't, but nobody really went into full live-ball mode. Thus, neither the UWW players nor the Augustana players secured what they understood to be a dead-ball rebound. One of the other officials should've stepped in and corrected the erring official who'd signaled for two shots prior to Ebel releasing the ball.

The official who called the foul signaled it as a bonus to begin with.  .