MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Greek Tragedy]

Playing Winona State in an exhibition is about as tough of a game as you possibly to get ... they are not MAYBE better than a WIAC school, they are better.  D2 versus D3, national champs ...

The downside of playing a school like Winona is you might lose ... a loss like that early in the season could be very demoralizing.  Just ask Minnesota.  Although UW is a much better team than Minnesota.

Specific to the committment/obligation ... my point is with Bo Ryan having his roots in the WIAC, he probably has an affinity towards them.  Giving the WIAC schools a chance to play UW in an exhibition game is a way for him to payback the WIAC as well as giving them a shot at playing on the Kohl Center floor along with the extra cash that comes with playing in Madison.

Call it a labor of love!

Specific to exhibition games ... the last thing you want to do is to lose a game that you shouldn't lose and having it affect the pysche of your team and fans. 

I'll keep it going just because it's a fun argument! lol  .

Yes, Winona State won the D2 National Championship TWO years ago and finished runner up last year, but simply because they are D2 and the WIAC is D3, doesn't mean they are automatically better.  Stevens Point's National Championship team played Marquette very close before falling at the end of the game. 

You say the downside of playing Winona is that they may lose, hurting morale, but they can't take for granted that they'll beat a WIAC team either.  So, if they lose to a WIAC team, does that mean their feelings aren't hurt because it's just a WIAC team and Bo Ryan played them as a favor? 

You say that Ryan wants to play a strong schedule and then you say you don't want to play Winona because the last thing you want to do is lose a game you shouldn't lose.  Don't schedule good teams if you're afraid of losing then!  I'm in the school of thought that you play good teams to get better, not play cupcakes so everyone feels all warm and fuzzy inside. 

I play in a coed soccer league and it's no fun beating up on a team 10-2.  I'd rather lose 6-5 and have a competitive game and an opponent that challenges you.  Sure, I'm comparing a coed rec. league to D1 basketball, but in some sense, it's the same concept, especially in exibition games, IMO.

[chmarx]

I would be amazed if UW played an exhibition against Winona.  Ryan schedules against WIAC teams primarily to help us, not the Badgers, IMNSHO.  Why should he help a team from another state?

[wcbsas]

Why should he help a team from another state?

Again the ONLY reason would be as a favor to his senior guard Michael Flowers, who's brother Jonte is a senior forward at Winona.  ONLY reason!

[wcbsas]

Yes, Winona State won the D2 National Championship TWO years ago and finished runner up last year, but simply because they are D2 and the WIAC is D3, doesn't mean they are automatically better.  Stevens Point's National Championship team played Marquette very close before falling at the end of the game. 

D2 is better than D3 for the same reason as D1 is better than D2.
Could some D3 teams be better than some D2 teams?  Sure, but a team that is arguably in the top 5 of D2 is better, and likely much better than any D3 team.

Would Winona win 50% of the games against Minnesota if they played every year?  Unlikely.

P.S. We'll have a chance to find out how the WIAC stands up to Winona as UW-Stout plays them in the regular season this coming year!

You say the downside of playing Winona is that they may lose, hurting morale, but they can't take for granted that they'll beat a WIAC team either.  So, if they lose to a WIAC team, does that mean their feelings aren't hurt because it's just a WIAC team and Bo Ryan played them as a favor? 

The likelihood of losing to a D3 team is much less than losing to a D2 team.  When is the last time (anywhere) where a D3 team beat a D1 team in exhibition or regular season? 

Its always a risk, anyone can lose anywhere at anytime but ... if you have to play an exhibition game play one that (a) you're very likely to win and (b) does a favor to an in-state team WIAC that Bo Ryan has more allegiances to.

You say that Ryan wants to play a strong schedule and then you say you don't want to play Winona because the last thing you want to do is lose a game you shouldn't lose.  Don't schedule good teams if you're afraid of losing then!  I'm in the school of thought that you play good teams to get better, not play cupcakes so everyone feels all warm and fuzzy inside. 

Ryan wants to play a strong enough schedule to get his RPI high enough to guarentee an NCAA bid.  He wants his RPI at a minimum in the 40's.  A Big10/11 schedule is going partways to guarentee that ... but he needs to play enough strong non-conference teams to help his RPI ... conversely playing weak teams (such as NDSU. Gardner Webb ...) and negatively affect the RPI.  You can still play a number of those because they end up being home days and bigger paydays for the program and athletic department.

Specific to scheduling a "loseable" game as an exhibition ... in some cases, it could be a demoralizing loss.  Last year Minnesota was a really horrible team but losing to Winona in the exhibition sapped their confidence, help push their head coach to resign early in the season ... Lastly scheduling a tough losable game in the exhibition doesn't do anything to help the RPI so that agrument is out. 

Can a strong veteran team play a tough exhibition game and overcome a possible loss?  Absolutely but this coming year's Badgers team while having its share of veteran players will be searching for an offensive identity, breaking in a new point guard and will be playing a lot of young players.

Good discussions I appreciate the excellent banter!

[Pat Coleman]

The likelihood of losing to a D3 team is much less than losing to a D2 team.  When is the last time (anywhere) where a D3 team beat a D1 team in exhibition or regular season? 

Rare but not impossible. Three this season meet those criteria:

http://www.d3hoops.com/news.php?date=2006-11-05
http://www.d3hoops.com/notables.php?item=780
http://www.d3hoops.com/news.php?date=2006-12-30

[Greek Tragedy]

I think we're mixing apples and oranges here.  One, we are talking about scheduling Winona State or a WIAC team and then we're also talking about scheduling strong, or now, strong enough (uh?) opponents.  But, you also talk about RPI, but last time I checked, the Badgers could schedule Winona State or a WIAC team for an exibition and the RPI would be effected the same...as in NOT effected at all...it's an exibition, right?

Anyway, we're on the same page...on to another argument, I mean, conversation! lol

[Mr. Downtown]

I think the WIAC should consider moving to D-II.

Anyone else in this boat? Maybe we'll be able to settle this WIAC vs Winona debate on the court, instead in a message board.

[BoBo]

I hope you are a good swimmer, Mr. Downtown, because that's one boat I wouldn't ask for permission to go aboard.  I think you and any followers will be sinking from the many leaks in the hull. Changing the WIAC NCAA classification, besides being a total waste of time and money, wouldn't settle anything - fans will still be fans.

Besides, this can of worms has been opened before, maybe not here but I know on PP's.  The WIAC can raise the issue if it makes them happy, however, I believe that they do not have the authority to make a decision regarding this question. If I remember correctly the conclusions reached earlier, it would take legislative action to make a change of this magnitude because of the State Law approved to merge the old Wisconsin State Universities with the University of Wisconsin and established the UW System in 1971. Look for the Board of Regents having to approve a change first before it would go before the legislature for consideration. With funding concerns as a central issue, you can expect referendums, talk of tax increases, etc. on the agenda.  You can see where this is headed and many people don't what to go down that road.  I'm sure there will be more stumbling blocks along the way, too - you know, anytime the government is involved. I'm sure the NCAA will have to publicly air it's $.02 worth, as well.  I have a strong feeling that the majority of the tax-paying public in Wisconsin (btw, I'm not but I have family who are) have many more pressing state-wide issues to be concerned about than this one.  In my opinion, your motion, Mr. Downtown, would be SBA - Sunk Before Arrival.

BTW, why all the fuss about that minnesota school anyway?  Don't they have a D2 message board somewhere to express to those who care how great they are & how much everyone else should fear them?

[badgerwarhawk]

It's been discussed here ad naseum.   

[Mr. Downtown]

I then address the board what we do about the fact that many conferences surrounding the WIAC refused many times to play non-conference games?

Why do the public schools of the WIAC have to pay more in travel expenses to cover lots of ground to just fulfill the schedule requirements?

I'm starting to believe, that the WIAC is a big fish in a small pond. (By the way, how do you address UW-Green Bay, UW-Milwaukee, and UW-Parkside? Perhaps should schools in the WIAC believe that they can make the move to D-II be allowed so?)

[Ralph Turner]

Mr Downtown,

Welcome to the message boards...

badgerwarhawk is right about the amount of effort that has been expended on the "Why isn't the WIAC in D-II" question.

In fact, the best thing that the majority of D-III schools might recognize when D-IV is created is that the WIAC goes to D-IV, too.   

The WIAC is a big fish in the small pond, but the WIAC has no reason to move.

Let's look at the 2006-07 Director's Cup.

The NESCAC had four teams in the Top 20 in the final standings of the Directors' Cup;  so did the WIAC.

The NESCAC had six teams in the Top 50 of the final standings of the Directors' Cup; so did the WIAC.

No other D3 conference was nearly as successful.

[Pat Coleman]

There's no guarantee the WIAC goes into the more restrictive division. That's the NCAA's guess based on the WIAC's number of sports sponsored and the WIAC's vote to eliminate its own redshirts.

I find the guess amusing.

[Ralph Turner]

There's no guarantee the WIAC goes into the more restrictive division. That's the NCAA's guess based on the WIAC's number of sports sponsored and the WIAC's vote to eliminate its own redshirts.

I find the guess amusing.

Oh well...

We can hope!   

[Greek Tragedy]

Mr Downtown,

Welcome to the message boards...

badgerwarhawk is right about the amount of effort that has been expended on the "Why isn't the WIAC in D-II" question.

In fact, the best thing that the majority of D-III schools might recognize when D-IV is created is that the WIAC goes to D-IV, too.   

The WIAC is a big fish in the small pond, but the WIAC has no reason to move.

Let's look at the 2006-07 Director's Cup.

The NESCAC had four teams in the Top 20 in the final standings of the Directors' Cup;  so did the WIAC.

The NESCAC had six teams in the Top 50 of the final standings of the Directors' Cup; so did the WIAC.

No other D3 conference was nearly as successful.

Mr. Downtown is hardly new to the message board! lol.  So, R.T., are you saying that the NESCAC should move to D2 as well? 

Last time I checked, there are D2 and D1 schools smaller than the WIAC schools, and there are other D3 public schools that may be similar in size.  It seems that one of the only reasons why the WIAC is criticized is because they are good in their sports.  If that's the case, why don't we tell Mount Union to go to D2 because of their football dominance and Middlebury to go D2 since they win every year in hockey (at least it seems like it!) BLAH.

Anyway, I don't want to RE-OPEN this can of worms, but it just annoys me. 

[John Gleich]

I, as well, don't want to open the can of worms about how some people seem to think that the WIAC should be DIII... but I do find the previous discussion about the competitive nature of the DI to DII, DI to DIII, and DII to DIII interesting.  While it's very difficult to really guage across division lines because there is such a small sample size. 

HERE is a link to a thread listing of all DIII vs. other divisions from this past season (there are previous seasons if you search farther back).  Now, if you look at the numbers, it doesn't seem to follow the point that DIII is competitive... but there are more schools in DIII than the other two divisions (336 DI schools, 284 DII schools, and 403 DIII schools).  If you look at the Massey ratings (mratings.com, and I realize that they are computer ratings and just that...) Winona state was ranked at 125, with just 124/336 DI schools ahead of them.  UWSP was the top ranked DIII school, at 343.  There are just 25 DII schools ahead of them and quite a few DI schools below (the lowest DI I found was N. Florida at 525).  Now, these are just computer rankings, and UWSP had some insane stats last year (lead the country in free-throw percentage and assist to TO ratio and fewest TO's per game), which I'm sure helped boost them a bit... and yes, the comment that the top DI is better than all the DII and top DII is better than all the DIII... but I'm not sure this has always been the case necessarily.

More later.