MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[John Gleich]

As far as the redshirting impact, I think we will see it in this upcoming Football season. Without redshirting, in Oshkosh's case, they would have been without Joe Patek and Andy Moriarty this season, and I'm pretty sure the back-up's wouldn't have done nearly as good as a job those guys did, and the Titans wouldn't have been a 7 win team (and perhaps Coach Cerroni wouldn't be at the helm for this up coming year).

This is a great example to prove my point.  Though redshirt seniors who are still around in basketball may not have made a huge impact this season (or the last few), the same can't be said for football, as shown above.  Now, next year, after the redshirt ban has been in effect for a full 5 seasons (and there can be no more redshirted players on any roster) the causality statements that were made could have credence.  But until year 5, we've still got redshirts, so any causality statements can't apply for the reasons given.

[John Gleich]

One thing to consider in evaluating why the WIAC might be down a bit - and this is something Greg Sager has pointed out about the CCIW this year - is that the league is pretty senior-thin.  Of the 19 All-WIAC selections (1st Team + Honorable Mention), only 5 were seniors.  And only 2 of the 10 1st Teamers were seniors (Beyer, Hicklin).  Consider...

% of players on All-WIAC team (1st Team & HM) who were seniors:

07-08: 26%
06-07: 50%
05-06: 37%
04-05: 56%
03-04: 47%
02-03: 56%
01-02: 41%
00-01: 55%
99-00: 52%
98-99: 56%

14 of the 19 all-conference picks return...

UW-Oshkosh (3)
D.J. Marsh, SO (6-4 F) - 1st Team
Matt Miller, JR (5-9 G) - HM
Dane Seckar-Anderson, JR (6-7 F) - HM

UW-Superior (3)
Jake Smith, FR (6-6 F) - 1st
Dwight Hill, SO (5-8 G) - HM
Shane Manor, FR (6-6 F) - HM

UW-Whitewater (3)
Matt Goodwin, JR (6-1 G) - 1st
Myles McKay, JR (6-3 G) - 1st
Kori Vernon, JR (6-6 F) - HM

UW-Platteville (2)
Jeff Skemp, JR (6-10 C) - 1st
Curt Hanson, SO (6-1 G) - 1st

UW-Stevens Point (2)
Pete Rortvedt, JR (6-5 F) - 1st
Bryan Bemish, JR (6-6 F) - 1st

UW-La Crosse (1)
Tony Mane, FR (6-1 G) - HM

UW-Eau Claire - 0
UW-Stout - 0
UW-River Falls - 0


On the 15-member All-CCIW team, 13 players return.  The WIAC and CCIW could both be very good next year.

These are great points Bob, and I think that they are much more salient for the discussion of why the league didn't perform as well this year (if that is indeed true).

[Gregory Sager]

Point 2: don't bother beating up Whitewater for its 2006 loss to IWU.  That was probably the best team ever to NOT win the national title (2 first team AAs that year, and another the next year; and unanimously ranked #1 in several polls during the season).

I'm not so sure that the individual player accolades prove that the 2005-06 Illinois Wesleyan team was "probably the best team ever to not win the national title." Heck, that IWU team didn't even win its own league. It finished in a three-way tie for second, two full games behind Augustana in the standings. That was a dynamite IWU team, but given the vast sweep of D3 history and all the teams that neither you nor I have seen over the years I think that you really overreached with that one, Chuck.

Most IWU fans (including me) don't even think that was the best IWU team to not win the national title.  The 1995-96 team that lost to Rowan was better in my opinion.

I think so, too.

[Gregory Sager]

I'd like to question a point I think I saw made in an earlier post about redshirts having to self-motivate. I don't think that's true (is it?). I thought there used to be redshirts and greyshirts--the latter possibly being unofficial-bordering-on-illegal

There's nothing "unoffical-bordering-on-illegal" about grayshirting. As PS said, you'd have to completely revamp the NCAA rulebook to get rid of grayshirts by charging a lost year of eligibility to every student who tries out for a team but gets cut -- and I can't see anyone being in favor of such a draconian (and truly unnecessary) rule.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Point 2: don't bother beating up Whitewater for its 2006 loss to IWU.  That was probably the best team ever to NOT win the national title (2 first team AAs that year, and another the next year; and unanimously ranked #1 in several polls during the season).

I'm not so sure that the individual player accolades prove that the 2005-06 Illinois Wesleyan team was "probably the best team ever to not win the national title." Heck, that IWU team didn't even win its own league. It finished in a three-way tie for second, two full games behind Augustana in the standings. That was a dynamite IWU team, but given the vast sweep of D3 history and all the teams that neither you nor I have seen over the years I think that you really overreached with that one, Chuck.

Most IWU fans (including me) don't even think that was the best IWU team to not win the national title.  The 1995-96 team that lost to Rowan was better in my opinion.  On that IWU team, former starter at D1 Illinois State Jon Litwiller was the 3rd best player (behind Bryan Crabtree and Chris Simich), and former D1 player Scott Peterson (NIU) was the 6th man.

The '96 Rowan team was the best D3 I've ever seen.

PS  That IWU team didn't win the CCIW either - they went 12-2 and Wheaton was 13-1.  Most regard that team as the best non-Sikma IWU team though.

Yeah, "probably the best ..." was a stretch.  "Possibly" or "in the discussion for .." would have been far more prudent.  I'll blame d3hoops.com for that!  As I posted elsewhere, I wasn't even aware that IWU won the walnut-and-bronze in 1997 until I got an alumni  magazine a few months later; by 2001 I was listening to the FF games.  Nearly everything from 1971 thru 2001 is a blur!

Be grateful that I am not (TOTALLY) an 'old fart' referring to Tom Gramkow and Steve Laub as the best there ever was!  Or, to fill in the 'blur', that I've given up referring to Jack Sikma or (in deference to out hosts) Terry Porter in terms of all-time great d3 players.

BTW, finishing 2 game back of Augie is why I took issue with Tom saying they played 'unconscious' in the tourney - I think they finally regained consciousness!

[Gregory Sager]

I don't see why that seven-game limit should be interpreted as being the equivalent of a ban. If the league allows you to play seven JV games, then use them! Also, men's/women's doubleheaders need not be an obstacle to playing those seven JV games. You can simply schedule those JV games as stand-alones. F'rinstance, NPU played 18 JV games this season. Six of those 18 games were stand-alones (three home, three away), played on nights in which neither North Park's varsity men's team nor the NPU women's team suited up.

Just wondering, but do NPU, Loras, IWU, BV, Central, etc. have separate JV rosters?

Yes and no. No, in the sense that schools submit their rosters in each sport to the league office (I'm fairly sure that each league in D3 does this), and this master list contains everyone on it -- junior varsity and varsity players alike. Yes, in the sense that for every game (varsity or junior varsity) the coaches have to submit the official roster for that particular game to the scorekeeper no less than ten minutes before tipoff. If you're not suiting up for the varsity game because you normally play JV only, then you're not on the official roster for that varsity game.

In terms of how schools list their JV squads, it varies. Carthage left blanks in the uniform number spaces next to the JV players who did not dress for varsity this season (Buena Vista did the same thing). NPU's done that in the past as well. Augustana and North Central list completely separate rosters for their varsity and junior varsity squads. And this season NPU put everyone on one big roster and assigned everyone a varsity uniform number, but some players (the JV players who never suited up for varsity) had only numbers of convenience listed next to their names. In JV games, they wore whatever uniforms -- and, thus, uniform numbers -- were left over from last season. (At NPU, the JV team always wears hand-me-down unis; it's a further reminder that North Park is not a D1 school with a D1 athletic budget.)

Are any of these kids "suiting up" for Varsity games?

Some do, some don't. Most schools that have JV teams exercise some flexibility in terms of player assignments. Most varsity players will spend the entire season playing varsity only, some JV players will play JV games only -- and some players will play some varsity and some JV. Each player is only allowed to be put in the scorebook 25 times per regular season, so if you want to dress a JV player for the varsity game afterwards, he'll end up using two of his 25 eligible games in one night.

If so, do they receive government funding or rely on their trusts?

I'm not really following you on this. I gather that you're asking some sort of Title IX question, but it's not really pertinent to the issue of JV.

I believe I recall, seeing a school a while back when playing (St Johns, MN) had a separate roster.  Where does Title IX come into play with the private schools?  It seems as though it doesn't.

It doesn't, because as I said the sport really only has one roster -- the roster that the head coach submits to the league prior to the season, the one that has been vetted by the school's registrar for eligibility purposes. Further splitting that full squad into varsity and JV units is something that's done within the sport's official roster. 

Our rosters are limited to 20 players.  Not 20 for varsity, and 15 for JV.

The CCIW does not impose a roster limit upon its eight teams, but it is highly unusual for a men's basketball roster to have more than 24 or 25 players, and it's usually well below that. NPU, for instance, began the season with 22 players on the full roster -- eleven dressing for varsity road games and the other eleven dressing for JV games, with a couple of the JV players also dressing for varsity home games. By the time the conference portion of the season began in early January, two players had quit, one had transferred, and another had become ineligible ... so the Vikings began CCIW play with 18 players on the roster. Another one quit in the middle of the CCIW season, so NPU finished with 17 -- twelve dressing for varsity, seven dressing for JV, and the coaches doing their customary juggling act to ensure that everyone stayed within the 25-game limit. And 17 is a fairly typical number of players for a CCIW team to have in total by season's end; anything less than 16, and you're looking at having to cancel your JV games (which, typically, at least one CCIW team will do in any given year -- this year was the first in awhile in which all eight schools fielded a JV team throughout the entire season).

UWP played a couple of JV, or what we like to call "Futures" games this year against Loras and Clarke.  These are the 7 guys that don't get any minutes other than slop up minutes at the end of games.

You can call them "futures games" or whatever you like, but guess what -- those were JV games!

It would be great if teams like UWP could have a 30 man roster, but we can't.  If I am wrong on any of this, please fill me in and correct me. 

I don't know where you've gotten the idea that there are D3 men's basketball teams that have 30 players. I highly doubt that any of the 400 or so teams in D3 have 30-man rosters. That's far too large and unwieldy a team. Some schools might have thirty guys try out, but that's another story. As I said, you really don't see more than 25 (at most) players on a CCIW team at the beginning of the season, and seldom does a team get through the entire season with that many players.

[John Gleich]

Any roster limit is a conference or school rule. There is no Division III rule regarding maximum regular-season roster size in any sport.

The key here, of course, is regular season.  There IS a roster limit for the NCAA tournament (15 in the case of men's basketball) which does need to be taken into account... I know that, though there may be as many as 20 on the roster (as allowed by the WIAC), Point never dresses any more than 15, which means that any team that Point steps out on the floor is "NCAA tournament" eligible, if you will.  Contrast this with, say, Grinnell, who, due to their style of play, routinely dresses at LEAST 20 players, with nearly all, if not absolutely all of them play.  Now, for as much has been said about why Grinnell and not having great success in the NCAA tournament, I'd look to this as a very viable reason...  they're having to cut down on the number of players they have available, and it's much more difficult for 15 players to play at that frenetic pace than it would be for 22 players.  ... this is one argument as to a possible reason that they've had success against programs who aren't prepared for it, too (though if somebody doesn't know by NOW what they're getting into by playing GC, then they're not trying very hard...).

[UWP SID]

"Each player is only allowed to be put in the scorebook 25 times per regular season, so if you want to dress a JV player for the varsity game afterwards, he'll end up using two of his 25 eligible games in one night."

Actually, players can be entered in the scorebook for as many games as the coach wants. They can only participate in 25 total games, and those can be any combination of varsity or JV games (or as Coach Ryan called them, "futures" games.) Only seeing court time counts as participation.

[John Gleich]

3.) I think JV would be beneficial, for both younger players and coaches. In those games, perhaps try something different, and see how it works in a live game setting. Helps players and coaches. Even if it is for 7 games.

I totally agree.  I think that the coaches need to get in the mindset, though, that these games are feisible and that they WOULD be beneficial.

I hadn't brought this point up yet, but in my thoughts about redshirting over the past few days, I thought about the players who redshirted and who actually stayed the whole 5 years.  That number is actually relatively small compared to players who did used up that first year of eligibility.  It's tough to battle through for year after year after year and not see any playing time.  By the time they GET to be upper classmen, many have been burned out.  It will be interesting to see if the players who DON'T redshirt continue the trend of customers who play 4 years would be increased, as they wouldn't be able to redshirt.  Now, redshirting allowed more players to be on the team, and there was more of a weed-out factor... but those players never had an impact, so it doesn't really matter too much for the discussion.

[Greek Tragedy]

In the past, the redshirt was used to build up an athlete before putting him on the floor, and possibly to keep from overstacking an already loaded team. Didn't Pete Rortvedt redshirt his true freshman year? I remember seeing him at games--sitting in the stands with his dad. Maybe he participated in greyshirting and didn't have any official connection with the team.

A couple of things here.  In my estimation, greyshirting didn't become an issue until redshirting was banned.  In the past, there was no reason to greyshirt if redshirting was legal.  If there was a choice, it'd be redshirting because those players can practice and do team functions without losing the year of eligibility.

The sentence regarding, "keep from overstocking an already loaded team" is funny to me because I don't think that would ever happen.  If a guy comes in and is good enough to improve an already loaded team, you aren't going to redshirt him because "it'd be a waste".  You're gonna play him.  It's not like we'd redshirt Jason Kalsow because our team is already awesome! lol...

Also, in regards to JV teams.  It sounds like (and I know I've asked this before but forgot the answer) that playing on a JV team would be considered using a year of eligibility...thus it would defeat the purpose of playing JV when players from cheaper public schools can just "greyshirt".  Playing JV gives you the advantage of having "game time" experience, but you end up using a year.  If a player knows he's out in four years and isn't good enough to play varsity, sure, suit him up for JV.

Some players don't use up all 5 years at one school, as you mention, PS.  But, some also transfer.  I think Kevan Bradley transfered from Point to Lawrence and, in total, ended up being 5 years.

[chmarx]

I know La Crosse had a freshman team twenty years or so ago.

I would assume that expense was part of why we no longer have them in the WIAC.

[janesvilleflash]

So, if I have 5 really good guards (upper class men), and 3 really good recruits (guards ), tell me redshirting wouldn't help.

[buf]

Some posters over on the MIAC board are saying that Nate Robertson from UWRF may transfer to Bethel next season

[John Gleich]

Some players don't use up all 5 years at one school, as you mention, PS.  But, some also transfer.  I think Kevan Bradley transfered from Point to Lawrence and, in total, ended up being 5 years.

The number of players who redshirted and transferred during my 4 years was exactly two.  The number of players that redshirted and quit... well, I'll have to think about that one.  It is a much, much larger number.  Transferring schools (usually) has a TON more involved than athletics.  When I transferred, it had more to do with academics than athletics, to be honest.  You don't get a degree in basketball, however much we'd like that to be the case.

[janesvilleflash]

+k to that PS