All Americans

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I am not sure how Matthew Schner was left off the list but I guess there were good reasons.

Still...

15.5 points per game (18 points per game in conference), 7.4 rebounds per game, 3 assists per game on a team that had four players averaging in double figures and nearly had five.  On a team that averaged 86 points and 40 rebounds per game.

In addition...
37 steals, 19 blocks
53 percent / 47 percent / 82 percent
UAA co-championship

Well for starters, he would have been at least the seventh selection from the Central for 25 slots ... and there is a lot of good talent around the country.

But I suggest the following for anyone who suggests someone who should have been replaced: they must name the person they would replace them for ... and why.

I am fine with hearing thoughts. We aren't going to pretend we are perfect, but we agonize over this stuff and we have to decide who is left off and who is included. So, the least all you can do is include who you were remove from a team for your selection ... so you can feel the agony we feel.  (I am being light-hearted, just to be clear, but I do think the practice should be adopted.)

[Titan Q]

Well for starters, he would have been at least the seventh selection from the Central for 25 slots ... and there is a lot of good talent around the country.

Emory is not in the Central region.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Well for starters, he would have been at least the seventh selection from the Central for 25 slots ... and there is a lot of good talent around the country.

Emory is not in the Central region.

Yeah ... I walked away and went to change for the night (I stay up really late, sadly) and chat with my wife going to bed ... and it dawned on me we were talking about Emory. I just sat down to adjust ... and you had noted that.

:shrug: Brain is off apparently.

But thanks for just point that out ... you know the other part is accurate. Who would we remove for him.

[SpringSt7]

Picking these awards are so damn hard---so many players in so many leagues around the country who put up eye-popping stats that are impossible to compare to folks like Matthew Schner (just the most recent example) whose numbers are more modest but on much better teams.

I would be curious to hear an explanation for both Fravert and Flynn on the 2nd-Team--I know it's hard to differentiate year-to-year, so you can't pretend that they weren't both huge pieces on a team that won the National Championship a year ago, and I also know that Oshkosh did win the WIAC this year, which is no small feat, but I would be hard pressed to believe that a team that went 20-9 and lost in the Round of 32 has 2 of the 10 best basketball players in the country.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Picking these awards are so damn hard---so many players in so many leagues around the country who put up eye-popping stats that are impossible to compare to folks like Matthew Schner (just the most recent example) whose numbers are more modest but on much better teams.

I would be curious to hear an explanation for both Fravert and Flynn on the 2nd-Team--I know it's hard to differentiate year-to-year, so you can't pretend that they weren't both huge pieces on a team that won the National Championship a year ago, and I also know that Oshkosh did win the WIAC this year, which is no small feat, but I would be hard pressed to believe that a team that went 20-9 and lost in the Round of 32 has 2 of the 10 best basketball players in the country.

Start with the fact they are forwards ... don't compare them with guards. We put actual "teams" together ... not five guards because it is easy. Fravert was co-WIAC POY and when you look at the impact the two had, especially after a 5-5 start to the season (meaning they were 15-4 to close; pretty comparable with most of the best teams in the country while playing in one of the more difficult conferences in the division) ... it was hard not to put them amongst the best forwards in the country.

[Smitty Oom]

I agree with SpringSt. Flynn was 16 and 6. Like how about Danyon Hempy from Wooster, a team that was quite comparable to Oshkosh, THIS YEAR. I understand he's a great player but I'm picking nits cause what else do we have to do? I think second team is quite high for Flynn. Personally, I think the arguments for Flynn is more subjective based.


Also.... I love the MIAC, but KENT HANSON? How in the world did he make All-American list? Don't get me wrong I love his game and is a wonderful scorer, but Carleton was not good this year and definitely can think of a list of players more deserving. Specifically Jubie Alade, the undoubtedly best player on SJU who is a top 5 team in the nation this year. A co-POY in the Miac with Booker Coplin and he gets left off for a player in the same conf.

Obviously a lot of great players left off due to the nature of the beast when making teams, and you can't satisfy everyone, but Those are my two thoughts after seeing the teams. I will listen back to the pod tomorrow at some point to hear the discussion and reasoning. Excited to listen!

[SpringSt7]

I can appreciate that answer as well as the fact that you try to put together actual teams. I wasn't comparing them to guards, Schner was just the name mentioned in a prior comment so I ran with him. I would also have to mention the fact that Yeshiva considers Ryan Turrell a point guard even though he is listed at forward on this First-Team. I would swap him and Fravert and then swap Flynn with Nate Shafer on the 4th team, despite the fact that Flynn as directly compared to Shafer is a better basketball player, I would just have to factor in the team success a little more heavily. Luke Rogers would also have to be in that conversation as well, Tufts did win the NESCAC.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I agree with SpringSt. Flynn was 16 and 6. Like how about Danyon Hempy from Wooster, a team that was quite comparable to Oshkosh, THIS YEAR. I understand he's a great player but I'm picking nits cause what else do we have to do?

Hempy is a guard ... not comparable. And Flynn wasn't chosen because of last year ... I assure you.

And you don't have to pick nits at all, right? HAHA I get you are bored, but ...

Also.... I love the MIAC, but KENT HANSON? How in the world did he make All-American list? Don't get me wrong I love his game and is a wonderful scorer, but Carleton was not good this year and definitely can think of a list of players more deserving. Specifically Jubie Alade, the undoubtedly best player on SJU who is a top 5 team in the nation this year. A co-POY in the Miac with Booker Coplin and he gets left off for a player in the same conf.

Again .. guard v forward comparison with Hanson and Alade .. both of whom were also first-team All-Region. There are a LOT more guards to consider which makes their category harder. But we can't compare guards and forwards when we are putting actual teams on the floor.

[Smitty Oom]

Connor Rairdon, Ryan Turrell and Jake Ross are all more of a point forward, and their position flexibility shows their invaluable basketball skills, but at the same time makes it hard when trying to classify them as a specific position for awards. Ben Simmons/LBJ/etc have the same problem in the NBA.

Alade is a wing player, as is Hanson. No reason they both shouldn’t be listed/eligible for the same position.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I can appreciate that answer as well as the fact that you try to put together actual teams. I wasn't comparing them to guards, Schner was just the name mentioned in a prior comment so I ran with him. I would also have to mention the fact that Yeshiva considers Ryan Turrell a point guard even though he is listed at forward on this First-Team. I would swap him and Fravert and then swap Flynn with Nate Shafer on the 4th team, despite the fact that Flynn as directly compared to Shafer is a better basketball player, I would just have to factor in the team success a little more heavily. Luke Rogers would also have to be in that conversation as well, Tufts did win the NESCAC.

Lebron James is a point-forward, right? But we go with how they are given to us as positions. Turell is listed as a guard. Though, in this day in age, a forward running an offense like a point guard isn't all that unquie. There are a lot more of them now. Turell is perfect where is his and if we did compare him to Fravert, I think I would still have Turell ahead. Especially considering he can run the offense, shoot from outside, and tear it up inside. Having seen both players a lot ... I have always left being more wowed and impressed with Turell. (I have no idea if Fravert has DI offers, but Turell had a number of them he turned down to play at Yeshiva. He is a very good talent.)

And team's success if factored... again, UWO went from 5-5 to WIAC champions ... you don't think that isn't factored over just looking at a raw 20-9 number? It works both ways. We look at 20-9 and then understand it better. Just as I look at a team that is 20-9 and realize they weren't strong all season. UWO figured things out after a lot of changes from the first ten games and was one of the two best teams in the WIAC. We are considering that ...

And Luke Rogers was on our All-America teams.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Connor Rairdon, Ryan Turrell and Jake Ross are all more of a point forward, and their position flexibility shows their invaluable basketball skills, but at the same time makes it hard when trying to classify them as a specific position for awards. Ben Simmons/LBJ/etc have the same problem in the NBA.

Alade is a wing player, as is Hanson. No reason they both shouldn't be listed/eligible for the same position.

We can talk about how they are listed, but that is really up to coaches. I personally hate the "wing" because it doesn't help the conversation any. I know players listed as wings who never see the paint and those who never see the arc. It is turning into a position coaches use to keep people from understanding where they really play when the team is being scouted. Anything to try and gain some "advantage" real or perceived.

[Smitty Oom]

I agree with SpringSt. Flynn was 16 and 6. Like how about Danyon Hempy from Wooster, a team that was quite comparable to Oshkosh, THIS YEAR. I understand he’s a great player but I’m picking nits cause what else do we have to do?

Hempy is a guard ... not comparable. And Flynn wasn't chosen because of last year ... I assure you.

And you don't have to pick nits at all, right? HAHA I get you are bored ...

I pick nits because I care! I love awards and think about them probably too much, so at this point I am looking for some discourse and reasoning behind them. I get the position and make a team angle, but players are becoming less and less position rigid these days. To leave off a player entirely like Jubie and add Kent Hanson due to position, when they play the same position in all reality, is a disservice in my eyes.

But at the same time, you guys need to be as objective as possible throughout the process and I’m sure you use positions designated by the teams. You can’t watch all the games so there needs to be some process laid out. So yes, trying to use G and F for the teams makes a wing designation tough to decipher, but that’s where most of the guys play. I understand how this could make her choices.

[WUPHF]

Well for starters, he would have been at least the seventh selection from the Central for 25 slots ... and there is a lot of good talent around the country.

But I suggest the following for anyone who suggests someone who should have been replaced: they must name the person they would replace them for ... and why.

I do not feel the need to offer a name because all I did was suggest that I did not know why he did not make the field.

I am curious though, theoretically, how would he have been the seventh selection in the Central Region.  Just based on points?

So, who would I take him over?  I watched more WIAC games than I should have and I'll go with Carter Voelker to start.

[SpringSt7]

I can appreciate that answer as well as the fact that you try to put together actual teams. I wasn't comparing them to guards, Schner was just the name mentioned in a prior comment so I ran with him. I would also have to mention the fact that Yeshiva considers Ryan Turrell a point guard even though he is listed at forward on this First-Team. I would swap him and Fravert and then swap Flynn with Nate Shafer on the 4th team, despite the fact that Flynn as directly compared to Shafer is a better basketball player, I would just have to factor in the team success a little more heavily. Luke Rogers would also have to be in that conversation as well, Tufts did win the NESCAC.

Lebron James is a point-forward, right? But we go with how they are given to us as positions. Turell is listed as a guard. Though, in this day in age, a forward running an offense like a point guard isn't all that unquie. There are a lot more of them now. Turell is perfect where is his and if we did compare him to Fravert, I think I would still have Turell ahead. Especially considering he can run the offense, shoot from outside, and tear it up inside. Having seen both players a lot ... I have always left being more wowed and impressed with Turell. (I have no idea if Fravert has DI offers, but Turell had a number of them he turned down to play at Yeshiva. He is a very good talent.)

And team's success if factored... again, UWO went from 5-5 to WIAC champions ... you don't think that isn't factored over just looking at a raw 20-9 number? It works both ways. We look at 20-9 and then understand it better. Just as I look at a team that is 20-9 and realize they weren't strong all season. UWO figured things out after a lot of changes from the first ten games and was one of the two best teams in the WIAC. We are considering that ...

And Luke Rogers was on our All-America teams.

I have no problem with Jack Flynn being named an All-American in addition to Adam Fravert. My issue is with Flynn being on the second team. There are so many good players and so many good teams and Oshkosh did not have a season of team success worthy of two Second-Team selections.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Well for starters, he would have been at least the seventh selection from the Central for 25 slots ... and there is a lot of good talent around the country.

But I suggest the following for anyone who suggests someone who should have been replaced: they must name the person they would replace them for ... and why.

I do not feel the need to offer a name because all I did was suggest that I did not know why he did not make the field.

I am curious though, theoretically, how would he have been the seventh selection in the Central Region.  Just based on points?

So, who would I take him over?  I watched more WIAC games than I should have and I'll go with Carter Voelker to start.

But if you want to say "so and so should be on the team," don't we have to remove someone from the list to make that happen? It isn't a fair practice to just throw names out (all of whom have been considered) without also going through the practice of figuring out who you would remove to make that suggestion happen. That is how it works. It can't work any other way (unless you are some who name one player from each region to each team or others who name 40 to their honorable mentions just to cover the bases).

As I stated above, I messed up with the Central Region reference. I got my names backwards in my head (based on your screen name) and when I came to correct it, TitanQ had already pointed it out ... so too late to edit it accordingly. My brain is done and I swapped names and schools. My point was to say that six Central Region players had already made the list and that were a lot of other good talent around the country ... I'm not sure more than 1/4 of the team from one region was going to happen ... though, I didn't realize there were six from the Central Region until I announced them tonight. But again, moot considering Schner is from Emory and that meant South Region.

Voelker was co-WIAC Player of the Year (with Fravert) I'm not sure how we remove Voelker from the picks just based on that detail.