All Americans

[Pat Coleman]

Yale goes 9-deep on the roster with double-digit minutes!  Yale plays lots of players.  Three starters averaged only 29.0-30.3 minutes this season, and then there was a huge drop-off to 21.7 and 20.0 minutes.

The Yale center in the MIT game only played 12 minutes, so Yale may have gone with a smaller line-up.

As an outsider to the CCIW wars, I saw Raymond on WETN several times.

Candidly, I was put-off by his whining and working the refs!  That is just me.  I don't like players who work the ref.  Not on my team, not in the game in general.

Maybe Raymond's on-court antics are the "400-lb gorilla in the room" in the minds of many voters.

Maybe they thought that Bartolotta was a classier player.

I'll accept your use of the word "maybe" as evidence that you'd have to watch a few more games in person before attempting to make that assertion.

I can say with certainty that on-court demeanor was not a factor. Nor was off-court demeanor, to be honest.

[Ralph Turner]

Yale goes 9-deep on the roster with double-digit minutes!  Yale plays lots of players.  Three starters averaged only 29.0-30.3 minutes this season, and then there was a huge drop-off to 21.7 and 20.0 minutes.

The Yale center in the MIT game only played 12 minutes, so Yale may have gone with a smaller line-up.

As an outsider to the CCIW wars, I saw Raymond on WETN several times.

Candidly, I was put-off by his whining and working the refs!  That is just me.  I don't like players who work the ref.  Not on my team, not in the game in general.

Maybe Raymond's on-court antics are the "400-lb gorilla in the room" in the minds of many voters.

Maybe they thought that Bartolotta was a classier player.

I'll accept your use of the word "maybe" as evidence that you'd have to watch a few more games in person before attempting to make that assertion.

I can say with certainty that on-court demeanor was not a factor. Nor was off-court demeanor, to be honest.

Thanks. 

[sac]

Yeah, its hard to believe there could ever be a player from outside the CCIW that might be good. 

I'll accept your use of the word "maybe" as evidence that you'd have to watch a few more games in person before attempting to make that assertion.

Here's a thought, take you're own advice and "maybe" Bartolotta had a little bit better season this year.

[CCIWchamps]

Yeah, its hard to believe there could ever be a player from outside the CCIW that might be good. 

I'll accept your use of the word "maybe" as evidence that you'd have to watch a few more games in person before attempting to make that assertion.

Here's a thought, take you're own advice and "maybe" Bartolotta had a little bit better season this year.

I stated up front that all I'm going off of is stats.  I also accept links to any online MIT game tapes or Bartolotta highlight clips.  I assume someone at MIT knows how to run a DVCam? 
And please don't think I'm arguing a case just because Raymond was the best player in the perenially best conference.  He's a very special talent who changes games.  That Bartolotta's stats are equal to Raymond's (or above them without adjusting) is overcome by the difference of opposition.  A few rebounds and a steal don't overcome the difference between the 177th hardest schedule and the 7th hardest.  It doesn't take a pro-CCIW fan to see that. 

Maybe if JB put up 32 a game or averaged a double double I would concede.  But 27 and 6 in NEWMAC is a lot different than facing Elmhurst, Wash U or UWP.  Even Mr. Neutral Coleman should know that.  I guess Raymond's only shortcoming is playing in too good of a conference?

[Mugsy]

I stated up front that all I'm going off of is stats.  I also accept links to any online MIT game tapes or Bartolotta highlight clips.  I assume someone at MIT knows how to run a DVCam? 

CCIWchamps, as a fellow Wheaton alum your arrogance is nauseating. 

I understand your desire to standup for Raymond.  He was an outstanding basketball player and worthy of POY consideration.  However... no matter how hard you argue, nothing will change.  Instead of fanning the flame and insulting anyone who disagrees with you, why don't you appreciate the 4 years Kent Raymond and the Wheaton team have given us.

If you haven't seen much of Bartolotta in person how can you possibly have enough context to say he is not as worthy as Raymond.  Stats?  Stats aren't everything and conjecture is lame.  Those who have a greater context and understanding of all D3 have decided Bartolotta is the POY.  I would have loved to have seen Raymond win this honor, just as I would have loved to see Wheaton get to Salem (particularly with how WashU went on to win it all).  But in either case, it didn't happen.

Time to move on and stop reflecting poorly on the institution you are affiliated with.

[sac]

And please don't think I'm arguing a case just because Raymond was the best player in the perenially best conference. 

You've used the CCIW is better than the NEWMAC angle at least twice.

..........and the above statement is pretty much false.  One of the best, yes, but perenially the best conference in D3......No.  The UAA and WIAC have pretty strong arguments, it probably rotates between those three.

[CCIWchamps]

And please don't think I'm arguing a case just because Raymond was the best player in the perenially best conference. 

You've used the CCIW is better than the NEWMAC angle at least twice.

..........and the above statement is pretty much false.  One of the best, yes, but perenially the best conference in D3......No.  The UAA and WIAC have pretty strong arguments, it probably rotates between those three.

You are correct.  I intended to type "one of" when typing that statement.  I agree with your correction.

As for HOW I'm arguing, it's that CCIW is better than NEWMAC.  Yes.
WHY I'm arguing is not just because Kent is the best option from the conference I'm a fan of.  I'm not on here soap boxing (after the fact) for the CCIW candidate.  You had posted "Yeah, its hard to believe there could ever be a player from outside the CCIW that might be good."  I know there are players outside of the CCIW that are good.  I just have a hard time believing there are better players than Kent Raymond.  Which is WHY I am arguing.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

You all sound like you have to choose one as "best" and send the other one to slave away in the salt mines.

D3 basketball was blessed to have two incredibly talented guards this year.

I think Bartolotta did more with less - that is, he didn't have the same caliber of team around him, which meant every defensive focus was on stopping him.  Granted, no school could play Wheaton without making Raymond defensive priority #1, but then there was also the big man and a couple other guards who could hit open shots.  Having a stronger and more diverse team works against Raymond there.

I did get to see both players via video this year and while I'm in awe at the shooting touch of both, it seemed like Bartolotta was the better all-around player, certainly the one with better pro prospects.  He was more nimble and a surer ball handler.  Neither one was challenged too much at this level, but it seemed like Bartolotta has a higher ceiling.

We really are talking 1 and 1a here, though.

[Gregory Sager]

Yale goes 9-deep on the roster with double-digit minutes!  Yale plays lots of players.  Three starters averaged only 29.0-30.3 minutes this season, and then there was a huge drop-off to 21.7 and 20.0 minutes.

The Yale center in the MIT game only played 12 minutes, so Yale may have gone with a smaller line-up.

As an outsider to the CCIW wars, I saw Raymond on WETN several times.

Candidly, I was put-off by his whining and working the refs!  That is just me.  I don't like players who work the ref.  Not on my team, not in the game in general.

Maybe Raymond's on-court antics are the "400-lb gorilla in the room" in the minds of many voters.

Maybe they thought that Bartolotta was a classier player.

I'll accept your use of the word "maybe" as evidence that you'd have to watch a few more games in person before attempting to make that assertion.

So might seeing the whining by Raymond in person would soften my impression of him?

I think that I would be even more put-off by him in that case. 

Although Raymond had the universal respect of every poster in CCIW Chat, his whining was a subject of conversation in the room on more than one occasion. My personal take on it was that, while I was annoyed by his persistent complaining, I also recognized the value in it in that he was a competitive player who was looking for every edge he could get -- and politicking the refs on a nightly basis was simply another example of trying to gain that edge.

Yeah, its hard to believe there could ever be a player from outside the CCIW that might be good. 

C'mon, be fair. There's a grand total of one CCIW fan who has complained about Bartolotta being selected Player of the Year over Raymond. Howzabout not tarring us all with the same brush?

And please don't think I'm arguing a case just because Raymond was the best player in the perenially best conference. 

You've used the CCIW is better than the NEWMAC angle at least twice.

..........and the above statement is pretty much false.  One of the best, yes, but perenially the best conference in D3......No.  The UAA and WIAC have pretty strong arguments, it probably rotates between those three.

I'd say that it's the WIAC almost every year. The CCIW's been the best on occasion, but it's almost always the WIAC that sets the standard in D3.

[larry_u]

And please don't think I'm arguing a case just because Raymond was the best player in the perenially best conference. 

You've used the CCIW is better than the NEWMAC angle at least twice.

..........and the above statement is pretty much false.  One of the best, yes, but perenially the best conference in D3......No.  The UAA and WIAC have pretty strong arguments, it probably rotates between those three.

You are correct.  I intended to type "one of" when typing that statement.  I agree with your correction.

As for HOW I'm arguing, it's that CCIW is better than NEWMAC.  Yes.
WHY I'm arguing is not just because Kent is the best option from the conference I'm a fan of.  I'm not on here soap boxing (after the fact) for the CCIW candidate.  You had posted "Yeah, its hard to believe there could ever be a player from outside the CCIW that might be good."  I know there are players outside of the CCIW that are good.  I just have a hard time believing there are better players than Kent Raymond.  Which is WHY I am whining and moaning .

Fixed it for you. 

Hate to tell you, but the people that made this decision know a lot more about basketball then you do, and are not as insanely obsessed with Kent raymond as you are.  As several other CCIWers and even Wheaton alums have put it..you are just embarassing yourself now....

[CCIWchamps]

I think Bartolotta did more with less - that is, he didn't have the same caliber of team around him, which meant every defensive focus was on stopping him.  Granted, no school could play Wheaton without making Raymond defensive priority #1, but then there was also the big man and a couple other guards who could hit open shots.  Having a stronger and more diverse team works against Raymond there.

I don't buy that argument. 
Billy Johnson averages 17 and 7 RB's
Hamidou Soumare averages 14 and 7 RB's

KR and JB have such similar stats that you HAVE to consider the opponents they are playing against. 
JB backers will say KR plays with better teammates, yet look at the two MIT players listed above.  That argument is out.
JB backers will say Wheaton was expected to do better than MIT, and guess what, Wheaton did.  So how that is an argument against KR I don't know.

If it comes down to merely stats, then, I feel that strength of schedule is a stat that needs to be included.  Instead, it seems that is being left out of the discussion, while everyone is free to play the "he's from MIT, he does more with less" logic.  Just finish that sentence "he does more with less, AGAINST less" and we'd all agree.

[CCIWchamps]

And please don't think I'm arguing a case just because Raymond was the best player in the perenially best conference. 

You've used the CCIW is better than the NEWMAC angle at least twice.

..........and the above statement is pretty much false.  One of the best, yes, but perenially the best conference in D3......No.  The UAA and WIAC have pretty strong arguments, it probably rotates between those three.

You are correct.  I intended to type "one of" when typing that statement.  I agree with your correction.

As for HOW I'm arguing, it's that CCIW is better than NEWMAC.  Yes.
WHY I'm arguing is not just because Kent is the best option from the conference I'm a fan of.  I'm not on here soap boxing (after the fact) for the CCIW candidate.  You had posted "Yeah, its hard to believe there could ever be a player from outside the CCIW that might be good."  I know there are players outside of the CCIW that are good.  I just have a hard time believing there are better players than Kent Raymond.  Which is WHY I am whining and moaning .

Fixed it for you. 

Hate to tell you, but the people that made this decision know a lot more about basketball then you do, and are not as insanely obsessed with Kent raymond as you are.  As several other CCIWers and even Wheaton alums have put it..you are just embarassing yourself now....

Hey wait, I don't remember typing that.  OHHHH.  I see what happened.  Clever.
Tell me why these people know basketball better than I do?  Because they are sports editors?  Because they've seen KR 2x and JB 3 on tape?  Because you know anything about me?  Here's a summary: the voting process has been reported to be based largely on stats, and with stats so similar between two players, I simply wonder why strength of schedule would not be included as a stat for processing.  Wheaton played the 7th hardest schedule, MIT the 177th hardest.  The difference between the 7th and 177th opponents certainly is larger than 2.5 rebounds and a steal. 

If you can make a conclusive argument about why my logic is wrong, please do.  Those are stats.  I am quoting them. 
If Pat Coleman wants to say that the decision was made on something other than stats, then it's a different discussion as well.  But, it sounds like the voters have only seen the players a few times each, which is why stats become so much more important. 

And lastly, I believe it was 1 CCIWer and 1 Wheaton Alum.  Which is not several, which is maybe why you are lost in my discussion that involves so many stats and quantity units.

[David Collinge]

...And lastly...

     

[nescac1]

FYI, Soumare left the team five games into the season so I am not sure why you are mentioning his stats -- Johnson and MAYBE Karraker (third leading scorer but only a frosh) are the only guys on MIT who would have gotten any burn for Wheaton this year, beyond Bartolotta of course. 

If you want to complain, complain about the Naismith award finalists in D-I -- no Stephen Curry?  Now THAT is an injustice.  Hansborough wasn't even the MVP of his own team and he is a finalist on reputation alone, while Curry put up ridiculous stats against every gimmick defense in the book (including the first triangle and two, where the two guard one guy, I have ever seen). 

[Titan Q]

So who are the candidates for preseason All-American in '09-10?  Returnees are...


Aaron Thompson (G), Jr., Wash U - 1st Team

Sean Wallis (G), Jr., Wash U - 2nd Team

Steve Djurickovic (G), So., Carthage - 3rd Team

D.J. Marsh (F), Jr., UW-Oshkosh - 3rd Team

Richard Jean-Baptiste (F), Jr., Brooklyn - 4th Team

Tyler Sanborn (C), Jr., Guilford - 4th Team



I'm not sure the CCIW has a legitimate candidate right now outside of Djurickovic (who will probably be in the discussion for national P.O.Y. next season).  There are a few CCIW guys who could develop into AA types though.