All Americans

[CCIWchamps]

I finally had time to read most of the hot topics. Maybe its just me, but I think all the "hype" about Kent Raymond has skewed the minds of those who probably have knowledge of the game. CCIWchamps knows what he is talking about, this doesnt make him right, but non the less, he has some points. I will blame those who have risen Kent Raymond status to an unreachable level for CCIWchamps arrogance and false understanding of how good that player really is. I am not saying Kent Raymond isnt a fantastic player, but maybe all the hype and comments regarding him have given people a false understanding of him. Anyone else?

Thanks.  I'm not sure your point here, though. 

[CCIWchamps]

In other words, take this post from another board in regards to the D3Hoops AA Team: ...

OK, honestly, did you quote that post here solely to mislead people or what? Right away, I debunked that understanding with a heavy dose of reality. But you didn't quote that, you quoted someone else's hearsay.

Spare me the BS. You don't like the choice, I get that. But why don't you stay true to your word and stop talking about it already?

I remember what you are talking about now.  The quote about sitting around in the hotel listening on speaker phone.
First, if you're going to delete my posts as moderator of the site, I think it's pretty weak to then follow it up by talking smack about it.  As you told the SID on the other board, why not use the personal message feature?  If you're on a BS hunt, I found some for you.

Second, if you're going to delete my posts, maybe you'd consider leaving the parts of my post that actually were not offensive to you.  The old baby with the bathwater argument.  My post was actually answering a direction question posed by SAC and I was attempting to carry on a conversation.

Third, the quote was supposed to show how frustrated some disappointed fans had gotten, even to the point of concocting a story about how the process must work if their player didn't get chosen.  And how I can empathize with the feeling, yet am able to trust that it doesn't happen like they said.  My point: if the voters didn't seem them play, then the idea of them sitting around in a hotel room and choosing based solely on stats is not that far-fetched.  Which is why I hope they saw them.

I hope this clears things up.  It's the best I can do from memory without seeing my original wording.

[Pat Coleman]

First, if you're going to delete my posts as moderator of the site, I think it's pretty weak to then follow it up by talking smack about it. 

No offense, but I will delete posts that mislead people about how we operate, and I will do it every time. I should've deleted the original post, apparently, but I was fairly certain people were smart enough to read the follow-up. Guess I was wrong.

I quoted the post I was talking about with enough context for you to understand.

[CCIWchamps]

I think the fact that he swept all of the major awards (I dont think even Ruths did that last year), should quench some of those arguing (if that many people who have actually seen them play are choosing Bartolotta consistently, there has to be some merit to their choice).

Fair point, and I hope the voters did actually see him.

At the risk of resurrecting this skeleton.........why is it you demand the voters see both players in person but not yourself?

Easy amigo.  I conceded the point to begin with, didn't I? 
I was more reflecting on what USee posted on the other board about the limited visibility of all D3 players to the entire country.  As Pat himself said, he'd seen Raymond 2x and a "few tapes" of Bartolotta.  And he's the head of the site.  I imagine many more of the voters lean on stats over first hand knowledge, so when hugenerd here says "when people who have actually seen them play..." I'm expressing that I truly hope that is the case. 

I know I don't have 10 years of writing on the boards here, but I promise I'm not an idiot.  You'll probably give me a -k for this post, except you already gave me one today, didn't you?

No I did not and no I won't  , and no one called you an idiot........and you didn't really answer the question.

To respond to your question again- my first reply has since been removed from the page- 1) I'd like the voters to see all of the players, since I am unable to do so.  If looking at stats alone is a qualification, then why can't I vote?  2) I don't suggest seeing everyone "in person."  I suggest they just see them so they have something else to go off of to sway their opinion.  3) If stats alone are used, for this year in particular, I feel like the wrong decision was made as I've attempted to show through my own use of stats.  Seeing as the votes came out the way they did, I'll trust each voter saw the players and are able to better judge as a result, which is also better than I could.  More informed is always better.  It's not like I'm requesting they be a retired player of the sport!  

[CCIWchamps]

First, if you're going to delete my posts as moderator of the site, I think it's pretty weak to then follow it up by talking smack about it. 

No offense, but I will delete posts that mislead people about how we operate, and I will do it every time. I should've deleted the original post, apparently, but I was fairly certain people were smart enough to read the follow-up. Guess I was wrong.

I quoted the post I was talking about with enough context for you to understand.

Oh I understood the original post and how you debunked it with the follow up.  But that someone was frustrated enough to concoct a story out of frustration still happened.  It's a true conveyance of the feeling taken to the extreme.

[Pat Coleman]

And yet you posted it here as if it were fact, without the follow-up.

I don't take kindly to my position being distorted.

[CCIWchamps]

And yet you posted it here as if it were fact, without the follow-up.

I don't take kindly to my position being distorted.

His assertion was comical enough that it debunked itself, even before your follow-up.
My quote of it showed how far an argument COULD be taken, and how, in comparison, me saying "I hope they see them play" is quite reasonable. 
It in no way endorses his statement, or attempts to show it as fact. 

[Ethelred the Unready]

And yet you posted it here as if it were fact, without the follow-up.

I don't take kindly to my position being distorted.

His assertion was comical enough that it debunked itself, even before your follow-up.
My quote of it showed how far an argument COULD be taken, and how, in comparison, me saying "I hope they see them play" is quite reasonable. 
It in no way endorses his statement, or attempts to show it as fact. 

Horse.....dead.....beat.....stop.....please.....

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

CCIW - I have been reading every single post you have had... and it is seriously time to just stop.

I don't want to speak for Pat, but it isn't like he takes the decision lightly or just throws a dart at the wall and which ever it hits closest to is the guy who wins it. He makes sure to make an educated decision and goes out of his way to get as much information about players as he can. He did see several games of Wheaton's and made the effort to see video on Bartolotta so he could make a decision that wasn't based stricktly on stats.

By the way, your counter-point on stats is based on just a couple you wanted to focus on vs. the entire stat line everyone else has used to compare. The simple fact you are twisting the evidence so you can seem to have the better arguement doesn't stand water when it comes to the POY. Heck, the fact you choose to ignore or discount the other stats and facts means you have to find some way to make Raymond better - he can't stand on his own.

I understand you disagree with the decision - I got that on the first post... I still understood it after the 10th post... I am starting to get sick of hearing the point at post #20. When you have to pick just one player, many others and their fans are going to be disappointed. However, I haven't seen any other player/team/fan from any other 1st-team AA complain - at least to the level you have taken this.

Please move on. Celebrate the career Kent Raymond had. Congratulate (if you want) Jimmy Bartolotta for a fine career as well. And start thinking about 2009-2010.

[CCIWchamps]

CCIW - I have been reading every single post you have had... and it is seriously time to just stop.

I don't want to speak for Pat, but it isn't like he takes the decision lightly or just throws a dart at the wall and which ever it hits closest to is the guy who wins it. He makes sure to make an educated decision and goes out of his way to get as much information about players as he can. He did see several games of Wheaton's and made the effort to see video on Bartolotta so he could make a decision that wasn't based stricktly on stats.

By the way, your counter-point on stats is based on just a couple you wanted to focus on vs. the entire stat line everyone else has used to compare. The simple fact you are twisting the evidence so you can seem to have the better arguement doesn't stand water when it comes to the POY. Heck, the fact you choose to ignore or discount the other stats and facts means you have to find some way to make Raymond better - he can't stand on his own.

I understand you disagree with the decision - I got that on the first post... I still understood it after the 10th post... I am starting to get sick of hearing the point at post #20. When you have to pick just one player, many others and their fans are going to be disappointed. However, I haven't seen any other player/team/fan from any other 1st-team AA complain - at least to the level you have taken this.

Please move on. Celebrate the career Kent Raymond had. Congratulate (if you want) Jimmy Bartolotta for a fine career as well. And start thinking about 2009-2010.

Here's my response, and only because you addressed me:
1) I think we agree that he's done  more than just throw darts at a wall.  In fact what I was just explaining to Pat is exactly that: I am distancing myself from those who believe it is a blind draw on Pat's part. 
2) While I appreciate you coming to your boss or co-worker's defense, the same thing you said about me choosing specific stats while ignoring others is just as applicable in the opposite direction.  To be fair you should consider that point and then understand why I chose the ones I did.  To offset those being selected first while leaving out others.  I find your argument less damning of me than to the one I was responding.
3) I do congratulate JB, and you may have noticed this happened early on in the posts I've made. 
4) Long ago this became much less about the POY iscussion and more about me defending myself and my arguments.  I have stuck to the same concepts the whole time and have not disparaged Mr. Coleman.  Many have disagreed and many have agreed.  And many more have weighed in.  As you'll note, Pat and I have exchanged posts, so it is not just me engaging in the discussion.  I appreciate your 2 cents but think you need take a look at the bigger picture.  Pat's a big boy and can handle things on his own.  I only respond to those who engage, much like I've just done to your post.  Ironic that you tell me to drop it and then start a new discussion about the very same topic.  I guess that's how message boards work.

[sac]

In a related story the makers of Elmers glue reported record profits today sighting lower raw material costs.   Quoting CEO  John Windfall, "We don't know what happened, all of the sudden in March the cost of horse carcuses dropped like a rock.  It was something we didn't plan for."  When asked if he saw prices continueing to stay low he said "I'd like to think the market will stabilize and we'll get back to a normal operating environment, but I just can't predict whats going on in the Midwest, someone's killing a lot of horses, for now I guess we benefit."



This is actually a fascinating read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_meat

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

sac - I haven't read your link, yet. I immediately got worried when the link reads "horse_meat"!

[sac]

sac - I haven't read your link, yet. I immediately got worried when the link reads "horse_meat"!

I won't lie, its about horse meat, filled with fascinating facts and history.

[Ethelred the Unready]

In a related story the makers of Elmers glue reported record profits today sighting lower raw material costs.   Quoting CEO  John Windfall, "We don't know what happened, all of the sudden in March the cost of horse carcuses dropped like a rock.  It was something we didn't plan for."  When asked if he saw prices continueing to stay low he said "I'd like to think the market will stabilize and we'll get back to a normal operating environment, but I just can't predict whats going on in the Midwest, someone's killing a lot of horses, for now I guess we benefit."



This is actually a fascinating read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_meat

And......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_a_dead_horse

I remember taking the kids to Mystic Seaport years ago and hearing a story about "beating a dead horse" and how it related to sailing ships of the 17th/18th century.   I have forgotten the details but I remember it had something to do with sea shanty's or some type of song.  Anyone have any details?

[Gregory Sager]

I finally had time to read most of the hot topics. Maybe its just me, but I think all the "hype" about Kent Raymond has skewed the minds of those who probably have knowledge of the game. CCIWchamps knows what he is talking about, this doesnt make him right, but non the less, he has some points. I will blame those who have risen Kent Raymond status to an unreachable level for CCIWchamps arrogance and false understanding of how good that player really is. I am not saying Kent Raymond isnt a fantastic player, but maybe all the hype and comments regarding him have given people a false understanding of him. Anyone else?

No.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have no "false understanding" of Kent Raymond, Scrub023. Hype has not "skewed my mind" regarding him.

Let me put this into perspective for you. I have followed D3 men's basketball for three decades. I see anywhere from twenty to fifty D3 men's basketball games in person per season. I've seen literally thousands of D3 basketball players, including a large percentage of the d3hoops.com All-Americans of the past decade.

Of all of those thousands of players, I would count Kent Raymond -- whom I saw play about 25-30 times over the course of his career -- among the five best D3 players I have ever seen. And I am not exaggerating. Nor am I saying this to pump up my home conference; Raymond played for my school's archrival, and I would never glorify a Wheaton student-athlete unnecessarily just to tout the CCIW as a whole. Wheaton has plenty of people to polish its apples on this website and elsewhere, and it doesn't need me to do it for it -- even if I were so inclined.

I am not alone in my assessment. The CCIW's coaches have given out a Most Outstanding Player award for the past forty-two years, and only three players have ever won the award three times. Raymond is one of them. The other three-time MOPs, Illinois Wesleyan's Jack Sikma and North Park's Michael Harper, went on to enjoy NBA careers. In other words, Raymond is in extremely select company -- and, unlike Sikma and Harper, Raymond isn't 6'9. He's a 6'3 guard.

Nobody has hyped me into a false consciousness regarding Raymond. Nor have I hyped anyone else into a false consciousness about Raymond. He was simply that good.

I thought that he should've been d3hoops.com's POY, but I'm not going to raise a big stink about it. It's not important to me. What is important to me is the truth, Scrub023, and the truth is that Kent Raymond was every bit as good a basketball player as people who've watched him play have attested.