All Americans

[T990]

Anyone have a link for where I could see some Kent Raymond highlights or game films?  Because I just watched the Zach Freeman video, and comparing Jimmy Bartolotta to him would be like comparing LeBron James to George Mikan.  Bartolotta is a complete player.  An Ivy League coach said he would have made the All Ivy team in Division I.

[Pat Coleman]

Well, and I wouldn't compare Freeman to Raymond either, if that makes you feel any better.

[chairman]

search in youtube, There are several students who post Wheaton bball highlights. Footage ranges from really good to terrible, and it is a little hard to see how hard he has to work to get open.

[ephoops]

Greg:

Two other players to add to your list:

Mike Nogelo from Williams and Matt Hancock from Colby.

Nogelo is probably the best player to play in the New England region in the past 25 years (if not longer).  Nogelo was a three-time All American and won the Jostens award in his senior year. 

Hancock from Colby is a close 2nd.  He also was a three-time All American.  Scored almost 2,700 career points.

[Hugenerd]

This was posted a while ago but I thought I would update with more info:

Bartolotta will be playing this Friday in Detroit in the D1 Senior All-Star game (for being selected NABC POY, which was selected independently of the d3hoops POY).  Information about the game is here:

http://www.ncaamarchmadness2009.com/mens/all_star.aspx

http://www.hersheys.com/marchmadness/allstar.aspx

I havent been able to find a full roster as of yet for this year's game, but last year's MVP was Demarcus Nelson and you can find the rest of last year's roster here: http://collegebasketballnews.scout.com/2/743723.html .

[thundermike]

Raymond clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF5MMi3CuD8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtfX0ofy4YY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH72KCacLII&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w9_2oGZxGA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqgC5zm-7rk&feature=related

[Gregory Sager]

Greg:

Two other players to add to your list:

Mike Nogelo from Williams and Matt Hancock from Colby.

Nogelo is probably the best player to play in the New England region in the past 25 years (if not longer).  Nogelo was a three-time All American and won the Jostens award in his senior year. 

Hancock from Colby is a close 2nd.  He also was a three-time All American.  Scored almost 2,700 career points.

Yeah, when I thought about it some more after I'd made the post, I realized that Nogelo would definitely be on my "Wish I'd Seen Him" list as well. Hancock might be another one, too.

Wow. I had no idea that this would upset you so much.

Upset? Hardly. I was simply being forceful in an attempt to get you to respond, since you didn't respond to me at all in your previous post. I have no emotional investment in this discussion at all.

I never addressed you directly

Exactly. I addressed you personally in my response post, and your refusal after that to respond to me in your subsequent post -- instead, you addressed CCIWchamps, who had bowed out of the discussion several days previous -- is what caused me to ratchet up the volume in my last post.

and I feel like you took it personal since I meant it to be towards CCIW, not you.

I can assure you that I didn't take it personally. I was simply puzzled as to why you were addressing CCIWchamps regarding a discussion that had already dead-ended, rather than addressing me. After all, I was the one who was directly challenging your new argument. As I said, I figured that I had to turn up the volume in order to get your attention.

I never questioned your knowledge, so dont make me out to be some kind of arrogant jerk.

See, here's the thing: I wish that you had questioned my knowledge. Or, for that matter, conceded my knowledge. Or made any sort of response at all to my challenge to you. And who is making you out to be an arrogant jerk? Not me. You're reading things into my post that aren't there. We're just two guys having a dialogue about basketball players ... which is all that I wanted in the first place.

If you don't think that what I said was true, that's ok, but you can't tell me that Im "Dead Wrong" since I may think your dead wrong, its an opinion, live with it.

As I've indicated, the "dead wrong" bit was an attempt to goad you into responding to me. Mission accomplished.

I'm well aware that what we're discussing falls into the realm of opinion. I've already said twice within this thread that ranking players is a subjective process to a large degree. But here's the thing: Not every opinion is equal. Now, don't misread this as an attempt to "put you in your place" or anything like that, but some perspectives are worth more than others when it comes to judging basketball players.

We would all agree that the opinion of a coach carries more weight than that of a fan, right? But it's also true that the opinion of one fan may be worth more (or less) than that of another fan. Mind you, I'm not setting myself up to be some sort of ultimate expert. I see myself as one of those students of the game who is always learning something new about it. But I do have some background when it comes to gauging D3 talent, as I've already indicated. I've given my credentials. I'd like to see yours. How long have you been watching D3 ball? How many games do you see per season? Where do you see those games (since we know that not all D3 regions are created equal)? Has your favorite team played Wheaton during the Raymond era? Have you actually seen Raymond play?

In other words, upon what basis are you making your statements about Raymond? How much perspective do you have when it comes to judging the relative worth of D3 superstars? And how much credence should we give to your opinion?

I do believe that all the talk has made fans believe that Kent Raymond is so unbelievable he could not have possibly lost in a POY type award. The evidence was the long lost rant by one fan.

One fan constitutes definitive evidence that CCIW Land has lost its collective mind when it comes to Kent Raymond? Come on, man. CCIWchamps is a lone wolf. Other CCIW fans have chastised him for driving the Raymond vs. Bartolotta argument into the ground. Plus, several CCIW Chat posters have said that, while they think that Raymond is likely the superior player, they don't see the d3hoops.com POY award as a hill to die upon -- particularly since very few of us have seen Bartolotta play.

Your dismissal of the perspective of CCIW fans based upon one dissenting poster's rants isn't valid.

And no, I am not starting a new argument, it is true in all conferences.

Yes, it is a new argument, because it's no longer about Raymond vs. Bartolotta. It's now about the collective ability of CCIW fans to keep a sense of perspective about Raymond (and, by implication, any other CCIW superstar). The fact that you're now saying that any league's fans could be just as easily duped doesn't change the fact that it's still a new argument.

Every conference has a strong preference towards their top players, its part of being a fan, and I thought that may have happened with Raymond a little, not to the extent you made it out to be.

I think that your point is valid in theory. But it seems to me that you've taken a valid theory and transposed it onto a particular player without offering any evidence that the theory fits the player. That's why I want to see your credentials. If you have seen Raymond play, and if you have the sort of extensive D3 background that allows you to make the sweeping judgment that an entire league's worth of fans have had the wool pulled over their eyes by Raymond hype, then perhaps your theory becomes a legitimate possibility.

Meanwhile, however, you have a lot of evidence to refute:

* The universal praise of Raymond's game among CCIW fans, most of whom have seen Raymond play in person multiple times and many of whom have no motivation to tout him simply because he played for one of the league's teams. As I've said, I'm one example of a CCIW fan who is disinclined by the nature of my school's rivalry with Wheaton to tout a Wheaton player without due cause; North Central insider fan AndOne is another CCIW Chat regular who has no warm feelings for Wheaton whatsoever, but who will nevertheless readily give Raymond his props. In other words, rather than being excessively swayed by hype, there are some amongst us on CCIW Chat who are more inclined to challenge the hype -- if we didn't feel that the hype surrounding Raymond was justified, that is.

* Raymond's got a lot of coach-derived credentials in his favor. He's one of only three CCIW players in the history of the league's MOP award to win it three times -- and the other two, Jack Sikma and Michael Harper, were 6'9 players who went on to the NBA after college. He's also one of only thirteen D3 players to ever be named an NABC All-American three times, and of those thirteen only three have ever been named to the first team three times: The aforementioned Mike Nogelo of Williams (1989-91), Irv Johnson of Scranton (1978-80) ... and Kent Raymond. Are you comfortable lumping all of those coaches in with the CCIW crowd of those who've been duped by the Raymond hype?

* The folks who follow D3 from coast-to-coast more than anyone else -- Pat Coleman and his minions on this website -- have named Kent Raymond a d3hoops.com first-team All-American in two separate seasons. Only eight other players have ever received that distinction.

Remember, I still think he is the most valuable of all DIII players, so don't make it out to seem like I am anti Raymond or CCIW, cause thats how Im taking all this. I KNOW that he is a fantastic player.

And I also think he deserved to be the DIII Player of the year.

None of this seems to make any sense given everything else that you've said. So he's overpraised by CCIW folks who've bought into the hype ... and yet at the same time he's the best player in D3 and deserved to win the award rather than Bartolotta? Which is it? If he's the best player in the land, it hardly seems plausible to describe him as overrated.

Please be assured that I'm not doing this just to bust your chops, Scrub. All I wanted was to initiate a discussion. I'm genuinely glad that you're finally taking me up on it. That's what this site's message board is all about.

[usee]

Raymond clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF5MMi3CuD8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtfX0ofy4YY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH72KCacLII&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w9_2oGZxGA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqgC5zm-7rk&feature=related

I also saw a clip of Raymond scoring the final bucket before half against platteville. That's a great clip if anyone can find it again.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg, you gotta stop referring to my boy Jack Sikma as 6'9".  He was that height when recruited, but he was still a growing boy!  According to Coach Bridges, he graduated at 6'11.5" (which he rounded up to 7'0", since "7-footers get paid more"!

[Scrub023]

Does my question require credentials? I meant to ask the question to the regulars, since I am not one of them and dont have the knowledge they do.

I'd like to see yours. How long have you been watching D3 ball? How many games do you see per season? Where do you see those games (since we know that not all D3 regions are created equal)? Has your favorite team played Wheaton during the Raymond era? Have you actually seen Raymond play?

In other words, upon what basis are you making your statements about Raymond? How much perspective do you have when it comes to judging the relative worth of D3 superstars? And how much credence should we give to your opinion?

k that Raymond is likely the superior player, they don't see the d3hoops.com POY award as a hill to die upon -- particularly since very few of us have seen Bartolotta play.

Your dismissal of the perspective of CCIW fans based upon one dissenting poster's rants isn't valid.

I have been watching for around 5 years now, mostly in the MWC, and have seen my fair share of GREAT players, ( Kroeger, Braier, Hoch, Ladwig, Kyle McGillis, I think it was Sheperd from Carrol, Raymond, the whole Wash U team). Have I seen Raymond in Person? Yes! I have seen him play in person, against Lawrence, MY FAVORITE TEAM  , they WON, LU lost, and I was crushed. How many times did I watch Raymond? Not enough, around 5 times. So I do have some evidence of being somewhat knowledgeable on the subject.

I understand how I came off on the whole CCIW fan perspective, and I was wrong to judge you all. Did I?

You did get my attention, and I hope this info keeps me off the chopping block, for now  .

[CCIWchamps]

I also saw a clip of Raymond scoring the final bucket before half against platteville. That's a great clip if anyone can find it again.

It's in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVpibLR667I

Another good one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxeAN6WJGuc

[usee]

C-Champs, that's the clip. It's the last play of 4 and raymond's move to beat the halftime buzzer was ridiculous. Great clip. Thanks for finding it.

[CCIWchamps]

In a related story the makers of Elmers glue reported record profits today sighting lower raw material costs.   Quoting CEO  John Windfall, "We don't know what happened, all of the sudden in March the cost of horse carcuses dropped like a rock.  It was something we didn't plan for."  When asked if he saw prices continueing to stay low he said "I'd like to think the market will stabilize and we'll get back to a normal operating environment, but I just can't predict whats going on in the Midwest, someone's killing a lot of horses, for now I guess we benefit."

I enjoyed this- not sure how I missed it before.  Technically, it's just one horse, which can't affect supply and demand too much, eh?   
Or that we won't turn the horse over to the glue factory... perhaps we're driving UP the price of glue raw materials?   
We'll turn it around by April.

[larry_u]

Greg-

Can you give your five?

Well, let me start off by saying that there's a lot of D3 stars that I wish I had seen, but never did: Pete Metzelaars, Ron Stewart, Leroy Witherspoon, Shannon Lilly, Bill Bessoir, Dick Hempy, Greg Grant, Scott Tedder, Lamont Strothers, T.J. Van Wie, Merrill Brunson, Dave Jannuzzi, Devean George, Horace Jenkins, Andy Panko, and Jeff Gibbs being the guys who immediately come to mind. If I had seen these guys, my list might've been different. Then again, it might not have been different at all.

The greatest D3 player I ever saw was Michael Harper, hands down. After that, I'd say that there's a pool that consists of Derrick Rowland, Michael Thomas, Modzel Greer, Blaise Bugajski, Justyne Monegain, Wayne Dunning, Steve Iannarino, Dana Janssen, Michael Starks, Michael Barach, Kermit Sharp, Robert Brown, Chris Fite, Steve Honderd, Bryan Crabtree, Korey Coon, Derek Reich, Richard Melzer, and Kent Raymond. I won't rank them, but Raymond's definitely in the upper half of that crew, in fact probably in the top third of it as well. So perhaps I should've said "top ten" instead of "top five".

There's a ton of amazing players I've seen who're not on that list -- Tiny Green, Steve Keenan, Max Artis, Tony Jordan, Mark Linde, Andre McKoy, Rosey Bullock, Brendan Mitchell, Lou Stevens, Jeff Kuehl, Brad Baldridge, Ricky Spicer, Wade Gugino, Eric Elliott, Charles Woods, Kirk Anderson, Chris Simich, Aaron Winkle, Jason Wiertel, Antoine McDaniel, Jeremy Veenstra, Ryan Knuppel, Chris Jeffries, Drew Carstens, Seth Hauben, Joel Kolmodin, Travis Dupree, Jason Kalsow, Nick Bennett, Keelan Amelianovich, Adam Dauksas, Chris Martin, Larry Welton, Troy Ruths, Nate Hainje, and Steve Djurickovic among them -- whom I'd put just a slot or two below those guys. What's frightening is that Djurickovic is on that list, and he still has two years left in his career. The overall body of work that Sean Wallis has put up in the games in which I've seen him play don't warrant his inclusion on this list, but if he comes back next season and plays like he did in the Wheaton sectional he'll definitely be on here as well.

Then there's guys whom I only saw once or maybe twice -- players such as Brian Agler, Ed Jachim, Jason Qua, Dale Turnquist, Ty Evans, Duane Bosma, Joel Holstege, Tim Dworak, Bryan Nelson, Doug Espenson, and Jesse Reimink -- who didn't wow me but whom I realize are much better than the impression that they left upon me. Basketball's the kind of game where you can see a superstar once on what turns out to be a rare off-night and be left with the impression that he's not a superstar at all. That's why it's important not to take too narrow a view of a player whom you only see play once if his credentials are either much better or much worse than that single game's worth of impressions.

This is all just my deeply subjective take, of course.

No Chris Braier either.......

[Hugenerd]

Rosters were announced today for the NABC/Hershey's All-Star Game to be played at the Final Four this weekend.  In all, only 20 players were selected, that comprise two teams: The Hershey's All-Stars and The Reese's All-Stars.  Jimmy Bartolotta is on the Hershey's All-Star team, which appears to be the weaker of the two teams.  The Reese's All-Stars have Tyrese Rice from BC, Alex Ruoff from WVU, BJ Raymond from Xavier, Alfred Aboya from UCLA, Marcus Landry from Wisconsin, and Josh Heytvelt from Gonzaga and they are coached by Bruce Weber and Matt Painter.  The Hershey's team doesnt have any really big name players and they are coached by Nolan Richardson and Mike Anderson.

Full release: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nabc/genrel/auto_pdf/Hersheys.pdf