Empire 8

[magicman]

Hey Bombers --

While I'd be fine with the award going to Burton (he certainly deserves it), I think it's a mistake to think his performance tonight was the nail in the coffin (unless you are asserting that Ithaca's clinching of the regular season championship is the deal sealer).

Carson and Burton have been equally impressive individually this year, I think it would be fruitless to argue for either through their statistical strengths.  Burton plays on a better team that eventually took control of the conference, and that's a good enough reason to give him the award. 

But by individual performance, they were equals.

Yeah, that was my point, should have made that clearer. The statistics are essentially dead even, (That is, if you assign equal weight to assists and rebounds) but the fact that Burton did it for a 23-1 conference champ missing one of their best players for a good chunk of the season while RIT faded puts it over the top

How about co-players of the year. They both certainly deserve the honor and it would be hard to fault the selection process if that happened.

[Bombers798891]

Hey Bombers --

While I'd be fine with the award going to Burton (he certainly deserves it), I think it's a mistake to think his performance tonight was the nail in the coffin (unless you are asserting that Ithaca's clinching of the regular season championship is the deal sealer).

Carson and Burton have been equally impressive individually this year, I think it would be fruitless to argue for either through their statistical strengths.  Burton plays on a better team that eventually took control of the conference, and that's a good enough reason to give him the award. 

But by individual performance, they were equals.

Yeah, that was my point, should have made that clearer. The statistics are essentially dead even, (That is, if you assign equal weight to assists and rebounds) but the fact that Burton did it for a 23-1 conference champ missing one of their best players for a good chunk of the season while RIT faded puts it over the top

How about co-players of the year. They both certainly deserve the honor and it would be hard to fault the selection process if that happened.

I had kicked that idea around myself, and almost threw it out there. Here's my thought on it, but it's only one guy's opinion, so be kind

These games aren't played in vacuums only to be analyzed on a score sheet. The team you play for, and the success they have, should count for something in the argument. If they don't, why aren't we kicking around Corey McAdam's chances? Consider:

His assist numbers are equal to Burton's and his PPG is only one less than Carson's and within three of Burton's. In fact, he's closer to Carson in scoring than Carson is to Burton. He also leads the conference in steals and assist/turnover ratio. He's even getting over 6 rebounds a game. When you consider everything, his numbers stack up pretty well with those of Burton and Carson, but I haven't seen one person even give serious consideration to him all season. Why? Well, because Naz is 11-13 and one upset away from missing the conference tournament and so McAdam is pretty much out of the running as far as we're concerned.

So to me, it's a bit unfair to eliminate McAdam by essentially saying his team's success is the reason he's out if we're not going to look at team success when comparing Burton and Carson. Because that difference has to mean something too

[e8bballfan]

Bombers, I agree with you. But you know damn well a leader of a below .500 team is never going to win an MVP, a POY, or any award like that in any league at any level.

Meanwhile, how silly of me to predict IC to score only 87 points at Naz. Averaging 117.5 a game and a 29.5 point margin of victory against naz now...they've got to feel fine heading into conference tourney next week if Naz takes care of business with Elmira.

And about the Fisher loss, 10-24 is all I have to say. That's just ridiculous. Let's see if Fisher can pull it together and get a win in the season finale.

[Bombers798891]

Bombers, I agree with you. But you know damn well a leader of a below .500 team is never going to win an MVP, a POY, or any award like that in any league at any level.

Meanwhile, how silly of me to predict IC to score only 87 points at Naz. Averaging 117.5 a game and a 29.5 point margin of victory against naz now...they've got to feel fine heading into conference tourney next week if Naz takes care of business with Elmira.

And about the Fisher loss, 10-24 is all I have to say. That's just ridiculous. Let's see if Fisher can pull it together and get a win in the season finale.

I do know that...that was my point. I'm not saying McAdam deserves the recognition. I'm just saying, if we're using the team success argument for one guy, we have to use it for all of them.

[MHoops]

Has there been an official announcement of what days the men's Empire 8 semi-finals and finals will be held?  Ithaca's press release says semi-finals are on 2/28 while the empire8.com site says the semis are on 2/27.

http://www.empire8.com/MBasket-Over.shtml

[Bombers798891]

Has there been an official announcement of what days the men's Empire 8 semi-finals and finals will be held?  Ithaca's press release says semi-finals are on 2/28 while the empire8.com site says the semis are on 2/27.

http://www.empire8.com/MBasket-Over.shtml

No, they both say the 28th...

"The Bombers will host the semifinals and final next Saturday and Sunday."

Next Saturday is the 28th.

It will be interesting to see how the times go if the IC women host as well. That's never happened before in the E8. I wonder if they'd try to have the women's/men's teams play back to back so fans don't have to wait around. In all likelyhood, Utica and IC are going to be the only two with both teams in. I'm just guessing on the seeds as of now but if you went something like

Women: Utica-Stevens
Men: Utica-RIT
Women: Ithaca-SJF
Men: Ithaca-Naz

Or some permutation on that, it'd probably be nice for the fans.

*Yes, this assumes IC's women top RIT and Naz beats Elmira. Neither is much of a stretch.

[MHoops]

I thought the semis were going to be on the 28th as well, but the empire8 link I posted above has this:

Date: Feb. 27-28, 2009
Location: Top Seed

This thread here has 27th-28th too: 
   http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=6127.msg1036404#msg1036404

[Bombers798891]

I thought the semis were going to be on the 28th as well, but the empire8 link I posted above has this:

Date: Feb. 27-28, 2009
Location: Top Seed

This thread here has 27th-28th too: 
   http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=6127.msg1036404#msg1036404

Yeah, I see that now. Conflicting information abounds...

[FROMAFAR]

Burton will be POY period.........  IC will beat NAZ (gee how's that for going out on  limb?)...  UC will beat my beloved Tigers, I think we overachieved this year and Carson could only carry these guys for so long...I didn't see the Fisher UC game but I have seen the same scenario with the refs for so long at Fisher.   It's horrible, I believe every word.....My Stevens guys are completely dissapointed in the Ducks, how many close games ( in the balance with 2-3 minutes to go and they just can't close it out).... Basically played with 5 forwards and no point...Too many T/O's this year and foul shooting, I dunno 58%  maybe...  I will be there to see my Tigers, I'll be the guy with my hands over my mouth, and wearing a Tiger Hat.....  I just can't see us beating UC and IC on successive nights.........BUT what do I know

[magicman]

I thought the semis were going to be on the 28th as well, but the empire8 link I posted above has this:

Date: Feb. 27-28, 2009
Location: Top Seed

This thread here has 27th-28th too: 
   http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=6127.msg1036404#msg1036404

Yeah, I see that now. Conflicting information abounds...

Last night I went to the E8 Men's Basketball site and saw this:

Date: Feb. 27-28, 2009
Location: Top Seed


I then gave that info to D3Hoops and it was posted on the link mentioned above.

Today an article on the E8 website and also article on Ithaca's website both state the semifinals are on Sat. Feb 28th and finals on Sun. March 1st. I'll inform D3Hoops of the change.

[MHoops]

Last night I went to the E8 Men's Basketball site and saw this:

Date: Feb. 27-28, 2009
Location: Top Seed


I then gave that info to D3Hoops and it was posted on the link mentioned above.

Today an article on the E8 website and also article on Ithaca's website both state the semifinals are on Sat. Feb 28th and finals on Sun. March 1st. I'll inform D3Hoops of the change.

The press release for today's Ithaca women's game says that the women's tournament will be Friday/Saturday.  I guess the men's tournament was moved to Saturday/Sunday in anticipation of Ithaca hosting both tournaments.

[Bombers798891]

I really hope RIT was just phoning it in since they have the #2 seed, because if they were really trying, they've got a long way to go to hang with Ithaca. The Bombers walked all over RIT 101-74.

I was really unimpressed with the Tigers. For having a big guy like Carson inside, they were thoroughly dominated on the boards even though Ithaca was missing Jeff Bostic. When a guard like Scott Ruffrage who is 6-0, can pull down 12 rebounds, there's a lack of effort inside. The Bombers were a +15 on the boards, which is staggering.

Carson puts up a solid 19-13, but Tom Brown hangs with him with a 9-11. Scott Ruffrage goes for 15-12, setting career highs in both and continues to hit big shots. Jordan Marcus goes for 21 including two very nice drives where he banked it off the glass over Carson.

Sean Burton proves why he's the top player in the conference. He goes 12-18 from the floor, 6-10 from three. 32 points, 10 assists and 6 steals. An all-around amazing effort. RIT simply does not have the players to match up with him On the third possession of the game, Brendan Rogers gets a steal, gets it to Burton who hits Cruz for an alley-oop dunk. The place went nuts. It was 6-0 at that point, but the game was over. Bombers went up by 20 at the half. RIT never gets closer than 18 the rest of the way.

RIT really just seemed out of it, which is disappointing. I know the game didn't really mean anything, but I don't know how it benefits a team to go into the conference tournament losing 4 of 5. They have beaten Utica twice, but it seems like that was a long time ago. They certainly need to play better than they did today. A win over IC certainly would have given RIT a mental edge, knowing they topped them twice

One bad thing for the Bombers is that Chris Cruz picked up two technicals, meaning he's out for the 1st round game of the conference tournament. I'm told Ithaca plans to appeal. The 1st technical came for hanging on the rim after the alley-oop, which had the Bombers furious. The second was a retaliatory toss of the basketball at an RIT player following a hard foul. Cruz has to know better than that on the 2nd one, but frankly, the first technical was a weak call. Hopefully Ithaca can get it overturned.

Also, although he hasn't got much press, I'm very impressed with the way Sean Leahy has adapted his game. He pulled down 8 rebounds today, and since Bostic's injury, has been averaging 9.4 rebounds a game as Ithaca has moved him inside.

Bombers wrap up a 24-1 regular season, best in school history.

[UCgrad45]

If my math is accurate, Doug Herring is 10 points shy of surpassing Justin Cichon for second on the all time scoring list at Utica College.

[buck1053]

I really hope RIT was just phoning it in since they have the #2 seed, because if they were really trying, they've got a long way to go to hang with Ithaca. The Bombers walked all over RIT 101-74.

I was really unimpressed with the Tigers. For having a big guy like Carson inside, they were thoroughly dominated on the boards even though Ithaca was missing Jeff Bostic. When a guard like Scott Ruffrage who is 6-0, can pull down 12 rebounds, there's a lack of effort inside. The Bombers were a +15 on the boards, which is staggering.

Carson puts up a solid 19-13, but Tom Brown hangs with him with a 9-11. Scott Ruffrage goes for 15-12, setting career highs in both and continues to hit big shots. Jordan Marcus goes for 21 including two very nice drives where he banked it off the glass over Carson.

Sean Burton proves why he's the top player in the conference. He goes 12-18 from the floor, 6-10 from three. 32 points, 10 assists and 6 steals. An all-around amazing effort. RIT simply does not have the players to match up with him On the third possession of the game, Brendan Rogers gets a steal, gets it to Burton who hits Cruz for an alley-oop dunk. The place went nuts. It was 6-0 at that point, but the game was over. Bombers went up by 20 at the half. RIT never gets closer than 18 the rest of the way.

RIT really just seemed out of it, which is disappointing. I know the game didn't really mean anything, but I don't know how it benefits a team to go into the conference tournament losing 4 of 5. They have beaten Utica twice, but it seems like that was a long time ago. They certainly need to play better than they did today. A win over IC certainly would have given RIT a mental edge, knowing they topped them twice

One bad thing for the Bombers is that Chris Cruz picked up two technicals, meaning he's out for the 1st round game of the conference tournament. I'm told Ithaca plans to appeal. The 1st technical came for hanging on the rim after the alley-oop, which had the Bombers furious. The second was a retaliatory toss of the basketball at an RIT player following a hard foul. Cruz has to know better than that on the 2nd one, but frankly, the first technical was a weak call. Hopefully Ithaca can get it overturned.

Also, although he hasn't got much press, I'm very impressed with the way Sean Leahy has adapted his game. He pulled down 8 rebounds today, and since Bostic's injury, has been averaging 9.4 rebounds a game as Ithaca has moved him inside.

Bombers wrap up a 24-1 regular season, best in school history.

Bombers, i agree with your assessment. I was thoroughly unimpressed with RIT, and was surprised when I looked at the boxscore and saw that players other than Carson scored in double figures. I was impressed with his skill around the basket, it seemed like he was able to get to the basket with ease (although not all the shots fell). Brown did a good job limiting any second chance points, which is probably why Carson only finished with 19. I also thoug

The Bombers absolutely shot the lights out, especially (and unsurprisingly) Burton. Also found myself impressed with the play of Marcus, who showed he can pull up or drive to the hoop.

It will be interesting to see what Ithaca can do when their shots aren't falling from the outside because it seemed like they didn't want to take anything inside the arc (and a look at the boxscore shows 37 of their 72 shots were from three-point range,  which is more than 50 percent). If they aren't hitting, they better hope Bostic is 100 percent.

Today's game also had me wondering if something else is going on behind the scenes at RIT. They've lost their last three and all four of their conference losses have come in their last five games (a span of 12 days). Outside of the loss to IC today, the others were versus 5th-place St. John Fisher (16-9 overall, 8-8 E8), 6th place Hartwick (13-12, 6-10) and 4th-place Nazareth (11-13, 8-7). Two weeks ago, the Tigers had the inside line on hosting, provided they could give the Bombers a game today. Now, they are the just one game ahead of 3rd-place Utica, which is on a hot, 7-game winning streak. This is a team that was cruising in the league, and now may not even be good enough to make it to the conference championship. It may be nothing more than the ball bouncing the other teams' way, but it seems like something has happened to take the wind out of their sails.

[Bombers798891]

I really hope RIT was just phoning it in since they have the #2 seed, because if they were really trying, they've got a long way to go to hang with Ithaca. The Bombers walked all over RIT 101-74.

I was really unimpressed with the Tigers. For having a big guy like Carson inside, they were thoroughly dominated on the boards even though Ithaca was missing Jeff Bostic. When a guard like Scott Ruffrage who is 6-0, can pull down 12 rebounds, there's a lack of effort inside. The Bombers were a +15 on the boards, which is staggering.

Carson puts up a solid 19-13, but Tom Brown hangs with him with a 9-11. Scott Ruffrage goes for 15-12, setting career highs in both and continues to hit big shots. Jordan Marcus goes for 21 including two very nice drives where he banked it off the glass over Carson.

Sean Burton proves why he's the top player in the conference. He goes 12-18 from the floor, 6-10 from three. 32 points, 10 assists and 6 steals. An all-around amazing effort. RIT simply does not have the players to match up with him On the third possession of the game, Brendan Rogers gets a steal, gets it to Burton who hits Cruz for an alley-oop dunk. The place went nuts. It was 6-0 at that point, but the game was over. Bombers went up by 20 at the half. RIT never gets closer than 18 the rest of the way.

RIT really just seemed out of it, which is disappointing. I know the game didn't really mean anything, but I don't know how it benefits a team to go into the conference tournament losing 4 of 5. They have beaten Utica twice, but it seems like that was a long time ago. They certainly need to play better than they did today. A win over IC certainly would have given RIT a mental edge, knowing they topped them twice

One bad thing for the Bombers is that Chris Cruz picked up two technicals, meaning he's out for the 1st round game of the conference tournament. I'm told Ithaca plans to appeal. The 1st technical came for hanging on the rim after the alley-oop, which had the Bombers furious. The second was a retaliatory toss of the basketball at an RIT player following a hard foul. Cruz has to know better than that on the 2nd one, but frankly, the first technical was a weak call. Hopefully Ithaca can get it overturned.

Also, although he hasn't got much press, I'm very impressed with the way Sean Leahy has adapted his game. He pulled down 8 rebounds today, and since Bostic's injury, has been averaging 9.4 rebounds a game as Ithaca has moved him inside.

Bombers wrap up a 24-1 regular season, best in school history.

Bombers, i agree with your assessment. I was thoroughly unimpressed with RIT, and was surprised when I looked at the boxscore and saw that players other than Carson scored in double figures. I was impressed with his skill around the basket, it seemed like he was able to get to the basket with ease (although not all the shots fell). Brown did a good job limiting any second chance points, which is probably why Carson only finished with 19. I also thoug

The Bombers absolutely shot the lights out, especially (and unsurprisingly) Burton. Also found myself impressed with the play of Marcus, who showed he can pull up or drive to the hoop.

It will be interesting to see what Ithaca can do when their shots aren't falling from the outside because it seemed like they didn't want to take anything inside the arc (and a look at the boxscore shows 37 of their 72 shots were from three-point range,  which is more than 50 percent). If they aren't hitting, they better hope Bostic is 100 percent.

Today's game also had me wondering if something else is going on behind the scenes at RIT. They've lost their last three and all four of their conference losses have come in their last five games (a span of 12 days). Outside of the loss to IC today, the others were versus 5th-place St. John Fisher (16-9 overall, 8-8 E8), 6th place Hartwick (13-12, 6-10) and 4th-place Nazareth (11-13, 8-7). Two weeks ago, the Tigers had the inside line on hosting, provided they could give the Bombers a game today. Now, they are the just one game ahead of 3rd-place Utica, which is on a hot, 7-game winning streak. This is a team that was cruising in the league, and now may not even be good enough to make it to the conference championship. It may be nothing more than the ball bouncing the other teams' way, but it seems like something has happened to take the wind out of their sails.

Like any team dependent on the three point shot, if they aren't hitting, things can go south. The Alfred game, which was Ithaca's closest win, showed that vulnerability. I would venture to say however, that Ithaca's hot shooting from distance is probably the reason they took so many. They went 9-18 from three the first half, and so I don't think they saw the need to go inside as much. The return of Bostic will certainly help that, but a majority of the threes the Bombers took were uncontested. Ithaca did have success inside, shooting 19-35 from two. I think they wouldn't have had trouble adapting their game. Burton, for example, was 6-8 from two and could take it to the basket at will.

As they enter the NCAA's, they will need to score inside. Just because RIT doesn't get out to defend perimeter shots, doesn't mean others will follow suit.

As for RIT, they strike me as a team not very deep. Of the players off the bench, only Lowe did much of anything. The Bombers were shorthanded without Bostic and were still able to put up 101. Burton is the key to the offense, but on any given night Cruz, Leahy, Marcus or Rogers are all capable of carrying the team.

Carson is a very good player. He has this nice little move where he pivots and goes for a leaning finger roll. He's also very good at altering shots, even if he doesn't block them all. Korinchak and Lowe also impressed me, although the Tigers don't move the ball very well. They had only 8 assists, whereas Ithaca had 19.

The RIT behind the scenes theory is compelling, but I'm not entirely sure that's the case. If you look at their season, they have had a lot of close wins in conference. They've had five conference victories by four points or less, plus one more that went to overtime. The Bombers, by comparison, have only had two. Both teams have lost one conference game by three points. So really, maybe RIT just got those breaks to gut out those tough wins. Half of their losses have not been close (19, 14, 19, 27). I think they were playing over their heads a bit, and now, they've come back down to earth. Really, they're a few breaks away from 12-13. Sometimes, you have that kind of season, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Additionally, I think the Bombers wanted to make a statement today. They've been waiting for this rematch for a chance to show that the first game was an aberration. For whatever reason, RIT didn't seem all that interested in showing that it wasn't. That was the most disappointing thing today. I'm sure the Tigers can rationalize it by saying, in the grand scheme of things, it didn't matter, but the truth is, the game didn't technically matter for the Bombers either, so to me, that says something about the make up of these two teams.