Empire 8

[sjfcards]

I am excited to see how IC matches up against Amherst. That team is always very talented, and will be a real tough test for IC. Could be a big win for the E8 if IC can pull it out.

[magicman]

Ithaca got manhandled by Amherst today 92-67. Bombers kept it close for a while, only down 41-38 at the half.

[FROMAFAR]

hey magic, give a good read on the tigers... I want to know how the guard play is in particular.....Tough to match Cyclones analysis of a game. Hey the E-8 is making a nice non conference statement overall... who knows this league may be not be down this year......... getting interesting.........

Utica, Alfred, Naz, Stevens  and Hartwick.... nice job......yesterday............

[magicman]

FROMAFAR,

Sorry to have to report that your Tigers dropped a 75-67 decision to the Husson University Eagles. I think they were the better team and should have gotten the W but things just didn't break their way. Probably, since you're interested in guard play, the 1st thing you need to know is that Nate Korinchhak didn't suit up for the game. Spoke to one of the players after the game and was told he's probably going to miss 3 games with an injury. Nothing serious.

RIT came out of the gate slowly and fell behind early as neither team shot particularly well. Husson had a 6'4" forward who was very athletic, Joshua Jones and he was their go to guy. The Tigers finally got their offense in gear and went on a little run to grab a 17-11 lead 9 minutes into the game. Big guy Scott Young(33Min) led the surge with 3 treys and got some help from fellow big Brendan Harder(28M) and guard Shawn Roe(23M). Those 3 guys started the game as well as G Anthony Terry(15M) and G Marcus Lowe(30M). 1st guy off the bench was G Adam Sweet(27M), followed by G Darryl Anderson(26M). Nick Dobson, 6'6" Frosh spelled the bigs for 11 minutes and G/F Adam Haines(7M) were the only other players to see action. Tigers could really use another big reserve. When Young or Harder needs a break there's no one to pick up the slack. Frosh had 0 pts,(took no shots) 2 rebs, 3 fouls, and 2 turnovers. Haines was 0x2, 0 pts 2 boards.

RIT maintained a 5-8 pt lead thru much of the 1st half then opened it to 13, 33-20 with 4:30 left, before settling for a 41-31 advantage at the break. Young was 4x5 from beyond the arc in the 1st half and had 14 pts and 4 rebounds. Harder had 7 pts and 6 boards and Roe hit 4x5 shots(1x1 3's) to total 9. That's the good news.

The Tigers must have been kidnapped at halftime because the team that took the floor to start the 2nd half didn't resemble the same group of guys that ended the 1st half. RIT couldn't buy a basket or it seemed get many rebounds. Husson over the 1st 4:30 of the 2nd period outscored the Tigers 11-0 to take a 42-41 lead and stretched their run to 18-4 for a 49-45 lead with 12:30 left to play.  RIT tied it up at 51 with 10:15 remaining only to have the Eagles go back up by 6 at 59-53 at the 7 minute mark.  Again the Tigers fought back to tie it at 59 but 3 successive RIT possessions resulted in no points and Husson again went up by 6 and stretched it to 8 at 70-62 with 2 mins. to play. The Eagles matched them over the last few minutes to make the final 75-67.
Tigers shot 17x29 in the 1st half but only 7x27 in the 2nd. Harder and Young with 10 rebounds between them in the 1st half only got 2 between them in the 2nd. I assume Korinchak is normally the point guard(I've never seen him play but know he led the team in assists last year) and without him it looked like the team lacked a true floor leader. Roe shot great in the first half but only took 2 shots in the 2nd hitting 1 to finish with 11 pts. Young ended up the games high scorer with 22 pts on 8x15 with 6 of those buckets from behind the arc. But he never got to the foul line . Spends most of his time out on the perimeter leaving only Harder to rebound . Harder is a scrapper inside, He was 5x8 from the field with 8 boards, 4 blocks, and 2 steals.  Roe seem to be the best shooter among the guards. Tonight it was point guard by committee due to Korinchak's absence as Lowe finished with 9 pts on 2x6fg 1x3 3's, 4x4 ft's, 5 assists and 2 steals with no TO's. Anderson had 5 pts on 2x7fg 1x2 ft's, 6 assists, 1 steal with 2 TO,s. Terry was 0x4 from the field, 2x4 ft's with 3 assists, 1 steal and 3 TO's. Wish  I could have given you better news and wish I could have seen the team with their true floor leader tonight. Tigers were outshot 49% to 43% & outrebounded 38 to 33. Eagles went to the line 26 times making 15. Tigers were 11 of 16.

I did get to see this Jones kid from Husson though and came away quite impressed.
He's only a sophomore and tonight he had 21 pts on 10x15 from the field. Was 0x2 from three pt land, 1x2 from the line, had 12 rebounds 3 assists, 1 blk, 1 steal and played the entire 4o minutes. Husson was a decent team, well coached, and I'm sure will be a tough game for Plattsburgh St. on Sunday afternoon.
The Tigers play Norwich at 1PM.  That should be a decent game as well but your Tigers will win that one I believe.

[buck1053]

Nazareth pounds Marietta  95-67  to even their record at 1-1. 5 guys in double figures led by Corletta with 21 and McAdam with 19. Next up Buffalo St. in the Championship game of the Coles Classic. The Bengals with a 14-0 run late in the game to turn a 62-60 lead into a 76-60 advantage over Pitt Bradford. Final score was 81-69 and Bengals played without 6'7"  Antonio Samedi, their most experienced big man. Frosh Jake Simmons in his Buffalo St. debut scored 27 points and Soph Norman Simmons had 18. Anyone know if these guys are brothers? Be interesting to see how these teams match up. Bengals will miss Samedi though.

I believe that they are; at least that's what I saw on the SUNYAC board. They are both from Rochester, one graduated from East, the other from School of the Arts. No mention of it on the Buff St. site, but I couldn't find any bios there.

[gobombers15]

As reported, Ithaca gets run off the floor in the 2nd half by Amherst and loses 92-67. Bombers rally late in the 1st half and close to 41-38 at half. Amherst quickly asserts control in 2nd half and wins going away.

Ithaca has already hiked a startling 95 three-point FG's in three games (31.7 per game). That's too many. Even though Bostic was misused (under-utilized is probably more accurate), teams recognized the threat he posed. Opponents will take away the three-point shot and make Ithaca go inside to beat them. We'll see if Mullins takes what opponents give him or if he tries to jam the square peg into the round hole.

[magicman]

FROMAFAR is not going to be happy as his RIT Tigers lose another game they probably should have won. Norwich Cadets overcome a 12 pt 2nd half deficit to take down the Tigers 81-80 in overtime in the consolation game of the Cardinal Classic in Plattsburgh. RIT was down early on but finally gained their 1st lead, 16-15 at 11:16. Back and forth lead changes until the Tigers took the lead 29-28 with 4:50 left. Stretched lead to 37-30 and settled for a 39-34 advantage at the half. Continued to build on hafltime advantage and gained their largest lead of the game at 53-41 with 14:49 left to play. Cadets refuse to roll over and outscore the Tigers 21-6 over the next 6 mins. to take the lead 62-59 with 8:30 to go. Cadets extend lead to 70-64 but Scott Young hit 3 straight treys for RIT to give the Tigers the lead at 73-71 with 1:20 to go. 2 Norwich free throws tied it up and Young hit 2 foul shots to regain the lead 75-73. Norwich fg ties it up with 18 secs left and McVean calls a TO with 11 secs to set up the final shot. Anthony Terry drives to the basket with 2 secs left and dribbles the ball off his foot out of bounds and the game goes to OT.
In OT teams exchange baskets and missed opportunities and Cadet fg gives them lead at 79-77. RIT's Anderson fouled and makes 1 of 2. Norwich miss, offensive rebound, and another miss, sends Tiger's Harder to the line but he misses the front end of 1&1. Cadets come down and score with 20 secs left to extend lead to 81-78. Tigers come down and run way to much clock, and then Anderson feeds Harder for an inside layup with 1.6 secs left. Scott Young has a monster game scoring 37 pts on 13 for 17 from the field and 2x2 from the line. 13 of his 17 field goal attempts were 3 pointers and he made NINE of em. He also had 9 boards. Terry chipped in with 17 pts on 6x15 fg 2x8 3's 3x3 ft. Harder added 13 pts on 5x13 fg, 3x5 ft along with 6 rebounds. Marcus Lowe started at the point and was alternated with Daryl Anderson. Together they were 1x10 from the field and 1x2 from the line. Lowe had 6 assists with 2 TO's, while Anderson had 2 assists and 2 TO's. As a team the Tigers shot 29x71 from the field(40.8%) and 9x12from the line(75%). Norwich outrebounded the Tigers 47-29 and shot the ball a little better 35x74(47.3%).
Don't know why the Tigers didn't attempt a 3 with seconds left and Young knocking them down all day long. Bad choices, TO's and missed free throws in crunch time cost them the W.

[JQV]

Ithaca has already hiked a startling 95 three-point FG's in three games (31.7 per game). That's too many.

Based on what?  This is an old coaching cliche retread promulgated by braindead TV analysts that have run out of things to say.

[bomber3]

Ithaca has already hiked a startling 95 three-point FG's in three games (31.7 per game). That's too many.

Based on what?  This is an old coaching cliche retread promulgated by braindead TV analysts that have run out of things to say.

I wouldn't expect much to change moving forward either.  This is a guard oriented team with the offense built around Cruz, Marcus, and the new freshman guards.  Last year's team primarily played only one big man with Leahy at the 4 spot (who is more of a guard than big).  This year's team has been going with a similar rotation with only one true big man (either Brown or Barera) on the floor at a time.  Against Amherst they went with both of them to attempt to combat Amherst's huge starting 5 (all five starters over 6'4").  But basically its the same philosophy as last year, 4 shooters on the floor most of the game along with one big.  The guards are going to need to rebound more for this to be successful since this is smaller team and they got outrebounded by 20+ the other day.

[Cyclone0205]

Ithaca has already hiked a startling 95 three-point FG's in three games (31.7 per game). That's too many.

Based on what?  This is an old coaching cliche retread promulgated by braindead TV analysts that have run out of things to say.

Actually, this is a more accurate than not coaching philosophy based on basketball IQ and simple math.

In college basketball you are lucky to consistently get up 65 shots a night.  If HALF of those shots are 3's, and only 1/3rd (or in Ithaca's case, 34% using a moving average of the last 5 years) are going in, well that means those 31 three's you are shooting is producing roughly 30 points.  And more often than not, you're not getting a chance at a put back, and certainly not at a foul call.  It just isn't an economical use of limited possession, regardless of your team make up.

The perfect example is look at the teams that dominated last year (aka went to the Final Four) for both Division I AND Division 3.  That's Villanova, Kansas, UNC, Mich St.   plus F&M, Richard Stockton, Wash U, and Guilford.  Those are 8 different teams, some like Ithaca (Nova) and some vastly different.

Out of those 8 teams, do you know how many averaged even 20 three point attempts per game?

Zero.  And the Division 3 teams shot less 3's than the D1's.

The year before that, using Division I and III final four teams again, you know how many averaged even 20 three point attempts per game?

Zero.


It's been proven every year in every march basketball tournament, teams that survive by the 3 point ball will lose more often than teams that are balanced.  And balanced in college basketball is not shoot as many 3's as 2's.  

[JQV]

Actually, this is a more accurate than not coaching philosophy based on basketball IQ and simple math.

In college basketball you are lucky to consistently get up 65 shots a night.  If HALF of those shots are 3's, and only 1/3rd (or in Ithaca's case, 34% using a moving average of the last 5 years) are going in, well that means those 31 three's you are shooting is producing roughly 30 points.  And more often than not, you're not getting a chance at a put back, and certainly not at a foul call.  It just isn't an economical use of limited possession, regardless of your team make up.

The perfect example is look at the teams that dominated last year (aka went to the Final Four) for both Division I AND Division 3.  That's Villanova, Kansas, UNC, Mich St.   plus F&M, Richard Stockton, Wash U, and Guilford.  Those are 8 different teams, some like Ithaca (Nova) and some vastly different.

Out of those 8 teams, do you know how many averaged even 20 three point attempts per game?

Zero.  And the Division 3 teams shot less 3's than the D1's.

The year before that, using Division I and III final four teams again, you know how many averaged even 20 three point attempts per game?

Zero.


It's been proven every year in every march basketball tournament, teams that survive by the 3 point ball will lose more often than teams that are balanced.  And balanced in college basketball is not shoot as many 3's as 2's.  

Oooh.  So close but, your entire argument that one stupid coaching cliche is legitimate is based on a second stupid coaching cliche.

Why are you luck to get up 65 shots?  What is that based on?

Since you are relying on IC's numbers, they got up an average of 97.9 shots last season and are averaging 95.7 shots through three games this season.

Also, why are you "less likely to get putbacks?"  What is that based on? 

Up next, let's debate the relevance of standing in a defensive stance for an arbitrary period of time and the value of slowly going through defensive slides.

[Cyclone0205]

JQV, you're joking right??


You are telling me that Ithaca shot 98 shots in 40 minutes?  That is what you believed when you typed that?


Ithaca, thru three games this season, has 192 shot attempts.  That is, guess what, 64 shots per game.  There isn't enough time in a game to shoot 98 shots.

I'm going to assume you were just messing with us with that one.

[Cyclone0205]

Ohhh, I see what you did now.


Umm, when reading a box score, above Field Goal Attempts and Makes it says "Total".  So when doing averages, you don't add that column to the 3 point attempts and makes.  That is factored into the total.  Someone who is 3-10 from the field and 3-3 from 3 isn't 6-13 total.  He's just 0-7 from 2.

I'm hoping that's what you did, in which case its just a little mistake.  Otherwise I have no clue how you'd think Ithaca is shooting near 3 shots a minute.


And as for what I base the fact that teams that shoot a lot of three don't have putback attempts.  Common sense dictates that a team shooting three's has more long rebounds than short ones, because that is how the ball bounces.  If you ever watch a basketball game you see that a 3 point attempt 5 out of 10 times (3 go in, 2 short rebounds) followed by a long rebound to the side opposite of where the shot came from.  Long rebounds don't produced "putbacks", they produce an extra possession. 


I understand your zeal for Ithaca but these are Ithaca people saying that's too many three's, and they are 100% correct.  It isn't based on cliches, but on watching the game of basketball, watching the teams that consistently succeed, and seeing what they do.  None of them use half of their total shots on 3 pointers.

[gobombers15]

Ithaca is 27-95 from 3-pt range: 28.4 %
Ithaca is 55-97 on 2-pt FG's: 56.7%

Cyclone, good analysis. Also not included in that calculus is what long rebounds many times lead to: fast-breaks the other way. Fewer 2-pt FG's leads to fewer FT's and, by extension, less foul trouble for opponents. I'm not saying that Ithaca should completely rein it in and shoot only ten 3's per game, but they have players in Cruz, Marcus and Rossi who are good enough athletes to consistently get to the rack for higher percentage shots and/or get fouled. They will be a better team if they get better shot selection. I'd like to see that number settle somewhere around 20 attempts per game. 

[jdex]

Buffalo State Simmons unrelated, except they apparently can play quite well. Both from Rochester. Norm soph, Jake frosh in BS backcourt. Both excelled in Bengals' opening tourney.