Empire 8

[sjfcards]

I am not saying that IC is padding any players stats, but on that topic, padding stats happens everywhere at the DIII level. Stats don't get the scrutiny they get at higher levels, and it happens. I think the reason for it is smaller SID departments where someone may be keeping stats for a game that really does not know a lot about the sport. When I played soccer at Fisher a kid from Naz had an absurd number of assists. It wasn't until later we found out student stat keepers were giving him credits for double assists like in hockey. SIDs so a great job but they are limited by staff and budget.

[FROMAFAR]

OK let me try and be more direct. I am not a journalist, obviously, but I can see Bomber 798 etc. point.  So let me clear that up. I am not indicting anyone of being dis-honest, however I do know that those put at the table are sometimes not that knowledgeable. HOLD ON, I am not now calling anyone dumb or stupid. Mistakes happen by players and coaches why not the stat people...  Let me change some direction on Rossi's assists and anyone else. First off I apologize to Rossi for using him as an example but it seems to fit my thoughts best. For some reason as most of you on this site know, I tend to point out the play of point guards more than other positions..As you also know I like the tough gutty kid that penetrates, plays defense and has no fear with the long pass and threading needles. When I see double figure assists, I like to dissect it a bit. In IC's case, they play a style that has the point guard bringing up the ball ( of course) . He then passes to a perimeter player who shoots USUALLY right away. In Rossi's case he does a good job of penetrating and then passing back out on the perimeter .  Many of these shots are 3's in IC's case. We have discussed this before. They shoot about 30 three's a game. On a bad night they hit 8 or 9.. that's a bad night.  Rossi has the ball in hands most of the time and plays 30+ minutes a night so of those 8 three's he probably gets 5-6 assists. On a good night he can get 10+  and that's just from  3's.  That being said, I guess maybe his assists are legit but does not really mean he is a creative point guard, which is not his fault, it's the system he plays in, and he does that well. So lets understand, and Bomber 3 thanks for your input. I would never indict anyone on a site. But I do understand Bomber 798 reading it that way. OK as Cyclone said back to Basketball. Good analysis on Stevens last night. I did not see the game, but you draw a great picture and make sense. SO they are not deep, except maybe for Sabattino giving them a solid 15-20 minutes.  Cutri will be a target when E-8 begins, BUT Jones is a tough kid to stop. He's creative and finds the hole. Also, Thompson has to step it up. I think he really is a two. I saw no assists last night and maybe 7 t/o's... not sure of that number. I think he would flourish with a pure point guard along side him, like last year. Also a big change at the foul line this year so far for Ducks. I know what you mean by Smith demanding the ball. Whatever way he has to do it, he needs the ball in the paint. I think he is extremely efficient down there. BUT  

[Ethelred the Unready]

I am not saying that IC is padding any players stats, but on that topic, padding stats happens everywhere at the DIII level. Stats don't get the scrutiny they get at higher levels, and it happens. I think the reason for it is smaller SID departments where someone may be keeping stats for a game that really does not know a lot about the sport. When I played soccer at Fisher a kid from Naz had an absurd number of assists. It wasn't until later we found out student stat keepers were giving him credits for double assists like in hockey. SIDs so a great job but they are limited by staff and budget.

Variation on a theme:  When I was the assistant coach of our girls basketball team (high school) one of my jobs was keeping stats during games.  As we were generally much shorter than the competition, the coach placed an emphasis on rebounds, because it was an indication of how hard we were working.  And we did pretty well.  But it always amazed me to read a box score after playing a particular rival and see that their big girls (always 2-3 6 footers) invariably had 12-15 rebounds each.  Granted it was high school girls basketball and there were a fair number of missed shots, but the indication was that they got every rebound.  After I retired from coaching I went to watch a game against this team and as near as I could tell, every time one of their girls touched the ball after a shot she got credit for a rebound.  And when you are 4-8 inches taller than the competition, you touch a lot of balls.  In the long run it has no bearing on the game, but it does make you go "hmmmmm".

[Bombers798891]

OK let me try and be more direct. I am not a journalist, obviously, but I can see Bomber 798 etc. point.  So let me clear that up. I am not indicting anyone of being dis-honest, however I do know that those put at the table are sometimes not that knowledgeable. HOLD ON, I am not now calling anyone dumb or stupid. Mistakes happen by players and coaches why not the stat people...  Let me change some direction on Rossi's assists and anyone else. First off I apologize to Rossi for using him as an example but it seems to fit my thoughts best. For some reason as most of you on this site know, I tend to point out the play of point guards more than other positions..As you also know I like the tough gutty kid that penetrates, plays defense and has no fear with the long pass and threading needles. When I see double figure assists, I like to dissect it a bit. In IC's case, they play a style that has the point guard bringing up the ball ( of course) . He then passes to a perimeter player who shoots USUALLY right away. In Rossi's case he does a good job of penetrating and then passing back out on the perimeter .  Many of these shots are 3's in IC's case. We have discussed this before. They shoot about 30 three's a game. On a bad night they hit 8 or 9.. that's a bad night.  Rossi has the ball in hands most of the time and plays 30+ minutes a night so of those 8 three's he probably gets 5-6 assists. On a good night he can get 10+  and that's just from  3's.  That being said, I guess maybe his assists are legit but does not really mean he is a creative point guard, which is not his fault, it's the system he plays in, and he does that well. So lets understand, and Bomber 3 thanks for your input. I would never indict anyone on a site. But I do understand Bomber 798 reading it that way. OK as Cyclone said back to Basketball. Good analysis on Stevens last night. I did not see the game, but you draw a great picture and make sense. SO they are not deep, except maybe for Sabattino giving them a solid 15-20 minutes.  Cutri will be a target when E-8 begins, BUT Jones is a tough kid to stop. He's creative and finds the hole. Also, Thompson has to step it up. I think he really is a two. I saw no assists last night and maybe 7 t/o's... not sure of that number. I think he would flourish with a pure point guard along side him, like last year. Also a big change at the foul line this year so far for Ducks. I know what you mean by Smith demanding the ball. Whatever way he has to do it, he needs the ball in the paint. I think he is extremely efficient down there. BUT  

I apologize if my initial response was frosty...other posters are right, sometimes people just don't know if a play is an assist, and yeah as you point out, a lot of Rossi's assists aren't exactly astounding passes. There's a lot of stuff kept on the perimeter. He's not exactly Jason Kidd over here.

But yes, onto basketball. Bombers have got to play some defense this season. If you're hitting 41% of your threes and you're 2-2...well, what happens if that number drops to 35/36? Even two extra missed shots per game from there is huge.

[thebear]

Having been a stats man for the past 40 years, there is always some judgment in the stats, even the NCAA stats manual acknowledges this.

Probably as many assists are not credited because, the spotter or the poor guy trying to watch the game and input to statcrew at the same time misses the pass. 

As I understand it, an assist is a pass that contributes directly to helping the player making the basket.  There is no difference between a player penetrating and whipping a behind the back pass to a teammate for a dunk as there is to the same player penetrating and dishing to a wide open teammate for a sweet three from the perimeter, they are both assists. 

I frown on assists where a player has to beat another defender before scoring, or the stat guy winks at an air ball in the paint and calls it a pass, instead of a missed shot and offensive rebound.

I have kept stats for a 10 assist per game player (Mike Deane) and he had many of his assists on fast breaks, on out of bounds plays where he threaded passes for direct layups and on penetrations where he was able to kick to an wide open teammate for a high percentage shot.

Great teams who are unselfish will have a high percentage of assists.  Potsdam's 32-0 national championship teams had 59% of their baskets assisted and a 53% team FG%, while their opponents only had 46% assists.

Last year's Potsdam team only had 46% of their baskets assisted, as they were 5-20 with a 46% FG%.

Rebounds are different, every missed shot has to have a rebound credited either to an individual, a team, or as a dead ball rebound.  Tipping the ball to a teammate who eventually gains control, is a legitimate reason to credit a rebound according to the NCAA.  The tall players who get their hands on the ball will in fact earn their fair share of rebounds that way.  A ferocious shot blocker is actually entitled to a blocked shot and a rebound if his block is immediately controlled by a teammate, as his action, changed control of the ball.

Hope this helps

[Ethelred the Unready]

Rebounds are different, every missed shot has to have a rebound credited either to an individual, a team, or as a dead ball rebound.  Tipping the ball to a teammate who eventually gains control, is a legitimate reason to credit a rebound according to the NCAA.  The tall players who get their hands on the ball will in fact earn their fair share of rebounds that way.  A ferocious shot blocker is actually entitled to a blocked shot and a rebound if his block is immediately controlled by a teammate, as his action, changed control of the ball.

Hope this helps

That makes sense for 1 rebound.  What I was trying to say was that there were at least 2 rebounds given - the tip and the control - and in some cases multiple tips must have resulted in multiple rebounds.  Sort of the basketball equivalent of the hockey assist.

[boobyhasgameyo]

Wait...what's happening?  This isn't the E8PP.  Where am I?  What's going on?

I'm looking to become a bandwagon fan this winter.  I read that Fisher is 1-2.  Do we think they will improve enough for me to start hoping on the bandwagon or do you think I will have to wait until next year?

[fisheralum91]

cmon boob- hop on !
should be fun

[Bombers798891]

Having been a stats man for the past 40 years, there is always some judgment in the stats, even the NCAA stats manual acknowledges this.

Probably as many assists are not credited because, the spotter or the poor guy trying to watch the game and input to statcrew at the same time misses the pass. 

As I understand it, an assist is a pass that contributes directly to helping the player making the basket.  There is no difference between a player penetrating and whipping a behind the back pass to a teammate for a dunk as there is to the same player penetrating and dishing to a wide open teammate for a sweet three from the perimeter, they are both assists. 

I frown on assists where a player has to beat another defender before scoring, or the stat guy winks at an air ball in the paint and calls it a pass, instead of a missed shot and offensive rebound.

I have kept stats for a 10 assist per game player (Mike Deane) and he had many of his assists on fast breaks, on out of bounds plays where he threaded passes for direct layups and on penetrations where he was able to kick to an wide open teammate for a high percentage shot.

Great teams who are unselfish will have a high percentage of assists.  Potsdam's 32-0 national championship teams had 59% of their baskets assisted and a 53% team FG%, while their opponents only had 46% assists.

Last year's Potsdam team only had 46% of their baskets assisted, as they were 5-20 with a 46% FG%.

Rebounds are different, every missed shot has to have a rebound credited either to an individual, a team, or as a dead ball rebound.  Tipping the ball to a teammate who eventually gains control, is a legitimate reason to credit a rebound according to the NCAA.  The tall players who get their hands on the ball will in fact earn their fair share of rebounds that way.  A ferocious shot blocker is actually entitled to a blocked shot and a rebound if his block is immediately controlled by a teammate, as his action, changed control of the ball.

Hope this helps

When I did it for IC, a lot of it was "improving your position" once you got the ball.

I guess for me, the thought process that appears to be going on with Rossi is just centered on the number itself being unusually high. Which seems like a highly cynical position to take considering his number isn't unusually high.

Rossi's averaging 8.01 assists per game in his career. E8 Demigod Corey McAdam averaged 7.33. When you factor is that McAdam took 20 shots per game (FGs and FT'S) and Rossi takes 15, what's the difference? The additional assist can probably be found somewhere in the extra shots McAdam took that Rossi doesn't. And I don't remember McAdam's assist totals being called into question.

[thebear]

That makes sense for 1 rebound.  What I was trying to say was that there were at least 2 rebounds given - the tip and the control - and in some cases multiple tips must have resulted in multiple rebounds.  Sort of the basketball equivalent of the hockey assist.
[/quote]

Can't happen unless they are also charging a shot for each tip.  Every shot has to result in either a rebound or a made shot, even misses at the end of a period become team rebounds or dead ball rebounds.

Statcrew forces you to score a rebound for every miss.

[Ethelred the Unready]

That makes sense for 1 rebound.  What I was trying to say was that there were at least 2 rebounds given - the tip and the control - and in some cases multiple tips must have resulted in multiple rebounds.  Sort of the basketball equivalent of the hockey assist.

Can't happen unless they are also charging a shot for each tip.  Every shot has to result in either a rebound or a made shot, even misses at the end of a period become team rebounds or dead ball rebounds.

Statcrew forces you to score a rebound for every miss.
[/quote]

Well in this case Statcrew was, I believe, the coach's wife.

[sjfcards]

Wait...what's happening?  This isn't the E8PP.  Where am I?  What's going on?

I'm looking to become a bandwagon fan this winter.  I read that Fisher is 1-2.  Do we think they will improve enough for me to start hoping on the bandwagon or do you think I will have to wait until next year?

Booby, nice to have you and FA91 on the basketball board. I think you can jump on. Fisher is 1-2, but the big man, Jason Norsen, has yet to play. Kramer (yest that Kramer) has not had any time either. Kornaker will get them going. The trip down to Virginia to start the season was a bit of a black box, since no one really knows what those teams had to offer, but I think Fisher will be fine. I am a little worried about their start, but it is to early to panic. They have a real tough game against U of R next, but we should know a lot more about Fisher after this weekend.

Hopefully they win enough games for you and 91 to stick around. I love having some Fisher posters that people will not hate. It has been tough at times.

[magicman]

Ithaca defeats host Cortland 84-75 behind huge effort of Phil Barera who scored 33 pts on 16x18 from the field and grabbed 12 rebounds as well. Jordan Marcus with 12, Andrei Oztemel with 10 pts and 10 rebounds and to keep the Sean Rossi assist controversy alive Sean had 14 more of them tonight along with 10 points.

Red Dragons were led by Dustin Marshall with 23 and Jesse Winter with 21.

Bombers reverse a Cortland lead of 27-26 with 4 minutes left in the 1st half with a 10-2 run to go up at the break 36-29. Bombers open up a double digit lead out of the break and stretch it to 18 before Cortland rallies to cut it to 7 with 2:37 left to play75-68. Red Dragons with too little too late.   

[Bombers798891]

Ithaca defeats host Cortland 84-75 behind huge effort of Phil Barera who scored 33 pts on 16x18 from the field and grabbed 12 rebounds as well. Jordan Marcus with 12, Andrei Oztemel with 10 pts and 10 rebounds and to keep the Sean Rossi assist controversy alive Sean had 14 more of them tonight along with 10 points.

The best part...it was a road game, so all of Rossi's assists count

I do not understand the Bombers' offense at all...in the first half:

From 3: 1-for-18
From 2: 14-for 16

For the game, Ithaca was 6-of-30 from 3 and 27-of-33 from two. I understand you are the team you are, but it's astounding that they can shoot 20% from three, 81% from two and half nearly the same amount of shots from both. I mean, look, the jacking up 30 threes a game is fun and all, but it's amazing the Bombers don't adjust their style when something is so blatantly staring them in the face.

Good to see Miles Gries making some shots. I'd like to see Oztemel do more than just shoot threes though. Yes, he was primarily a three-point shooter last year, but this season he's been almost exclusively one.

Nonetheless, good to see the Bombers get a win

[FranElia]

I will attest to Rossi's assist count tonight. It helps when a lot of your passes go to a guy who shoots 16-of-18 from the field!!

Fran Elia
Cortland SID