Empire 8

Bombers798891 · January 19, 2011, 01:58:01 PM

So, more than halfway through the season, early thoughts on E8 POY?

Right now, I put it between Barrera, Smith and Sudderly

Barrera is putting up a 17-8 on 66% shooting
Sudderly is 17-9 on 50%
Smith is 13-12 an 63%

Ryder at 15-8 is in the discussion, as is Simon Smith with 13-12. Patterson at 16-4-3 steals might be as well.I suspect Rossi will get in the discussion, unless FROMAFAR has a vote

No clear winner. Right now I would lean to Barrera, with the shooting percentage in his favor, but a lot might depend on how Stevens and IC finish the year

FROMAFAR · January 20, 2011, 02:38:57 PM

Bomber%^&*........ You really don't get it with Rossi.... Numerous times I have said he is a very good player....never questioned his WORTH to his team.... I just think HIS assists are over-rated. ( not his fault)... Not saying assists are overa-rated, just saying some of HIS are or better yet questionable. Clearly anyone who plays 40 minutes a night on a team with IC's record is good at what he does. Just hard for me to take ALL those assists seriously. BUT let's not bore everyone with that again. I think Smith gets a slight edge over Barrera..... Smith is on a team that I believe is over-achieving right now, and he could be very well be the reason, along with a surprise season out of Sheldon Jones.... Silly to pick right now, but certainly they will be in the discussion...The Stevens IC game should be an eye opener. Stevens "D" vs. IC "O" my thought is Stevens isn't high scoring.....IC doesn't play D so Stevens will score a bit more than usual... Stevens will probably get into foul trouble..They are not as deep as IC so I look for a 78-68 final... IC. But

Bombers798891 · January 20, 2011, 05:23:12 PM

Quote from: FROMAFAR on January 20, 2011, 02:38:57 PM
Bomber%^&*........ You really don't get it with Rossi.... Numerous times I have said he is a very good player....never questioned his WORTH to his team.... I just think HIS assists are over-rated. ( not his fault)... Not saying assists are overa-rated, just saying some of HIS are or better yet questionable. Clearly anyone who plays 40 minutes a night on a team with IC's record is good at what he does. Just hard for me to take ALL those assists seriously. BUT let's not bore everyone with that again. I think Smith gets a slight edge over Barrera..... Smith is on a team that I believe is over-achieving right now, and he could be very well be the reason, along with a surprise season out of Sheldon Jones.... Silly to pick right now, but certainly they will be in the discussion...The Stevens IC game should be an eye opener. Stevens "D" vs. IC "O" my thought is Stevens isn't high scoring.....IC doesn't play D so Stevens will score a bit more than usual... Stevens will probably get into foul trouble..They are not as deep as IC so I look for a 78-68 final... IC. But

I get it...I just like busting your chops on it. It's boring and cold in Ithaca.

It is worth noting that he and smith are the only two players with a double double right now. Although I'm not sure how seriously I take Smith's rebounds. I like my rebounds to be grabbed while another guy is right there and you have to fight for them. Smith catches them in space...

J/K. I will say I am not a fan of Smith from the line. He's roughly 54% this season, 46% last season and 40% before. So while I give him credit for improving, I don't see as much value in a big man you can hack. Especially at the this level where you can have a deeper bench. If you're in a one and one situation especially late, fouling him can be as good as a turnover. Barera is a 74% career FT shooter.

I had the same complaint with Mark Carson. You don't have to drain 90% of your shots, but flirting with 50% is a drawback in any player.

FROMAFAR · January 20, 2011, 06:25:20 PM

I think we found something we agree on. There is absolutely no reason for a college player at any level that should shoot less than 70% from the foul line. There are too many hours of practice and available gym time to work on them.....BUT it shouldn't cost a player with Smith's numbers an award. Remember I didn't say he deserved it yet... I give him the slight edge, because he means more to his team...yes Barrera is imporatnt but he has support. IF he has a bad night IC can still win even against a good opponent, but the Ducks, I don't think can beat good ooponents without Smith.....But I also said there are more games to come so silly to debate yet. I have a question, serious.... when a player throws the ball off the backboard so a following team-mate can dunk..is it an assist? Is it a missed shot? can't be both...can it be neither? . ......Or is it subjective...help me out....Bomber your the retired stat guy......

Bombers798891 · January 20, 2011, 08:00:51 PM

Quote from: FROMAFAR on January 20, 2011, 06:25:20 PM
I think we found something we agree on. There is absolutely no reason for a college player at any level that should shoot less than 70% from the foul line. There are too many hours of practice and available gym time to work on them.....BUT it shouldn't cost a player with Smith's numbers an award. Remember I didn't say he deserved it yet... I give him the slight edge, because he means more to his team...yes Barrera is imporatnt but he has support. IF he has a bad night IC can still win even against a good opponent, but the Ducks, I don't think can beat good ooponents without Smith.....But I also said there are more games to come so silly to debate yet. I have a question, serious.... when a player throws the ball off the backboard so a following team-mate can dunk..is it an assist? Is it a missed shot? can't be both...can it be neither? . ......Or is it subjective...help me out....Bomber your the retired stat guy......

1) Re: the assist-- I think it would kind of be up to the stat guy to determine if this was an intended pass or not.

2) Now to continue to disagree with you

...I confess I never liked the "They can win without him" logic. I mean, that kind of penalizes good teams. In Barera's case though I think the answer is no. Barera is the most valuable player on the team. Mullins has his starting five and two backups--Grier and Jordan, both of whom are guards. The only other guy with the size to play inside is Oztemel, and he's basically a three-point specialist (A good one, but there's no getting around that he's taken 18 two-point shots all season)

Consider: In Ithaca's first loss, Barera only played 21 minutes. In those 21 minutes, he went 8-for-9 from the floor for 16 points. Ithaca's other two centers played 11 total minutes and had zero points. Without Barera, you're playing 4-on-5 offensively, which makes them much easier to defend. You can concentrate everything on the perimeter.

Another case in point would be the Cortland game. The Bombers fire up nothing but bricks from the outside, but Barera goes 16-of-18 from the floor. Take him out, and there's no way the Bombers win that game the way they were shooting threes.

FROMAFAR · January 21, 2011, 10:42:47 AM

Bomber #$% Consider this, first of all neither team has experienced playing without Barera or Smith, so until that happens . Look at the Ducks vs. Merchant Marine Academy... one of the 3 losses... Smith has 4 PTs. only gets off 4 shots.... Ducks lose. The point is, both have played in every game. Bararra hasn't had a bad game ( I think)... Smith has one and they lose to a team they should beat. Of course this example and reasoning doesn't necessarily make my point, but it is a start. Your first example makes some sense, the second one is tough to sell. The cold shooting may ahve nothing to do with Barrera only playing 21 minutes... I THINK we can both agree, we need more info to actually know FIRST OF ALL if either team can win without them, and may never know which one is needed more. HEY may be we will get a beeter idea tonight...

FROMAFAR · January 21, 2011, 09:43:46 PM

Not bad for a guy who doesn't watch many e-8 games ... 73-68 IC I predicted 78-68 IC....If Rossi just had two more assists..............
The Smith, Barerra matchup... pretty even in this one.............

Bombers798891 · January 21, 2011, 10:01:20 PM

Quote from: FROMAFAR on January 21, 2011, 09:43:46 PM
Not bad for a guy who doesn't watch many e-8 games ... 73-68 IC I predicted 78-68 IC....If Rossi just had two more assists..............
The Smith, Barerra matchup... pretty even in this one.............

It was an odd game to say the least. Bombers led 34-15 and looked like they were going to run Stevens out of the gym. Then the shots just stopped falling. Stevens did an outstanding job taking away the easy three-pointers by the Bombers. Outside of Barera, Ithaca hit just three shots in the second half.

Yeah, Smith and Barera played to a draw I would say. One thing about Smith is that he's the ONLY guy on Stevens to really get any rebounds. He had 18 and no-one else on Stevens had more than four. Ithaca had three guys with eight or more and Cruz had six.

I was really impressed with Stevens. They could have folded early and fought back tough. Looking forward to the rematch

Old Duck · January 22, 2011, 11:05:52 AM

Just some observations. Stevens big's shoot 17 for 30, compared to 13 for 42 for everyone else, Smith over 60% for the year yet they get no touches the last 2 min when the game is one the line. You guys include Smith in the POY talk but he is the 3rd or 4th option in their offensive plan, Why? As a side note it seemed that more the 1 of his game high 18 rebounds were made with Ithaca players in the area working to get the rebound.

Bombers798891 · January 22, 2011, 12:48:26 PM

Quote from: Old Duck on January 22, 2011, 11:05:52 AM
As a side note it seemed that more the 1 of his game high 18 rebounds were made with Ithaca players in the area working to get the rebound.

Clearly you don't understand sarcasm...

sjfcards · January 22, 2011, 05:42:15 PM

Big win for Fisher today as they beat RIT by 19. Ithaca struggling with Hartwick in overtime.

sjfcards · January 22, 2011, 05:43:36 PM

I have to say I did not expect Hartwick to be this good. What has caused the team to come so far so quick?

FROMAFAR · January 22, 2011, 07:31:44 PM

Hey Old Duck, I'm with you..... Smith should be the go to guy, no question. The only other options are Cutri and Jones... I wouldn't depend a 3 pt shooter, and Jones while certainly has improved still appears out of control at times....AND of course you go to needs to be a 60% shooter whon can get a better % shot, just like IC uses Barerra. My point when I stated Barrera has a better supporting cast than Smith... I have seen Smith play and heis the real deal.....I think he has played almost 3 years now and has had only one true point guard who looked for as a first option... of course that was Greco.... Not sure I undesrtand sarcasm...... did I miss something AGAIN?

Bombers798891 · January 22, 2011, 11:42:47 PM

Crazy game at the Bulb as Ithaca misses a chance to put some distance between them and the rest of the conference. Five teams now sit with two losses in conference play. With Ithaca playing 6 of the 8 remaining games on the road, there's a very real chance they go something like say, 18-7 and don't even qualify for the conference tournament.

Phil Barera with a statement game on offense...19-of-25 shooting for 38 points. Simply unreal. Rossi with 20 points and 13 assists. Barera is simply a beast inside. To be shooting 68% and taking that many shots is astounding.

Neither team played a semblance of inside defense. Hartwick was 32-of-45 on two point shots and Ithaca was 28-of-43.

magicman · January 23, 2011, 10:53:51 AM

Quote from: Bombers798891 on January 22, 2011, 11:42:47 PM
Crazy game at the Bulb as Ithaca misses a chance to put some distance between them and the rest of the conference. Five teams now sit with two losses in conference play. With Ithaca playing 6 of the 8 remaining games on the road, there's a very real chance they go something like say, 18-7 and don't even qualify for the conference tournament.

Phil Barera with a statement game on offense...19-of-25 shooting for 38 points. Simply unreal. Rossi with 20 points and 13 assists. Barera is simply a beast inside. To be shooting 68% and taking that many shots is astounding.

Neither team played a semblance of inside defense. Hartwick was 32-of-45 on two point shots and Ithaca was 28-of-43.

And that loss by the Bombers may well knock them out of the D3hoops Top 25. I fear the East Region wiill have no representation. Outside chance Oswego State with a win over Ithaca and the fact that their 3 losses are by a total of 7 points might get some support.

Bombers, you don't really believe what you wrote about Ithaca, thatthere's a very real chance they may not qualify for the conference tournament? The worst they do in those final 8 games is 5-3(which will be good enough) but more likely 6-2 or 7-1. I still believe they're the best team in the league and not only will they qualify for the E8 tournament, they will host it. Now whether or not they win it, well that's another story.