Empire 8

[Gregory Sager]

Sager,


The east is really worse than the Atlantic?  Having been following Skyline, CUNY, and NJAC basketball for quite some time, the Atlantic has dropped off DRAMATICALLY from where it used to be.  The Skyline is actually awful now, especially since it's 2 best teams (stevens and manhattanville) left the region the year after going to the NCAA tournament.

NJAC has fallen off considerably from the dominance it once had.

And CUNY has been the York show, but aside from that it's been a bunch of mediocre teams. 


I dunno, just seems odd to me that the Atlantic Region is considered stronger than the East, especially since I think the Atlantic has gotten definitely 1 (Stevens 06-07), and maybe 2 at most, at large Pool C bids into the Big Dance in recent memory.

The Atlantic has definitely dropped off in recent seasons, mostly because the once-mighty NJAC's overall strength has plummeted faster than the stock price of a large financial institution. I'd say that the Atlantic is right down there with the East as well. But at least the Atlantic has some historical success on the national scene (although not really that much since Horace Jenkins tossed his Willie Pat uniform into the laundry basket for the last time early in this decade), including the Rowan championship in '96, whereas the East hasn't won a D3 title since Rochester's in '90 -- and it hasn't had a non-Yellowjackets representative in the Final Four since NYU in '94 or a non-Yellowjackets winner of the whole shebang since Potsdam State in '86. That's absolutely pathetic as far as national performance is concerned, especially since the Rochester program isn't exactly representative of the East Region in terms of schedule, competition level, or roster makeup.

So, yeah, if you're into the whole "misery loves company" thing, then we can lump the Atlantic in with the East.

P.S. I'm not ragging on the East just to rattle people's cages in here. As a born-and-bred upstater and a big admirer of the old Jerry Welsh Potsdam State teams and Tom Murphy's Hamilton teams back in the day, I'd love to see a renaissance of D3 basketball in upstate NY.

[thebear]

Greg - I think several things have happened.

The emergence of D-I programs upstate (e.g. Siena, Albany, Binghamton etc. has cherry picked some marginal D-I players who would have been turned into D-III stars),

The departure of "name" coaches - Sauers, Welsh, Murphy

The only name coach left in the region with a national rep is Neer.

Also, players are leaving the region.  Hopkins at Amherst is an example, do you really think he wouldn't have played for Murphy or Welsh back in the day.  Welsh was a master at picking up discards from other programs, and mining his network of NYC & LI contacts to come up with gems.

Then there's parity,  The SUNYAC, even in the Welsh era, was always a snake pit.  Long bus rides, invariably bad weather, Friday night/Saturday afternoon games, even good teams could (& did) get beat.  Given that you really need to be 21-5 or 22-4 to guarantee a Pool C bid these days, not a lot of room for road losses.

That being said, the biggest test remaining on Ithaca's schedule is at SLU a week from tomorrow.  I think the E-8 is down a bit this year, and barring injury, I would not be surprised to see them at 25-0 going into the E-8 tourney.

[Ethelred the Unready]

Greg - I think several things have happened.

The emergence of D-I programs upstate (e.g. Siena, Albany, Binghamton etc. has cherry picked some marginal D-I players who would have been turned into D-III stars),

The departure of "name" coaches - Sauers, Welsh, Murphy

The only name coach left in the region with a national rep is Neer.

Also, players are leaving the region.  Hopkins at Amherst is an example, do you really think he wouldn't have played for Murphy or Welsh back in the day.  Welsh was a master at picking up discards from other programs, and mining his network of NYC & LI contacts to come up with gems.

Then there's parity,  The SUNYAC, even in the Welsh era, was always a snake pit.  Long bus rides, invariably bad weather, Friday night/Saturday afternoon games, even good teams could (& did) get beat.  Given that you really need to be 21-5 or 22-4 to guarantee a Pool C bid these days, not a lot of room for road losses.

That being said, the biggest test remaining on Ithaca's schedule is at SLU a week from tomorrow.  I think the E-8 is down a bit this year, and barring injury, I would not be surprised to see them at 25-0 going into the E-8 tourney.

Mack Spellman at Emmanuel and Luke MacDougall at Trinity are a couple of names that come to mind that may have stayed in region back in the day.

But I imagine the loss of homegrown talent is offset by kids from out of the area coming in.  Coco at Hartwick and I'm sure there are others.  There are 1 senior, 2 sophs and 1 freshman on the UR roster from NY and Hamilton has 2.

makes a little more sense with NY added.  must be friday

[buck1053]

Hartwick College rebounds with a win over Wells College tonight 75-61 at home after a tough loss on road to Skidmore Tuesday night...

Hartwick had five players post double figures in the win and improve their record to 5-2 on the young season. Cocozziello finished with 11 points 9 boards and 7 assists to round out the evening McCann led all HC scorers with 13.

I spoke up after Alfred beat them, and I have to do so again. Even though it was a 14-point win, beating Wells isn't quality because they are a first-year program. Currently 1-5, they've only beaten Hilbert, and even AU won against them, 71-64. It's not a knock on Wells, just the reality that this is their first year playing men's basketball.

[gobombers15]

Greg - I think several things have happened.

The emergence of D-I programs upstate (e.g. Siena, Albany, Binghamton etc. has cherry picked some marginal D-I players who would have been turned into D-III stars),

The departure of "name" coaches - Sauers, Welsh, Murphy

The only name coach left in the region with a national rep is Neer.

Also, players are leaving the region.  Hopkins at Amherst is an example, do you really think he wouldn't have played for Murphy or Welsh back in the day.  Welsh was a master at picking up discards from other programs, and mining his network of NYC & LI contacts to come up with gems.

Then there's parity,  The SUNYAC, even in the Welsh era, was always a snake pit.  Long bus rides, invariably bad weather, Friday night/Saturday afternoon games, even good teams could (& did) get beat.  Given that you really need to be 21-5 or 22-4 to guarantee a Pool C bid these days, not a lot of room for road losses.

That being said, the biggest test remaining on Ithaca's schedule is at SLU a week from tomorrow.  I think the E-8 is down a bit this year, and barring injury, I would not be surprised to see them at 25-0 going into the E-8 tourney.

Bear, I'm optimistic about this year's team, but I think 25-0 is almost impossible. The Friday night/Saturday afternoon schedule will make it tough. Playing at Utica, Stevens and Fisher are never easy. I definitely think a Pool C is a possibility for the Bombers if they're tripped up in the E8 Tournament, but 25-0 probably isn't happening. I'd take 22-3, though!

[thebear]

Fisher ran the table in '04-05, and I think Ithaca this year is comparable. 

I'll grant you that Stevens is a new wrinkle. 

Also the E8 trips, other than Stevens (225 miles) are all 100 miles or less.

Compare that to the 430 miles of bad weather (250 miles of Snowbelts + 180 miles of two lane highway) separating Fredonia & Plattsburgh by way of Potsdam.

Looking forward to the weekend.

[with age came?]

Have to side with Bombers on  this one E-8 (with 9 teams) may be down slightly at the top but from my viewpoint there may be more parity from top to bottom (ie: Hartwick, Elmira, Alfred which almost were always pushover's may expend some work now).  One injury or awful cold shooting night could be a problem in anybody's gym this year whereas in previous years it will still be a night off in a few of the gyms.  That equates to a loss or two in my opinion but I hope I am proved wrong because an undefeated nationally ranked team from the east is always a good thing to me.

[magicman]

Ithaca may not run the table as thebear suggests but even if they don't get the automatic bid as conference champion because of an upset in the E8 playoffs, I have to believe they'll get a pool C bid. I think they'll achieve a Top 25 ranking before too long(possibly as early as next week)and will be well positioned to make a run in the NCAA tournament. This team will most likely be the top ranked team in the East region all season long. 5 teams ranked just ahead of them, #29 Calvin, #26 Hope, #25 Rhode Island College, #22 Translyvania, and #20 UMass-Dartmouth have all lost in the past 3 days. In addition, #17 Worcester Polytech, #15 Whitworth, #14 Puget Sound, #13 Illinois Wesleyan, and #7 UW-Stevens Pt. have also dropped a game since Monday's rankings came out. Ithaca won't forge ahead of all these teams but they just might crawl over 5 of them and crack the Top 25. St. Lawrence on the road next Saturday, as thebear stated, could be their biggest obstacle. If they get by the Saints they could run that undefeated streak to 10 before the Utica and Nazareth games. I think this team will be in the Top 25 all season and could peak as high as 12 or 13, but a top 10 is not out of the question. Remember last year Plattsburgh State was ranked #25 with an 8-2 record on Jan 6th and steadily rose to the #7 spot by week 14.

[d3lifer]

Hartwick College rebounds with a win over Wells College tonight 75-61 at home after a tough loss on road to Skidmore Tuesday night...

Hartwick had five players post double figures in the win and improve their record to 5-2 on the young season. Cocozziello finished with 11 points 9 boards and 7 assists to round out the evening McCann led all HC scorers with 13.

I spoke up after Alfred beat them, and I have to do so again. Even though it was a 14-point win, beating Wells isn't quality because they are a first-year program. Currently 1-5, they've only beaten Hilbert, and even AU won against them, 71-64. It's not a knock on Wells, just the reality that this is their first year playing men's basketball.

Buck...I wasn't looking to state that this was a monumental win just updating league information on a game that happened that night maybe in was poor choice of words "rebounding with a win against Wells". Hartwick has for the last few years done an okay job of taking care of winning games early on in the season against teams they should beat there biggest hurdle as a program has always come in the second semester. It will be interesting to see if it is one that they can climb over this year. This is by far Hartwick's most talented and deep team they have had in Coach Culpo's tenure. You have to have depth to compete on a playoff level Ithaca, Fisher, Utica, RIT, Nazareth and Stevens last year have always been able to compete night in and night out at a high level because of quality depth those teams have always had. Don't mean to leave any teams out of the discussion just looking at the teams that are usually in the discussion.

(modified by GS for formatting)

[RITFAN]

RIT snatched victory from the jaws of what would have been a crushing defeat.  After being up by 15 early in the 2nd half (and by 19 in the first half) they found themselves down by 4 points with 24 seconds remaining.  3 point goals by Scott Young and Nate Konrinchak (with 2 fouls shots by Corey McAdam in between) tied the game just before the buzzer.  RIT dominated the overtime - Mark Carson scored the first 7 points, with a foul shot and consecutive "old school" 3 pt plays.

Scott Young had 18 points, and Adam Sweet had 14-15 (not sure) for RIT.  RIT also got quality minutes from freshman Clayton Gray, Dan O'Brien and Brendan Harder.  Dan O'Brien - who is listed at 6'2"- attempted (and unfortuately missed) what would have been a spectacular dunk off a baseline drive.  Not the smartest play, but he has some impressive jumping ability.  Clayton Gray showed a nice touch around the basket. 

The referees were erratic, to put it kindly.

I have point out that while players on Ithaca and Stevens get much attention on this post, the best statistics in the Empire 8 belong to Mark Carson - 1st in rebounding (both offensive and defensive), 1st in blocked shots, 2nd in scoring (by a hair), 3rd in FGP, and 12th in steals.  I don't know why this is - I guess there are so few poster who follow RIT.  Anyway, I find it annoying that Bostic and Burton (both fine players) from Ithaca have both been named Empire 8 player of the week while Carson (with better overall stats) has not been acknowledged.  He plays hard every minute he is in the game, and is a pleasure for any basketball fan who knows the game to watch.

[Cyclone0205]

Nice work on the post.  I'm sure my buddy FROMAFAR will be a smiling when he wakes up this morning after a good win for RIT.


As for the Player of the Week stuff, that's largely a "what did you do, and when did you do it" award from what I've seen.


Week 1 - Gray wins MVP of Stevens Tip-Off Tournament.  Scores a lot of points.  Gets POY.
Week 3 - Bostic goes for 19 and 22.  Wins MVP of Tournament.  Gets POY.



I'm sure Carson, after the in conference performance this week, will probably win next weeks (unless some other player won a tournament MVP that I'm unaware of 

  Player of the Week is almost always going to go to an E8 player that wins a tournament MVP.

[RITFAN]

I should have mentioned another freshman for RIT - Marcus Lowe - had eight points and 5 rebounds in 33 minutes.

I think the reason I forgot him is he has been contributing all season, and I don't really think of him as one of the freshman any longer.

[Cyclone0205]

Just talked to a buddy of mine who attended the NYU/Stevens game.  Said that 1) Don't believe the NYU undefeated hype.  This is not your daddy's NYU team.  There's no DeCorso and certainly no Boone on this years squad.  John Mish, their center, went for 18-10 against Stevens, and I was told that given the way Mish was going, Carson and Bostic should both be disappointed with anything less than 20-20 days against the Ducks.


Even so, Stevens kept the game close despite shooting under 40% from the field and from 3.  Reason they lost was that they went 12-24 from the free throw line (a whopping 50%), while NYU went 25-33 (75%).  When you give up 13 points in free throw differential, you aren't going to win many of those games. 



Ends the semester for the Ducks, so my next contribution will be whatever E8 game I can catch before the holidays.

[FROMAFAR]

Cyclone, I'm awake....... Your right again.... I am thrilled with the NAZ game. FAN, Carson has been everything we expected this year and more. The kids are growing up fast..As you guys know I don't like getting too chatty, might upset the kharma....... Cyclone is also correct about E 8 player of the week criteria. You also have to win games, so your supporting cast is important. I am excited since I believe Naz and Stevens are both NOT what I expected this year. Utica seems to be underachieving as well. I believe you can make the E 8 Tourney with 6 losses this year...... We should be in the mix. Young and Sweet are stepping up, and Korinchak is getting more consistent. Enough, I may have cost them 2 games with all this talk Hooper your right depth is very important and IC certainly has that. BUT I think that's NAZ, Stevens and Utica's short-fall. That's why down the road I think it's going to be a free for all for the last 3 playoff spots. NAZ has shown it's problems, UC has Connolly putting in a new system. Playing more guys, and Herring not being featured, which is a good thing, but takes time. Stevens just looks lost... How many foul shots has Passalaqua taken this year? I'll bet less than 10 in 8 games. Just stands around on offense. Grey not seeing the ball enough... how does Higgins take as many shots as Grey in a game...No knock on Higgins, he should go to the hole, ( but has to knock down foul shots). My Stevens guys tell me they really miss the kid Greco. He shot 70+% from free throw line, and was second best 3pt. shooter on team, besides his court savvy.  Still trying to get the low down on that...Stevens bench non existant... AND Cyclone your right about rebounding... They might be better going small and quicker rather than ask ther bigs to match up with the Carsons's of the world. Let the other teams bigs match up with their speed....Oh well, all's well thus far....FAN keep up the good work.. your lucky for us      


     

[gobombers15]

RIT snatched victory from the jaws of what would have been a crushing defeat.  After being up by 15 early in the 2nd half (and by 19 in the first half) they found themselves down by 4 points with 24 seconds remaining.  3 point goals by Scott Young and Nate Konrinchak (with 2 fouls shots by Corey McAdam in between) tied the game just before the buzzer.  RIT dominated the overtime - Mark Carson scored the first 7 points, with a foul shot and consecutive "old school" 3 pt plays.

Scott Young had 18 points, and Adam Sweet had 14-15 (not sure) for RIT.  RIT also got quality minutes from freshman Clayton Gray, Dan O'Brien and Brendan Harder.  Dan O'Brien - who is listed at 6'2"- attempted (and unfortuately missed) what would have been a spectacular dunk off a baseline drive.  Not the smartest play, but he has some impressive jumping ability.  Clayton Gray showed a nice touch around the basket. 

The referees were erratic, to put it kindly.

I have point out that while players on Ithaca and Stevens get much attention on this post, the best statistics in the Empire 8 belong to Mark Carson - 1st in rebounding (both offensive and defensive), 1st in blocked shots, 2nd in scoring (by a hair), 3rd in FGP, and 12th in steals.  I don't know why this is - I guess there are so few poster who follow RIT.  Anyway, I find it annoying that Bostic and Burton (both fine players) from Ithaca have both been named Empire 8 player of the week while Carson (with better overall stats) has not been acknowledged.   He plays hard every minute he is in the game, and is a pleasure for any basketball fan who knows the game to watch.

RITFAN, based on your email address, I'm guessing that you are not an unbiased observer. For one, Bostic was named E8 Player of the Week during a week when RIT didn't even play a game. Bostic earned the honor on the morning of Monday, December 1st, while Burton earned the honor on the morning of November 24th. RIT played zero games between the two announcements. So there's the reason why Bostic won it that week after posting 13.5 pts and 17 rebs during a 2-0 week where he won MVP of a tournament.

The week Burton won it, here were his stats:

11/18 vs Hobart: 28 pts, 4 assists in 27 mins of a 118-81 rout of Hobart

11/21 vs Trinity: 16 pts, 7 assists in 80-75 win over a perenially good Trinity squad from the NESCAC

11/22 at Rochester: 22 pts, 6 assists in 81-72 over UR at the Palestra.

What about averaging 22 pts and almost 6 assists during a 3-0 week that included wins over two very good teams, a rout over Hobart and the MVP of the UR Tourney should preclude Burton from taking that honor? Carson had a nice statistical week (18.5 pts, 16.5 rebs), much of which was garnered in a game against weak Thomas, but had it in a 1-1 week against average, at best, competition. Even if I were unbiased, I'd have a tough time not giving it to Burton after the week he had against that quality of competition.

You will be happy to know, however, that it was announced today that Mark Carson earned the honor of E8 Player of the Week. Congratulations, well-deserved.