Empire 8

[sjfcards]

Well Fisher layed a major egg last night. I watched the game online and it looked like there was no energy or entusiasm on Fisher's side last night. Carson is a stud, and RIT is way to good to not play well like Fisher did last night. I think Fisher can still make a run at a 2 seed, but RIT is really making that game with IC interesting.

[bamm]

Not surprisingly, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree that Carson would or should be E8 POY at this point. Again, not surprisingly, I'd have to give the nod to Sean Burton. He's the best player on the #12 team in the nation. He leads the conference in scoring, 2nd in assists and generally dominates the game in a way that not a lot of 5'9'' players can. Without him, Ithaca couldn't run the high octane offense that they do, at least not nearly as efficiently. He gets open shots for his teammates and makes each of them SIGNIFICANTLY better players, the true mark of a "superstar." Burton also gets it done when the chips are down. For example, he scored 11 of the last 13 Ithaca points in a big road victory at St. Lawrence.

Carson is a very good player and will more likely than not be a 1st team player (I think you'll see both Carson and Bostic on 1st team). He has improved immensely over his career and is now receiving due recognition. But I just don't think his accomplishments eclipse what Burton has done and where Burton has taken the Ithaca program.

I think Carson to this point is making a legitimate race of it.  He numbers are simply overwhelming.  Virtual tie with Burton for PPG and leading all of NCAA basketball in rebounding (leading the conference by four boards a game).

First in blocks, first in field goal percentage.

There's a lot of season left, but at this point Carson is delivering the "wow" factor big time.  It would be a tough vote right now.

[Cyclone0205]

GoBombs,


At the end of the season, I think what you are saying will come to fruition and it is obviously a flip of the coin argument, but right now if I had a vote I'd be going with Carson.


As Bamm said, the points per game is not an overwhelming favorite for either one.  While Burton is 2nd in the conference in assists, Carson is #1 in ALL of college basketball in rebounding.  D1..D2..D3..he is first.  That gives him the edge in their "secondary" category.


Carson is also 1st in blocks and 1st in field goal percentage.  So, taking Burton's stats vs. Carson's stats right now, I actually think the overall edge goes to Carson.


The difference is that Burton's team is the #12 team in the country.  But that's the dilemma...because there is no debate that Burton's "team" is A LOT better, at least on paper/historically, than Carson's.  Bostic is a 1st team all E8 player, Leahy is a very very good player for them, and everyone expected Ithaca to be good.  What Burton's doing is no surprise, and that hurts him.

Carson on the other hand has brought RIT out of no where, and because the players around him get less respect, it makes what he's doing seem even bigger.  I'm 90% sure if the coaches voted now, Carson would end up getting the nod.


That being said, this is why we don't vote in January.  If I were a betting man, at the end of the season I would still bet on Burton to win POY.

[Nosyor]

I'm new to the boards and figured I'd start to chime in.  I was at the RIT vs Fisher game last night and Carson was as impressive as his number show.  At this point he has to be the MVP of the league.  If you take him off the court this RIT team is very young and unproven (nicely put).  Watch how the team plays when Carson is resting on the bench.  Both their scoring and defense get much much worse.  With Carson in the game the rest of the players can ease into their roles.  Young, Sweet, and Roe are always a threat from the outside.  This makes it difficult for teams to double down on Carson, there is always a shooter waiting.  Korinchak reminds me of Rajon Rondo.  He scores points, gets rebounds, assists, and lots of steals.

I'm looking forward to the game this Sunday vs Ithaca.  The President of RIT has made a proposition to dye his hair orange if both sides of the bleachers are full for the boys and girls games.  I remember this one last year and the place was packed and very loud.  It was a great atmosphere for a D3 game.  RIT has played Ithaca tough the past few years and I'd expect this one to follow suit.

Not surprisingly, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree that Carson would or should be E8 POY at this point. Again, not surprisingly, I'd have to give the nod to Sean Burton. He's the best player on the #12 team in the nation. He leads the conference in scoring, 2nd in assists and generally dominates the game in a way that not a lot of 5'9'' players can. Without him, Ithaca couldn't run the high octane offense that they do, at least not nearly as efficiently. He gets open shots for his teammates and makes each of them SIGNIFICANTLY better players, the true mark of a "superstar." Burton also gets it done when the chips are down. For example, he scored 11 of the last 13 Ithaca points in a big road victory at St. Lawrence.

Carson is a very good player and will more likely than not be a 1st team player (I think you'll see both Carson and Bostic on 1st team). He has improved immensely over his career and is now receiving due recognition. But I just don't think his accomplishments eclipse what Burton has done and where Burton has taken the Ithaca program.

Ithaca has a better cast of players then RIT does. I think we would all agree with that.  In my opinion, if you were to take Burton off of Ithaca they would still be a top 4 team, possibly the number 1.  If you take Carson off of RIT they finish 6 at best.  Carson controls both ends of the floor.  He alters shots and eliminates second chance points on defense and scores on offense.  It's still very early in the empire 8 season and we will see how the games play out.  I'm excited to see what happens this Sunday.

[Bombers798891]

I'm new to the boards and figured I'd start to chime in.  I was at the RIT vs Fisher game last night and Carson was as impressive as his number show.  At this point he has to be the MVP of the league.  If you take him off the court this RIT team is very young and unproven (nicely put).  Watch how the team plays when Carson is resting on the bench.  Both their scoring and defense get much much worse.  With Carson in the game the rest of the players can ease into their roles.  Young, Sweet, and Roe are always a threat from the outside.  This makes it difficult for teams to double down on Carson, there is always a shooter waiting.  Korinchak reminds me of Rajon Rondo.  He scores points, gets rebounds, assists, and lots of steals.

I'm looking forward to the game this Sunday vs Ithaca.  The President of RIT has made a proposition to dye his hair orange if both sides of the bleachers are full for the boys and girls games.  I remember this one last year and the place was packed and very loud.  It was a great atmosphere for a D3 game.  RIT has played Ithaca tough the past few years and I'd expect this one to follow suit.

Not surprisingly, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree that Carson would or should be E8 POY at this point. Again, not surprisingly, I'd have to give the nod to Sean Burton. He's the best player on the #12 team in the nation. He leads the conference in scoring, 2nd in assists and generally dominates the game in a way that not a lot of 5'9'' players can. Without him, Ithaca couldn't run the high octane offense that they do, at least not nearly as efficiently. He gets open shots for his teammates and makes each of them SIGNIFICANTLY better players, the true mark of a "superstar." Burton also gets it done when the chips are down. For example, he scored 11 of the last 13 Ithaca points in a big road victory at St. Lawrence.

Carson is a very good player and will more likely than not be a 1st team player (I think you'll see both Carson and Bostic on 1st team). He has improved immensely over his career and is now receiving due recognition. But I just don't think his accomplishments eclipse what Burton has done and where Burton has taken the Ithaca program.

Ithaca has a better cast of players then RIT does. I think we would all agree with that.  In my opinion, if you were to take Burton off of Ithaca they would still be a top 4 team, possibly the number 1.  If you take Carson off of RIT they finish 6 at best.  Carson controls both ends of the floor.  He alters shots and eliminates second chance points on defense and scores on offense.  It's still very early in the empire 8 season and we will see how the games play out.  I'm excited to see what happens this Sunday.

1) Of course Carson has a high field goal percentage. When you play inside, that's what you do. Take high percentage shots. His percentage is amazing, but he's making easier shots. Burton's three-point ability makes him a dual threat. That has to factor in. He can score inside and out.

2) The Bombers' entire offense runs of off Burton. He sets the tempo, he makes the plays. It's part of being a point guard. You run the game. There's a degree of difficulty involved in that, and it's not simply measured in assists. It's like being the quarterback of a football team. Carson on the other hand, has to have others get him the ball. I'm not saying he's not a great player. But there are a lot of things that have to be set up for him to get the ball in a position to score. It ends with him. It starts with Burton. No-one else on that team could run that offense.

3) Yes, IC has a better surrounding cast than RIT does, but again, that's what a good point guard can do. He can make others around him better.

4) Carson is a defensive force, what with the blocked shots, but Burton is good on the defensive end as well, as evidenced by his steals.

Ultimately, this is a tough one to call. When you have players who play in a completely different system and style, it's really apples to oranges. I doubt you could go wrong with either of them, and there's a lot of basketball to be played. I'd go with Burton, mostly because I believe you're asked to do more as a point guard. But both are phenominal players

[gobombers15]

A few points, and I hope that I don't end up reiterating what Bomber798891 says:

1) I think the fact that Burton's supporting cast is better is fairly irrelevant and probably a red herring in this discussion. I hate when people trot out the "well X has a better supporting cast than Y, therefore Y should win MVP/POY." If that's the case, those awards would always go to the best player on mediocre-to-pretty good teams, because you can always argue that the best player on the best team had better players around him.

2) I really don't think it can be quantified just how much better Burton makes his teammates. Leahy and Cruz are good players, but would they be as good if Burton wasn't drawing defenses and getting them wide-open shots? Would Bostic be as good if Burton wasn't stretching defenses or penetrating and dishing to him for easy layups and dunks? He takes his supporting cast to that next level; without him, they're just another Ithaca team, pretty good but nothing special. Cruz, Bostic and Leahy are not markedly better than when IC had Bellis/Schultz/Roth or Riggins/Miller/Wallen. But Burton is the key. At the end of the season, I don't think this will be lost on the coaches and will probably be the difference for Burton.

3) It comes down to the age old question of whether you'd rather have the dominating big guy or the unbelievable point guard? Chris Paul or Dwight Howard? Frankly, I will take the PG every time because he has the ball in his hands on every possession. Especially at this level, I think the point guard has more bearing on the outcome.

Sunday will be a great challenge for Ithaca. Clark will be rocking (and full) for what should be a matchup of teams undefeated in the conference. I'd venture to say that this is Ithaca's biggest game to date, even larger than the St. Lawrence or Rochester games.

[Cyclone0205]

To start, I'd like to say I completely agree with some of the Bomber faithful's points:


1)  Burton does make this team go like no other point guard in the conference would. 

*However, if you say "The Entire offense runs through Burton" because it starts with him..you have to acknowledge The Entire RIT offense runs through Carson as well.  Put another way, did the old New York Knicks offense run through Derek Harper just because he was the point guard?  No..it ran through Patrick Ewing.*


2)  Just because you're supporting cast is better doesn't mean you are eliminated.


3)  If i were STARTING a team, obviously you take the PG first.



However, we've seen this debate before.  As it played out then, the "wow" factor won, which is why I believe if, right now, coaches had to vote, they would vote Carson.


2005...NBA MVP Voting.

Shaquille O'Neal EASILY should have won MVP over Steve Nash.  23 pts...10 rebounds..2.3 blocks..took his Miami Heat team from 42-40 the year before to #1 in the Eastern Conference. 


Nash...15.5 pts...11.5 assists.  Very gawdy numbers.  Plus, it was in Mike D'Antoni's Seven Seconds Or Less [better known as LOSS backwards] system, something new and exciting, so it had that "WOW" factor.  The little guy running the show.  Taking over with the ball in his hands.



Nash won the award, but it's very hard to argue that it shouldn't have gone to Shaq.  To give credence to Nash's numbers that year is to say Texas Tech quarterbacks, or all quarterbacks playing in those Run and Gun Systems, should win the Heisman, instead of acknowledging how great the system is (look at Nash now) for that player.



I don't mean to say that Burton is a system player at all, because he'd be excellent anywhere.  But I think that Carson is the guy putting up the Shaq numbers...with the team turnaround...and in our case, he, unlike Burton, has the "wow" factor at the moment.

[bamm]

There's a lot of season left.  If Carson keeps up his torrid pace I'm sure we'll be spending plenty of time next month talking about this.

GB15 -- I hope Eli falls and breaks a hip in practice today.

[FROMAFAR]

Every point made on this debate is valid. Remember the coaches vote on this and a big part of their decision is based on their gut. Yes the stats obviously and rightfully dictate the gut, but they also take those things that don't show up in the stats into consideration when voting. That being, which team's success depends more on the player, who handles themselves with dignity on the court, (hey if either of these guys did a touch down dance or an "in your face" move that coach would have second thoughts if it were close.) However these two guys are classy, which is part of makes them so good. I think the coaches, if they are even thinking about this, are glad they don't have to vote right now, and we all know how quickly things change in this conference. Listen if Hartwick finishes first I'm sure Coco will be a thought..... I know, I'm losing it now, but just a point. This game Sunday is huge for both programs. I believe the outcome will not effect IC's # 1 seed in the E-8 tourney, as the # 2 will have at least 4 loses, maybe more. IC won't. It will however effect their national ranking. On the other hand, this would solidify RIT as a real factor in the E-8, and move them up in the East region rankings. I'm really looking forward to this one. Unfortunately I am stuck down in the city this weekend. I will tune in however. Just being in a big game has me excited......        


     

[Ethelred the Unready]

Every point made on this debate is valid. Remember the coaches vote on this and a big part of their decision is based on their gut. Yes the stats obviously and rightfully dictate the gut, but they also take those things that don't show up in the stats into consideration when voting. That being, which team's success depends more on the player, who handles themselves with dignity on the court, (hey if either of these guys did a touch down dance or an "in your face" move that coach would have second thoughts if it were close.) However these two guys are classy, which is part of makes them so good. I think the coaches, if they are even thinking about this, are glad they don't have to vote right now, and we all know how quickly things change in this conference. Listen if Hartwick finishes first I'm sure Coco will be a thought..... I know, I'm losing it now, but just a point. This game Sunday is huge for both programs. I believe the outcome will not effect IC's # 1 seed in the E-8 tourney, as the # 2 will have at least 4 loses, maybe more. IC won't. It will however effect their national ranking. On the other hand, this would solidify RIT as a real factor in the E-8, and move them up in the East region rankings. I'm really looking forward to this one. Unfortunately I am stuck down in the city this weekend. I will tune in however. Just being in a big game has me excited......        


     

"But what do you know"..  C'mon man, coaches are looking for consistency!   

[FROMAFAR]

Ehthelred, of course consistency is part of the equation, but the coaches, believe it or not, are human, and if it's a coin toss, the little things come into play. There is no science to their pick.....BUT all this means nothing right now, the whole season has to be reviewed. You are correct however, what do I know? 

[Ethelred the Unready]

Ehthelred, of course consistency is part of the equation, but the coaches, believe it or not, are human, and if it's a coin toss, the little things come into play. There is no science to their pick.....BUT all this means nothing right now, the whole season has to be reviewed. You are correct however, what do I know? 

I was just being a smart-ass (some say the most intellectual of my body parts), pointing out that for the first time, you did not use your signoff

[FisherDynasty]

I have to go with Cason so far on this one.  1) his stats are unreal 20 pts and 20 boards in some games is rediculous.  2)  RIT is 5-0 in the conference which is unexpected, meaning Carson's contribution has made his team better than expected.   3)  Burton may get it at end of year depending on results of conference however, both teams are undefeated in conference and Carsons stats outweight Burtons in conference stats to date. 
4)  Burton definately makes people better and probably is the best pg in the league this year however, bostic is the key guy some games, leahy key in others.  For RIT it is Carson day in and day out.  yes having a supporting cast hurts Burton a little bit and thats why you cant compare stat for stat.  Its like the old Fisher team when Sean o'brien got it and Jeff Sidney with only averaging 11-12 pts per game and you have others in the league scoring 20.  In the end the overall success of the teams is going to be the bigger factor.  If RIT stays in top 3 I think Carson will have a great chance in getting it.  If Ithaca completely runs away easily then someone from Ithaca has to get it.

[FROMAFAR]

Ethelred you got me..... tough getting old, I have no idea why I left out my sign off, I guess I'll blame work........I don't know but to change course a little, I saw the Chase seeds. I think Naz is a little over-rated. Unless their early season woe's are over. They were on fire against Stevens, and who knows if that was just a one game deal or have they turned the corner. They still have that no "D" look to them. The Chase is going to turn over a lot of stones....... By next week we should have a good feel for the East region...But what do I know   

[NaztyNate]

Gotta go with Carson on this one, but ultimately it will probably go to Burton because I think Ithaca will end up winning the league and that will be the deciding factor. Carsons numbers have been rediculous and he has led RIT to a surprising start. Leading the nation in rebounding is quite a stat.