Empire 8

[buck1053]

Tough losses for fisher this week, both very close, and couldnt get the job done.  Thats signs of a young team.  There window for an atlarge bid is getting smaller, they can only afford 1-2 more losses and they have to be to ithaca both times.  If they dont beat RIT, RIT is going to move in front of fisher for the at large.

You are ridiculous. Their window for at at-large bid is closed. They need an automatic bid to get into the tournament.

They are currently 14-4, but they are 6-3 in the league. That's good for third place -- if the season ended today.

Their league losses are to Hartwick (2-8 E8, 8-10 overall), Stevens (4-6 E8, 11-8 overall) and RIT (10-0 E8, 14-4 overall). They also have to lost to DeSales, which is an impressive 16-3 and 9-2 in the MAC Freedom league (although I'm not sure how impressive that league is).

I think you'll be in for a rude awakening when the regional rankings come out Feb. 4, the official rankings and don't see Fisher at the top. And they won't be in the Top 25 anymore after this past weekend.

And, I don't think they will be able to beat Ithaca one time, especially since the Cardinals can't score much.

I think your pipe dream of an at-large bid should be laid to rest, because the only way Fisher makes the NCAA tourney is by winning the conference tournament.

[gobombers15]

Does anyone know the tiebreaks for that?

The SJF-IC game will be huge. It's their last tough road assignment for the Bombers before they finally return home for a spate of games, before the last trip to Naz. It's amazing how that angle is so under-reported for Ithaca. The game Tuesday will make 14 neutral/road games for Ithaca against only five home games. Fisher will need this game because a loss gives Naz a door to go through. Seems like they've finally started to play some defense over there.

I pasted the relevant link below. Effectively, if both go 15-1 in the league with a season split, Ithaca is going to win the conference based on Rule 9.1.2(d): SOS Index Within Region. I don't think those numbers are available just yet, but I think it's unlikely that anyone has a better in-region SoS than Ithaca.

http://empire8.com/PDF/TB-Basketball.pdf

Again, this may all be moot in the near future, but this is a message board and what else is there to talk about right now.

[FisherDynasty]

haha pipe dream good one. I'm just posting by the facts of whats happened so far, dont think its a pipedream.  I dont think im rediculous, which in region teams beside rit and ithaca would get and at large over them right now? UofR? i dont think so, fisher has a win over them.  a sunyac? a team with 6 losses vs 4.  hamilton 5 to 4 losses, mayyyyyyyybe them.  who else? NYU? just dropped last 2 and are going to lose much more in their tough conf.

Anyways, as noted in my post, I think they will drop more by season end so will probably drop out of the race, but as of now they are still in in my opinion. In a typical year i could understand your post better however, there are not many really strong teams that stand out this year, and just about all teams besides ithaca have some bad losses on the road. 

[Ethelred the Unready]

haha pipe dream good one. I'm just posting by the facts of whats happened so far, dont think its a pipedream.  I dont think im rediculous, which in region teams beside rit and ithaca would get and at large over them right now? UofR? i dont think so, fisher has a win over them.  a sunyac? a team with 6 losses vs 4.  hamilton 5 to 4 losses, mayyyyyyyybe them.  who else? NYU? just dropped last 2 and are going to lose much more in their tough conf.

Anyways, as noted in my post, I think they will drop more by season end so will probably drop out of the race, but as of now they are still in in my opinion. In a typical year i could understand your post better however, there are not many really strong teams that stand out this year, and just about all teams besides ithaca have some bad losses on the road. 

Take a second and wander over to the Mutli-Region board.  Under the Pool C topic there is a chart that attempts to approximates the regional rankings, prior to their publication I believe Wednesday.

Currently SJF would be ranked 6th in the East region and have the 31st Pool C bid.  As there are only 18 Pool C's this year, that leaves SJF out - as of today.

[buck1053]

haha pipe dream good one. I'm just posting by the facts of whats happened so far, dont think its a pipedream.  I dont think im rediculous, which in region teams beside rit and ithaca would get and at large over them right now? UofR? i dont think so, fisher has a win over them.  a sunyac? a team with 6 losses vs 4.  hamilton 5 to 4 losses, mayyyyyyyybe them.  who else? NYU? just dropped last 2 and are going to lose much more in their tough conf.

Anyways, as noted in my post, I think they will drop more by season end so will probably drop out of the race, but as of now they are still in in my opinion. In a typical year i could understand your post better however, there are not many really strong teams that stand out this year, and just about all teams besides ithaca have some bad losses on the road. 

Take a second and wander over to the Mutli-Region board.  Under the Pool C topic there is a chart that attempts to approximates the regional rankings, prior to their publication I believe Wednesday.

Currently SJF would be ranked 6th in the East region and have the 31st Pool C bid.  As there are only 18 Pool C's this year, that leaves SJF out - as of today.

Well, I was working on an elaborate post, but it seems Ethelred beat me to the punch and much more succinctly. And the first regional rankings will be released on Wednesday.

Here are the rankings as posted on the Multi Region board:

EA  21   01   01    0.6332 0.5198 0.5556 Ithaca                    006  A w C       15-1 17-1
EA  24   02   02    0.6162 0.5615 0.5086 Hamilton                  017  C 3         10-2 12-5
EA  24   03   07    0.6060 0.5851 0.5205 St. Lawrence              042  A w C       11-4 13-4
EA  90   04   05    0.5973 0.5658 0.5355 Rochester                 046  C 19        13-5 13-5
EA  21   05   06    0.5928 0.5557 0.5456 Rochester Tech            052  C 24        10-4 13-4
EA  21   06   03    0.5749 0.5123 0.5418 St. John Fisher           060  C 31        11-4 14-4
EA  90   07   04    0.5773 0.5441 0.5336 New York University       067  C 36        11-5 13-5
EA  23   08   08    0.5678 0.5449 0.5345 Oneonta State             080  A           11-6 13-7

Here's an explanation about them (from pabegg the creator) for those who don't know:

"For those of you who are new or need a refresh, these are my estimates of what the regional rankings would be if they were run this week. These reflect only the winning percentage and strength of schedule components of the rankings, not the head-to-head, common opponents, and record versus ranked components of the rankings; history shows that this ranking process is a pretty good approximation and a good starting point for discussion.
I've ranked three more schools per region than will appear in the official rankings, to try to give an idea of who's close.)"

So, it looks like Fisher may not only behind the top two teams in the E8, but also UofR, who they beat, but and two teams from the Liberty League. I will give the Cardinals props for edging NYU and Oneonta State.

Didn't Oneonta State lose to Hartwick? Yes, but then again, so did Fisher.

[UCgrad45]

Once I saw my karma go down two points without posting in two days, I knew UCgrad must be back. Alas, I was correct. Nothing like the usual dip in karma after an IC victory over Utica. My favorite part is that he waited the requisite 24 hours and then came back and smited me again. I'll just take that as a compliment from you and a concession that your Pios can't hang with the Bombers this year. Surprised the refs weren't at fault for this one, though I did enjoy the expected, albeit implicit, "Utica lost this one more than Ithaca won it" jab in the form of your "we lost because we couldn't hit FT's" statement. No hard feelings.

Don't flatter yourself junior, twasn't me. I was actually considering giving you plus karma for some good posts.  However, this time it was me.

And how is stating that if they had made their FT's, they would have had the lead with a minute left not true? At that point they had missed 8, of which 3 were front end of 1 and 1s and were down 7. That would be something that is called a "fact".



And while Ithaca did look real good in the first half, let's not pretend like they didn't only hit 4 FG's in the last 10:43 of the game. They will have a tough time in the second round of the conference tournament and 2nd round of NCAA's if they don't have better legs than that. Considering that this was their first time having back to back games since November, it is something that should be a concern to them. Imagine how their legs would have been if they had played a real team the night before?

They brought a lot of energy, and played a great game for 30 minutes. Then they did a great job of going 14-14 from the line to end the game. Got a tough conference win. That doesn't mean that UC didn't hurt themselves.

[gobombers15]

UCgrad, to say they had 4 FG's in the last 10 1/2 minutes is misleading, to say the least:

1) They made five FG's. Burton at 10:22, Leahy at 8:27, Cruz at 7:17, Brown at 5:30, Brown at 1:52. So, really nothing that extraordinary from the 10:30 mark to the 5:30 mark. That other four minute span, IC was setting up camp at the FT line.

2) IC went 17-18 from the FT line during that span. Tough to score FG's when you're making a constant procession to the FT line, don't you think? By the way, UC has to know better than to let Burton and Rogers take 14 of those FT's. You can't foul 92% and 88% foul shooters, respectively.

3) Ithaca scored 27 pts in the last 10:22. So it's not exactly like Utica put the clamps on them. That's over a 100 point pace for a 40 minute game.

Look, I thought Utica was going to win the game. That's documented. I thought Ithaca was ripe for the upset. The game had all the makings: Fisher looming on Tuesday, IC's poor track record in Utica, etc. Maybe it was a hangover from the tough RIT loss, but Utica lost that game in the first 10 mins of the game and the last 2 1/2 mins of the first half.

[magicman]

Ithaca finally cracks the top 10 checking in at the #9 spot in this week's D3 Hoops Top 25. Fisher takes a tumble falling all the way to a tie for #33. Back on the 19th of Jan. I stated that today's matchup could feature a Top 10 Ithaca taking on a # 20"s something Fisher if they both kept their winning streaks alive. I said at the time that Ithaca would keep winning and Fisher could have problems with Naz or Stevens. If the Cardinals had only dropped 1 game this past weekend they probably would have held onto the 24th or 25th spot, but that Hartwick loss was a killer. Don't think they'll see the top 25 again this year. Assuming Bostic plays, the Bombers win at Fisher tonight 78-70.

[UCgrad45]

UCgrad, to say they had 4 FG's in the last 10 1/2 minutes is misleading, to say the least:

1) They made five FG's. Burton at 10:22, Leahy at 8:27, Cruz at 7:17, Brown at 5:30, Brown at 1:52. So, really nothing that extraordinary from the 10:30 mark to the 5:30 mark. That other four minute span, IC was setting up camp at the FT line.

2) IC went 17-18 from the FT line during that span. Tough to score FG's when you're making a constant procession to the FT line, don't you think? By the way, UC has to know better than to let Burton and Rogers take 14 of those FT's. You can't foul 92% and 88% foul shooters, respectively.

3) Ithaca scored 27 pts in the last 10:22. So it's not exactly like Utica put the clamps on them. That's over a 100 point pace for a 40 minute game.

Look, I thought Utica was going to win the game. That's documented. I thought Ithaca was ripe for the upset. The game had all the makings: Fisher looming on Tuesday, IC's poor track record in Utica, etc. Maybe it was a hangover from the tough RIT loss, but Utica lost that game in the first 10 mins of the game and the last 2 1/2 mins of the first half.

1. Yes, 5 in nearly 11 minutes is a huge discrepancy from 4. Very misleading.

2.  UC started fouling with less than 2 minutes left. They had about 10 of those in the last minute, including the ridiculous Technical that wasn't and the subsequent immediate fouls to stop the clock afterwards. They took plenty of shots in that time period from 11 minutes on, they just didn't go in. Considering that UC outscored them from the floor by 12 that half, it isn't a stretch to say that they did not play as well the second half. The lead was down to 3 points at one point, and the game was within reach with a little over a minute left. You can deny that they slowed down all you want, but the fact remains, they did.

3. LOL, tough to put the clamps on 14 of those 27 when they were from clock saving fouls and a BS tech.


And your Karma was lower long before my 24 hours was up this morning. Could it be that maybe your attempt to call me out was premature? It appears someone else isn't a fan. I'm shocked.

[UCgrad45]

Maybe it was a hangover from the tough RIT loss, but Utica lost that game in the first 10 mins of the game and the last 2 1/2 mins of the first half.

By your "logic", this is your subtle shot at Ithaca, suggesting that UC lost it more than they won it.

[gobombers15]

1) I didn't say four relative to five was misleading (though still incorrect, nonetheless). I said your overall point, namely that Ithaca wasn't doing much offensively down the stretch as evidenced by "only" four (five, actually) FG's, was misleading. I think I've adequately established this. As I said, it's tough to score FG's when the whistle has blown and you're walking to the FT line.

2) Trahms kid got the tech because he started jawing at Burton early in the second half. Right before an inbounds play with about 14 mins left you can see the officials say something to both of them. Then, the kid gets a tech late in the game from the same ref who warned him earlier. The logical inference is that the kid didn't heed the ref's earlier advice to shut his mouth. This is surprising to you?

3) "Considering UC outscored them by 12 from the floor that half..." Great stat. Except not at all. Unfortunately for you and your Pios, FT's count for points in college basketball, too. Ithaca shoots a lot of them because they beat their opponents' defense and that is the predictable outcome. And the teams tied at 41 in the 2nd half, that's what matters. You don't think if you offered Jim Mullins and the Bombers a 41-41 tie in the 2nd half when they went to the locker room up 13, on the road and without their 2nd best player, that they wouldn't have taken that in a heartbeat? Please. So you keep thinking about your "outscored them by 12 from the floor in the 2nd half" stat when you put your head on the pillow. Little victories, I guess.

4) Utica never got closer than 5, and that was with 3:09 left and the ball in Ithaca's hands. If you'd give me IC up 5 with possession and 3 minutes left, I'll take that EVERY time. With arguably the best player in the league making all the decisions and two of the best FT shooters in the conference, I like my chances. Besides, it's one thing to cut a 13-15 point lead to 5 or 6, it's a completely different thing to tie it or get over the hump and take the lead, especially when the team you're rallying against is #11 in the country. I thought this was a fairly comfortable road win given the circumstances.

Maybe it was a hangover from the tough RIT loss, but Utica lost that game in the first 10 mins of the game and the last 2 1/2 mins of the first half.

By your "logic", this is your subtle shot at Ithaca, suggesting that UC lost it more than they won it.

Uhhh, what? Not a shot at Ithaca at all. Utica played poorly during those two stages. A team like Utica has next to zero margin of error against the Bombers. Ithaca played well during the portion, too, and Utica couldn't weather the storm. Cruz hit a lot of big shots and Utica didn't have an answer for him on Saturday. I don't see how that was a shot at Ithaca, at all. The Bombers didn't play their best game, but Ithaca won a road game by double-digits without Bostic. I'm not complaining, trust me.

Secondly, I was referring more to your incessant propensity to take knocks at the teams who beat Utica (see Naz game last year, among others). You usually find someone to blame (refs), followed by some variation of "the better team didn't win today." I don't need to prove that to others, those who've been around long enough to know your antics know that I'm right.

[FROMAFAR]

Listen guys, IC beat UTICA, I don't care what the reason...UC lost it or IC won it........ I will also state, that the only way a team from the e-8 get's an at large is if IC loses the e-8 tourney. IC will get an at large...Fisher will not get an at large, and MAYYYYBEE RIT gets one if they lose the championship game to IC. Now I know a lot can happen to change that between now and then like Fisher somehow running off a string of wins, BUT I don't know if it was looking ahead to IC or not, but Hartwick and Stevens both beat them.  NAZ and Stevens both have a flicker of hope, BUT Stevens has to beat UC at homw and pick off IC or RIT at their place.... while not tripping to Hartwick, Alfred and Elmira..... which I think Hartwick may do.....but what do I know.....

[Bombers798891]

1) I didn't say four relative to five was misleading (though still incorrect, nonetheless). I said your overall point, namely that Ithaca wasn't doing much offensively down the stretch as evidenced by "only" four (five, actually) FG's, was misleading. I think I've adequately established this. As I said, it's tough to score FG's when the whistle has blown and you're walking to the FT line.

2) Trahms kid got the tech because he started jawing at Burton early in the second half. Right before an inbounds play with about 14 mins left you can see the officials say something to both of them. Then, the kid gets a tech late in the game from the same ref who warned him earlier. The logical inference is that the kid didn't heed the ref's earlier advice to shut his mouth. This is surprising to you?

3) "Considering UC outscored them by 12 from the floor that half..." Great stat. Except not at all. Unfortunately for you and your Pios, FT's count for points in college basketball, too. Ithaca shoots a lot of them because they beat their opponents' defense and that is the predictable outcome. And the teams tied at 41 in the 2nd half, that's what matters. You don't think if you offered Jim Mullins and the Bombers a 41-41 tie in the 2nd half when they went to the locker room up 13, on the road and without their 2nd best player, that they wouldn't have taken that in a heartbeat? Please. So you keep thinking about your "outscored them by 12 from the floor in the 2nd half" stat when you put your head on the pillow. Little victories, I guess.

4) Utica never got closer than 5, and that was with 3:09 left and the ball in Ithaca's hands. If you'd give me IC up 5 with possession and 3 minutes left, I'll take that EVERY time. With arguably the best player in the league making all the decisions and two of the best FT shooters in the conference, I like my chances. Besides, it's one thing to cut a 13-15 point lead to 5 or 6, it's a completely different thing to tie it or get over the hump and take the lead, especially when the team you're rallying against is #11 in the country. I thought this was a fairly comfortable road win given the circumstances.

Maybe it was a hangover from the tough RIT loss, but Utica lost that game in the first 10 mins of the game and the last 2 1/2 mins of the first half.

By your "logic", this is your subtle shot at Ithaca, suggesting that UC lost it more than they won it.

Uhhh, what? Not a shot at Ithaca at all. Utica played poorly during those two stages. A team like Utica has next to zero margin of error against the Bombers. Ithaca played well during the portion, too, and Utica couldn't weather the storm. Cruz hit a lot of big shots and Utica didn't have an answer for him on Saturday. I don't see how that was a shot at Ithaca, at all. The Bombers didn't play their best game, but Ithaca won a road game by double-digits without Bostic. I'm not complaining, trust me.

Secondly, I was referring more to your incessant propensity to take knocks at the teams who beat Utica (see Naz game last year, among others). You usually find someone to blame (refs), followed by some variation of "the better team didn't win today." I don't need to prove that to others, those who've been around long enough to know your antics know that I'm right.

1. Ithaca did not shoot well over the last 12-13 minutes of the game. Thankfully, they did shoot well over the first 27-28 minutes of the game so who cares? A win is a win

2. If Utica shuts down a team from the floor for 13 minutes, is playing at home and the other team is missing one of their top players and Utica still loses by double digits, that pretty much answers the better team question. Good teams win games even when they're shorthanded, on the road and struggling. Mediocre teams fail to beat shorthanded, struggling teams in their own gym. Guess which team Utica is? Utica's going to have a tough time even making the conference tournament if they can't take advantage of opportunities like that.

[FROMAFAR]

If UC loses to Stevens then NAZ and Stevens have a life....... If UC beats Stevens then I believe Stevens is done, they may be done anyway as they play RIT and IC on the road, unless they can beat one, not likely... that should do it because they would have lost to bot NAZ and UC twice... they have to have a better record then both... tie breaker kills them. IF they tie UC and have split with them, it comes down to record against teams in decending order, which could play well for Stevens since they have to beat either IC or RIT to probably get to that point, and UC may not........Too early still, each team just has to take care of business. I'm getting more dizzy than I already am....but what do I know      

[Bombers798891]

Quick update for Bomber and Cardinal fans:

Jeff Bostic is a game-time decision for Ithaca tonight. He sprained an ankle in practice on Thursday.