Empire 8

[sjfcards]

A HUGE win for Fisher tonight over RIT. Fisher absolutely needed a win to get off the schnide. I was really starting to get worried about the E8 tournament, and they still have lots of work to do, but beating RIT really gives them a leg up on the two other teams pulling for those last two spots.

[gobombers15]

If Fisher and Utica finished tied at 9-7, tonight's win all but clinches the tiebreaker in Fisher's favor. Either Fisher will have swept Utica or Fisher will win the tiebreaker of record vs top teams in descending order.

Ithaca clinches an E8 Tourney berth tonight.

[Bombers798891]

St. John Fisher up 33-32 over RIT at the half,  breaks the game wide open with a 23-3 run to open the 2nd period and coasts to a 72-51 win. Much needed win for the Cardinals and could put a stop to all the Ithaca- RIT tiebreaker talk. 

Fisher was led by Ozell Franklin who topped all scorers with 20 pts along with 7 rebounds. Connor Henderson added 16 pts and Jordan Gettings chipped in with 16. RIT was led by Mark Carson with a double double of 16 pts and 15 boards.

While it puts an end to the tiebreaker talk, RIT still controls their own destiny for the conference, as a win over Ithaca. In fact, they could lose again and STILL control their own destiny. It does give Ithaca a chance to relax a tad before the RIT game, possibly resting Bostic some more than they would have. Burton drops a pretty quiet 20-5, with nearly half his points coming from the line and four turnovers to go with his assists. But IC's depth is once again the key factor

I will say, Carson puts up a pretty quiet 16. Eight points from the line and only six shots? That's surprising given that he gathered six offensive rebounds. Maybe SJF tried to hack at him a little bit. Also, RIT's four other starters and their main backup, Lowe, go 6-40 from the floor. That's a rough night

I also wonder if this just wasn't the other shoe dropping for RIT a little. Not so much the big run in the second half, but just that they've had a big string of close conference wins

Now to be fair, in four of those 6 games, we would have been looking at OT anyway, but there's been six games they've won in which the other team had a chance to tie or win in the last 10 seconds of a game. Now, they deserve credit for winning some incredibly tight games, and I give them that. But I can't think of another scenario where a team has won that many games that late and not dropped any. The Bombers have won two, one where Stevens missed a tying three with 22 seconds to go, and one where Alfred missed a two-thirds of a court shot at the buzzer, and they lost the RIT game.

I think RIT is a good, tough, gritty team, that Carson is a monster, and that they stand a decent chance at winning the conference. But I also think that they've played a high number of close conference games, and won them all, and that's unusual for any team. Nonetheless, it should be a great game when they come to Ithaca!

Stevens is probably done for the conference tourney. Naz is ROLLING again, with six straight conference wins. Who gets the last spot? Here's one man's take:

Utica: 3 of 4 on road, although they avoid the two best teams in the conference. I think Naz pulls the win out at Utica and SJF holds court. 9-7

SJF: Get both Alfred and Elmira at home, where they are 4-1 in conference play. I like them to sweep the home games, but lose to Ithaca on the road; no shame there. 10-6 and in

Naz: Get Elmira at home, but RIT is on the road and they have to find a way to stop an Ithaca team that blew them out of the water and scored 122 points in the process. I don't think they do it, and drop that one too. But if they beat Utica, they'd also be 9-7, with a split head-to-head. However, going by the record against opponents, their win over SJF would be the difference.
So I've got

1/2 Winner of RIT/IC game
3. SJF
4. Naz

Bit of a change from my last projection, which had Utica in the last spot, but I never though Naz would be in this spot, with wins at Stevens and against SJF. I suppose it could change easily enough if Utica beats Naz again. But I like the Golden Flyers. Just one man's guess though

[UCgrad45]

With Herrings 24 tonight, I think he only needs 6 more for 1,500 career.

[FROMAFAR]

Bombers, you are right on the money, but what do I know..  The biggest game left in the season for a playoff spot is NAZ UC... the winner gets the 4 spot in my mind.... Fisher ends at 9-7 at worst.............. The winner of the Naz UC game is 9-7, the loser is at best 8-8........ Stevens is on life support, they need to run the table to get to 9-7, and lose tie breaker to NAZ, if NAZ is 9-7, they may do well in tie breaker with Fisher, since they have to win 3 road games to get to 9-7, and they have to beat RIT......TOUGH ROAD. I think UC outcoaches NAZ in that game..... 84-81 UC.......Fisher is so tough at home, and Kornaker is not going to let this team not get in... but what do I know

[FisherDynasty]

Fisher lead by a soph and two freshman (there best being hurt). This is a very young team which that will be good in the future. but this also shows how bad the region is this year.  a top team in the region getting killed by freshmen and sophmores, that would not happen in a normal year.

[buck1053]

Fisher lead by a soph and two freshman (there best being hurt). This is a very young team which that will be good in the future. but this also shows how bad the region is this year.  a top team in the region getting killed by freshmen and sophmores, that would not happen in a normal year.

I think that saying Fisher's win (being led by freshmen and sophomores) over RIT shows how bad the region is this year is a bit of a jump. I don't think it's as strong as it has been, but the game was between two E8 teams. Wouldn't it a more logical conclusion to say that Fisher's win shows how bad the E8 is this year?

[bamm]

Wouldn't it a more logical conclusion to say that Fisher's win shows how bad the E8 is this year?

buck, I thought you were doing real well right up to this sentence.

Bombers, I think, gives a pretty fair assessment of RIT.  Their young players are a nice surprise and the team can certainly beat anyone in the region, but 11-0 in conference was probably a bit overperforming.

To try and use last night's game as an explanation for an entire season doesn't work no matter who or what you're talking about.

Take a shot with "that gym has been a house of horrors for the Tigers over the years" and you'd be getting somewhere. 

[Bombers798891]

Wouldn't it a more logical conclusion to say that Fisher's win shows how bad the E8 is this year?

buck, I thought you were doing real well right up to this sentence.

Bombers, I think, gives a pretty fair assessment of RIT.  Their young players are a nice surprise and the team can certainly beat anyone in the region, but 11-0 in conference was probably a bit overperforming.

To try and use last night's game as an explanation for an entire season doesn't work no matter who or what you're talking about.

Take a shot with "that gym has been a house of horrors for the Tigers over the years" and you'd be getting somewhere. 

Well, the thing is, I think RIT has overachieved a bit, and so have IC and SJF. That's the toughest thing about the E8 right now. All three of those teams are probably not quite as good as their record indicates.

[FisherDynasty]

Not really Buck seeing as how the e8 is stronger than the Sunyac and probably the LL this year from top to bottom. The e8 is down for sure but so arnt all other conferences by a long shot as well besides maybe the LL since it has only had 2 good teams past few years.

Bombers, I agree with your pt 100%, however, Ithaca beat SLU best team besides maybe hamilton in the LL and sunyac is out of question since utica beat oswego the top team there.

[gobombers15]

I think it's kinda odd that we're discussing a "down year" for the E8 when its top team is ranked #8 in the COUNTRY right now and is an incorrectly ruled shot away from possibly still being undefeated, yet was in 2nd place in its own conference for the last three weeks. I mean, are we going to say that the conference was better top-to-bottom when Fisher was running things for a few years there? No way, not even a comparison. Back then, you only had to worry about the top four teams (Fisher, Utica, Ithaca, RIT) and maybe a road game against Alfred during the Stein/Clemmensen years. That's it. Everything else was tantamount to an automatic win, especially during Naz's rebuilding years.

Now, there is much more parity. Even the bottom-feeders (Elmira, Alfred, Hartwick) have a pulse, a far cry from the days when Elmira and Hartwick would only win when they played each other. Utica, Fisher and Naz are no worse than those inconsistent Ithaca and RIT squads who would round out the E8 Tourney. And now, unlike before, there is some real competition for those last two E8 Tourney spots. In the past, we knew who the four teams would be for awhile leading into the Tourney.

If you want to argue that this Ithaca team isn't as good as those powerful Fisher teams, maybe that's true and maybe its not, but I'm not going to spend pages arguing that. And I'm not going to haggle over this year's RIT team versus those Utica teams. If you want to say the spread between the top of the conference and middle of the conference is narrower than in the past, fine. Just don't confuse greater parity with mediocrity. And don't tell me that, overall, this year's league is down relative to past years. It's not even close.

(And if you want to get into a numerical argument, I'll more than oblige. I decided to save you all the time. But if we want to go there, we can.)

[RITFAN]

I cannot speak to Empire 8 teams of yore.  However I do know the this year's E8 has the NATION'S leading rebounder (Carson) and 2 Academic All-District First Team Members (Bostic and Carson).

[Bombers798891]

I think it's kinda odd that we're discussing a "down year" for the E8 when its top team is ranked #8 in the COUNTRY right now and is an incorrectly ruled shot away from possibly still being undefeated, yet was in 2nd place in its own conference for the last three weeks. I mean, are we going to say that the conference was better top-to-bottom when Fisher was running things for a few years there? No way, not even a comparison. Back then, you only had to worry about the top four teams (Fisher, Utica, Ithaca, RIT) and maybe a road game against Alfred during the Stein/Clemmensen years. That's it. Everything else was tantamount to an automatic win, especially during Naz's rebuilding years.

Now, there is much more parity. Even the bottom-feeders (Elmira, Alfred, Hartwick) have a pulse, a far cry from the days when Elmira and Hartwick would only win when they played each other. Utica, Fisher and Naz are no worse than those inconsistent Ithaca and RIT squads who would round out the E8 Tourney. And now, unlike before, there is some real competition for those last two E8 Tourney spots. In the past, we knew who the four teams would be for awhile leading into the Tourney.

If you want to argue that this Ithaca team isn't as good as those powerful Fisher teams, maybe that's true and maybe its not, but I'm not going to spend pages arguing that. And I'm not going to haggle over this year's RIT team versus those Utica teams. If you want to say the spread between the top of the conference and middle of the conference is narrower than in the past, fine. Just don't confuse greater parity with mediocrity. And don't tell me that, overall, this year's league is down relative to past years. It's not even close.

(And if you want to get into a numerical argument, I'll more than oblige. I decided to save you all the time. But if we want to go there, we can.)

Well, I sort of disagree on part of it my friend. I love numbers, so I'll go there

Hartwick, Elmira and Alfred are 2-28 in conference play when not playing one another. They've played tough in certain games--heck, Alfred almost beat IC on the road this weekend, but that's still a pretty cruddy record any way you slice it. Maybe teams can't sleepwalk through games anymore, but they're not coming through with victories, so to me, the bottom of the conference isn't real strong.

As for the top...

I posted my thoughts on RIT before. I'm not sure they're an elite level team. That 11-0 record in conference seems to be a little smoke and mirrors to me. Too many games won in the final seconds with no losses.

As for IC, they're very good, but I don't think they're one of the eight best teams in D-III, which is what their record and ranking indicate.  As you said, they could very easily be undefeated if the call in the RIT is made correctly, and that would put them where? 5th? Are they THAT good?

To me, there are two things they do at an elite level: Free throw shooting and holding onto the ball. They score a ton, but I think that's a reflection of their overall pace and ability to not turn it over

IC Rankings

Rebounding Margin: 76th
Shooting Percentage: 136th
3 point percentage: 164th
Shooting percentage defense: 224th
Scoring defense: 267th
3 point percentage defense: 371st

Again, I think IC is a very good team, but I think it's a little strange that for a team that scores so much, they don't shoot particularly well, and frankly, their defense isn't all that great. Some of that scoring defense can be chalked up to replacements being in the game, but the percentages are still pretty low. Obviously, they're a very talented team, especially a guy like Burton. They'll make the NCAA's, and probably win a game or two. I always feel teams in the Top 10 are teams in contention for a NC, and I can't really say that about this team.

I think your assessment of the middle of the pack is correct. Utica, SJF, Stevens and Naz are all inconsistent, and not really any different from many other teams we've seen throughout the years. But I don't think there's a lot of strength at the bottom of the conference, and I think the top teams are overachieving a bit.

Also, regarding that "Nation's leading" rebounder, I remember when Stephanie Cleary of IC had more steals than anyone else in all of college basketball, men included. I'm not sure what that really signified then, and I don't know what Carson's stat signifies now. Is it saying Carson is the "best" rebounder in the country? Grotberg leads the NCAA in scoring, but he's not the best scorer in the country. You can't just compare numbers across divisions without any context. Stick someone like Blake Griffin or Curry in D3 and they'd top those numbers.

[FisherDynasty]

I hear your point gobombers for sure. I guess its down bc the 2-8 teams are worst then then 2-4 teams back then.  Nothing against ithaca they cant help it. It is just my opinion.  I think Ithaca, UofR, and possibly Hamilton/SLU are the only teams that can do damage in the ncaa tourny.  I think Ithaca out of the e8 has the best shot and will be routing for them.  It just seems like such an off year with all of the losses and reading post from all the leagues on how down they are this year. Your typical year in and year out teams (Potsdam, Platts, Uofr, Fisher, NYU, can even put RIT in there) of the region lost a lot of talent all at the same time and are in rebuilding years.  Hamilton and SLU are around where they usually are.  The other teams who I thought were going to be good Oswego, Geneseo, Naz all are down vs expectations. Really the only team that held up to them is Ithaca. 

Theres no question theres more parity 1-9 in the e8 but that doesnt necessarily make it a better league overall.

[gobombers15]

Bombers, re: bottom of the conference, the underlying point is that those bottom teams are still very competitive relative to those years when Fisher was dominating. While I'm aware that there are no moral victories, I can say with utter certainty, and without looking, that a few years ago those teams couldn't even sniff the top two or three teams. Now, Alfred can challenge Ithaca and Hartwick can beat Fisher. There are other examples, too.

Overall, I don't think the conference is "down." The top may not be as strong, but the middle and bottom are better, in my opinion. That's what parity does. I like not knowing who will win an Alfred/Fisher game. That just wouldn't happen those other years.

Ithaca may not be great statistically, but they win and usually do so by a lot of points. Picking them apart kinda seems like everyone nitpicking Memphis in past years. Everyone said Memphis didn't shoot the 3 well enough, or didn't shoot FT's well enough, etc. But what they did do was beat teams to a pulp...somehow. And they were a miraculous shot by Chalmers away from winning the National Championship. I don't think Ithaca has the same talent level, obviously, but the point is that you don't have to be well-rounded or good at everything, just be very good at one or two things. Ithaca is great at the line, an underappreciated trait in modern basketball (ask 'Cuse) and has that uncanny intangible ability to kick it up a gear when they have to. I think the Sweet 16 is very possible and that's exactly where the undefeated Fisher team ended up, too.