Empire 8

[Bombers798891]

Bombers, re: bottom of the conference, the underlying point is that those bottom teams are still very competitive relative to those years when Fisher was dominating. While I'm aware that there are no moral victories, I can say with utter certainty, and without looking, that a few years ago those teams couldn't even sniff the top two or three teams. Now, Alfred can challenge Ithaca and Hartwick can beat Fisher. There are other examples, too.

Overall, I don't think the conference is "down." The top may not be as strong, but the middle and bottom are better, in my opinion. That's what parity does. I like not knowing who will win an Alfred/Fisher game. That just wouldn't happen those other years.

Ithaca may not be great statistically, but they win and usually do so by a lot of points. Picking them apart kinda seems like everyone nitpicking Memphis in past years. Everyone said Memphis didn't shoot the 3 well enough, or didn't shoot FT's well enough, etc. But what they did do was beat teams to a pulp...somehow. And they were a miraculous shot by Chalmers away from winning the National Championship. I don't think Ithaca has the same talent level, obviously, but the point is that you don't have to be well-rounded or good at everything, just be very good at one or two things. Ithaca is great at the line, an underappreciated trait in modern basketball (ask 'Cuse) and has that uncanny intangible ability to kick it up a gear when they have to. I think the Sweet 16 is very possible and that's exactly where the undefeated Fisher team ended up, too.

I agree that they don't need to do "everything" well, but I would consider shooting, defense and rebounding to be three pretty key areas to not stand out in. Do they need to excel at all three? Of course not. But they don't excel at any of them. Free throws are a great thing to be able to hit, and you're right that they are underrated, but you have to get to the line, and there's no guarantee you're going to be able to do that every game.

Actually, I think you sort of made my point for me. This IC team is a blown call away from being undefeated and you call the Sweet 16 "very possible." Normally, I'd think that a team that frankly, has a pretty good chance of being 26-1 heading into the NCAA's, would be able to aspire to something beyond a "possible" Sweet 16 berth. But I agree with that. I think that's more a reflection of where they lie. Somewhere in that 12-18 range. In a weird way, I think it may help them to lose a game. I worry that if they go 26-1 heading into the tournament that they'll move up another couple of spots and be at about 5, and when you get that high, the fan expectation gets to where you expect them to be in say the Final Four. And that's a lot of pressure to put on a group of kids.

Look, I'm an Ithaca fan, but I loath homers, so part of what I try to do is see things from the other side of the fence. There's really no comparison for us to go on with this team. They're the best team in school history, and that's saying something given that we still have three games to go in the regular season. But they haven't won an NCAA playoff game in something like 15 years. I think in some ways, you have to fight against your own history a bit. That's sort of the standard I'm holding the team to. I want to be proven wrong of course. I'm all for a deep NCAA run, don't get me wrong. It just takes one game at a time to convince me.

[FROMAFAR]

Looking at the conference teams individually, and at the cost of sounding obvious, IC, RIT and UC as having an UP year. Fisher in the mix even though young, so I will say overachieving based on expectations (mine) NAZ is a little down although coming around, I think.  Alfred definitely overachieving a bit, based on expectations. Hartwick and Elmira are about the same as they have been the last few years, and Stevens is definitley down after losing Waleed, and Greco from the sweet 16 team, and Williams from the ECAC team.  In comparing to E 8 League from years past, throw out Stevens, since no history there. Look at the top 4.. IC, RIT, UC and Fisher, forget the order... has anything really changed? With regard to the region, I think that's where parody comes into play. All the top teams in the region can be beaten by teams not considered high quality teams.  So I guess what I am saying is, I don't think the E-8 is down this year, instead of Fisher being our resident NCAA team IC is and the rest are looking for a shot to pick them off in the E 8 tourney so they can go to the dance.. I do think there is more parody region wise however which will always bring the perception of strength down, for some reason. Numbers are a crutch most times. You can be the highest scoring team in the nation but if you are the worst defensivley what does the scoring mean, Ask Loyola Marymount back in the Hank Gathers days.  The only number that reallly means anything is w's.......  no matter how you get it done.......BUT what do I know    

[buck1053]

Wouldn't it a more logical conclusion to say that Fisher's win shows how bad the E8 is this year?

buck, I thought you were doing real well right up to this sentence.

Bombers, I think, gives a pretty fair assessment of RIT.  Their young players are a nice surprise and the team can certainly beat anyone in the region, but 11-0 in conference was probably a bit overperforming.

To try and use last night's game as an explanation for an entire season doesn't work no matter who or what you're talking about.

Take a shot with "that gym has been a house of horrors for the Tigers over the years" and you'd be getting somewhere. 

bamm,
My post was more to point out the illogical jump made that the region is bad when one team featuring freshmen and sophomores beat another more veteran team. Since they are from the same league, I don't see how that speaks to the whole region. My point -- in that last sentence -- was only that if you are deriving a conclusion from that game, it would be more logical to draw one about the E8 as opposed to the whole region.

For the record, the E8 is definitely better this year than the LL and SUNYAC.

[FisherDynasty]

I think Ithaca has a very good chance to make it to the sweet 16, i think they will even host until the final 4 if they make it that far.   But I can't change my mind on the overall region being down.  Look at the top 8 in our polls,

East Region Fan Poll #7 (through 2/8/09)

1   Ithaca ( 10 )    20-1           Normal #1 team
2   St. Lawrence   16-4           Sold #2
3   RIT                   16-4           Now has 5 losses and overall is down from past years in my opinion talent
4   Rochester           15-5           Down from past years
5   Hamilton           14-5           This could be standard #5 so same
6   Geneseo State   14-6           Solid (2 top sunyac teams WAY down from past years
7   Oswego State   13-7           Solid (some bad losses though)
8   St. John Fisher   14-6           Down from past years

No NYU which is usually up there as well. Point being besides ithaca and the LL teams, the other 5 spots are much weaker than in normal years.  the #2 team in the e8 is much worse than both #2 and 3 maybe even 4 teams in past years.    LL has 2 solid teams as usual so ill say the same.  Sunyac is WAY DOWN, the best team this year would probably be #3 or #4 in typical years.  and UAA teams of UofR and NYU are dwn vs prior years.  Therefore overall the REGION is weaker. I agree with you Buck that e8 is better than LL and sunyac this year and the uaa team in the region as proven during interconf games and overall records.

[Cyclone0205]

I have to agree with Fisher on this one.  If you look at the national scene and think back to recent years, you were looking at at least 3 teams from the region being top 25 or close for a majority of the season.  I can remember when seeing Fisher, Rochester, NYU in the top 25 or at worst tops of "Others receiving Votes" was standard.  And though the records of some of these teams look nice, I think if you were to take any of these teams and book them with Old Fisher, Rochester from either the Hauben days or the past 3 seasons, and the Boone/DeCorso NYU teams, only Ithaca would remain in that top hunt.  The 2008-2009 versions of St. Lawrence, RIT, Rochester, and Hamilton would all be looking at 20+ point losses.

[Ethelred the Unready]

I think Ithaca has a very good chance to make it to the sweet 16, i think they will even host until the final 4 if they make it that far.   But I can't change my mind on the overall region being down.  Look at the top 8 in our polls,

East Region Fan Poll #7 (through 2/8/09)

1   Ithaca ( 10 )    20-1           Normal #1 team
2   St. Lawrence   16-4           Sold #2
3   RIT                   16-4           Now has 5 losses and overall is down from past years in my opinion talent
4   Rochester           15-5           Down from past years
5   Hamilton           14-5           This could be standard #5 so same
6   Geneseo State   14-6           Solid (2 top sunyac teams WAY down from past years
7   Oswego State   13-7           Solid (some bad losses though)
8   St. John Fisher   14-6           Down from past years

No NYU which is usually up there as well. Point being besides ithaca and the LL teams, the other 5 spots are much weaker than in normal years.  the #2 team in the e8 is much worse than both #2 and 3 maybe even 4 teams in past years.    LL has 2 solid teams as usual so ill say the same.  Sunyac is WAY DOWN, the best team this year would probably be #3 or #4 in typical years.  and UAA teams of UofR and NYU are dwn vs prior years.  Therefore overall the REGION is weaker. I agree with you Buck that e8 is better than LL and sunyac this year and the uaa team in the region as proven during interconf games and overall records.

Two quick things.  Hamilton has been HAMMERED by every good team they have played this year.  Anderson was smart to schedule his tough games out of region so they don't have an impact on their regional standing, but I'm not convinced Hamilton is that good of a team.  Second, if UR wins both games this weekend they will have exactly the same record as last year.  Will they do it?  Hope so but it won't be easy.  Like Fisher, UR is very young and injured.  Obviously not the same caliber team, but they are getting the job done.

[gobombers15]

Nobody is making the argument that the East Region is not down this year. It's down because of the conspicuous absence of any SUNYAC powerhouse when, in recent years, that conference has had some excellent teams in Plattsburgh, Brockport and Potsdam. Also, Hamilton is "down" relative to the middle years of this decade, but I wouldn't sell short St. Lawrence.

FD, where I am going to disagree with you is that the conference is "down" this year. As I've said before, I think you're confusing a narrowing of the gap between the top and bottom teams with the conference somehow not being as good. I don't know how you can definitively say that those Utica teams were better than this RIT team, especially given that those Utica teams would always split with .500 RIT teams. RIT has a good shot at going 15-1 or 14-2 in the conference this year; Utica was never better than 11-3 in the conference. Sure, Utica had Cichon and Bryant, but Carson isn't exactly puppy chow out there (and imagine what his numbers could be if he was given three more years to get stronger/faster and play against this competition at age 25 and 26 like Bryant did).  Again, I don't want to get into a comparison of 2006 Utica vs 2009 RIT because I think it's a fruitless endeavor that will lead to much animosity and no answers. But I'm just not buying what you're selling, namely that the conference is going through a "down year" this season.

[FROMAFAR]

Dynasty, I admit I am not as well educated on the other conferences as you guys, but just because the records are not as dominant couldn't that be because of parody.... If everyone is a little better they will beat each other. Look at the Big East..... Probably best D 1 conference in country...Teams with 5 - 6 even 7 losses are good, but there certainly is Parody and as someone said earlier it's like when Alfred plays IC we are not so sure who will win, that doesn't make IC weak in my mind...It just means the teams with lesser records MAY not bethat bad....

[Ethelred the Unready]

Nobody is making the argument that the East Region is not down this year. It's down because of the conspicuous absence of any SUNYAC powerhouse when, in recent years, that conference has had some excellent teams in Plattsburgh, Brockport and Potsdam. Also, Hamilton is "down" relative to the middle years of this decade, but I wouldn't sell short St. Lawrence.

FD, where I am going to disagree with you is that the conference is "down" this year. As I've said before, I think you're confusing a narrowing of the gap between the top and bottom teams with the conference somehow not being as good. I don't know how you can definitively say that those Utica teams were better than this RIT team, especially given that those Utica teams would always split with .500 RIT teams. RIT has a good shot at going 15-1 or 14-2 in the conference this year; Utica was never better than 11-3 in the conference. Sure, Utica had Cichon and Bryant, but Carson isn't exactly puppy chow out there (and imagine what his numbers could be if he was given three more years to get stronger/faster and play against this competition at age 25 and 26 like Bryant did).  Again, I don't want to get into a comparison of 2006 Utica vs 2009 RIT because I think it's a fruitless endeavor that will lead to much animosity and no answers. But I'm just not buying what you're selling, namely that the conference is going through a "down year" this season.

I don't know how old Carson is but he looks 32.

[FisherDynasty]

Great points Ethelred and Cyclone.  Gobombers, I definately here your point I guess we just have different views. In my opinion when judging a conference as good, you judge based on how good the top teams are vs the other leagues.  Does a conference with 1 good team and 8 just above par teams look better or a conference with 3-4 good teams, 2 par teams, and 3-4 crappy? The top teams are the ones that make the noise in the ncaa and out of region and give the leagues credibility not all of the parity at the mediocre level. 

I would agree with you if you were talking about parity between really good teams like the UW league but thats not the case here.

[Cyclone0205]

Ahh Fisher, I think you just articulated what I was thinking.  To expound (at the expense of maybe sounding repetitive), parity in the Big East is a good argument because Uconn, Louisville, Pitt are elite level teams, but Cuse, Marquette, Nova are all also very good teams.  And then the next group of Notre Dame, Cincy, Seton Hall, etc. are all dangerous teams that have quality wins and have all at some point looked like tournament teams.


In the E8, we've got a "Uconn" in Ithaca, but that's it.  The narrowing of the top and bottom in the e8 is a sign that the conference is down, because the bottom of the e8 is still not good.  The e8 is more like a Conference USA where you've got Memphis, maybe one surprise team, and then a bunch of teams that beat up on each other but all would be pounded in good conferences.


Even looking at the conference parity ratings, the E8 conference is ranked relatively high thanks to the performance of Ithaca, but they have one of the worst parity ratings of any of the conferences ranked in the top 20 [a rating based on scoring the teams comparatively based on head to heads, and how good the teams really are].

[gobombers15]

Great points Ethelred and Cyclone.  Gobombers, I definately here your point I guess we just have different views. In my opinion when judging a conference as good, you judge based on how good the top teams are vs the other leagues.  Does a conference with 1 good team and 8 just above par teams look better or a conference with 3-4 good teams, 2 par teams, and 3-4 crappy? The top teams are the ones that make the noise in the ncaa and out of region and give the leagues credibility not all of the parity at the mediocre level. 

I would agree with you if you were talking about parity between really good teams like the UW league but thats not the case here.

But when talking about the conference, as a whole, you do have to look at all teams, not just the top teams. I think the 2006 Fisher team probably beats this Ithaca team 6 of 10 games but, if you go down the line, more times than not, this year's clubs are better than the corresponding teams from those years, IMO. I agree that we'll just have to leave it at a minor disagreement.

[FROMAFAR]

OK Cyclone, I'll buy the Conference USA comparison, but the difference is no one walks into an Alfred game feeling like it's a walk in the park. So the bottom OR close to it presents a problem. That wasn't so the last few years. Those bottom 3 were gimme's. Hartwick as well is not a real easy out.... BUT I don't want beat a dead horse. The only way the E-8 gets 2 in is if IC loses the E 8 Tourney. That can happen. I think my guys lose at least 2 of the last 4 games.  Weekend predictions.......

RIT- 69
Stevens- 64

Naz- 85
Utica- 75

IC- 74
Fisher- 58

RIT- 78
Hartwick-63

Stevens- 74
Utica- 68

But what do I know      

[UCgrad45]

OK Cyclone, I'll buy the Conference USA comparison, but the difference is no one walks into an Alfred game feeling like it's a walk in the park. So the bottom OR close to it presents a problem. That wasn't so the last few years. Those bottom 3 were gimme's. Hartwick as well is not a real easy out.... BUT I don't want beat a dead horse. The only way the E-8 gets 2 in is if IC loses the E 8 Tourney. That can happen. I think my guys lose at least 2 of the last 4 games.  Weekend predictions.......

RIT- 69
Stevens- 64

Naz- 85
Utica- 75

IC- 74
Fisher- 58

RIT- 78
Hartwick-63

Stevens- 74
Utica- 68

But what do I know      

Doug Herring's senior night and only a few points away from 1500. There is no way Naz wins by 10. UC beat them at their place by 12.

I have to disagree with that one.

[UCgrad45]

gobombers,

I agree that there is more parity top to bottom in the conference this year. I just think that it is because there isn't as big as a gap talent wise between the top teams and the bottom as the top and middle teams are not as talented as the top teams were in the past. I wouldnt call it a down year for the conference either.

Not only did that Utica team have Cichon (1500 career) and Bryant (with 4 years may have had 2000 and 1000), they had Herring who ended up being a 1500 point scorer and Lucas (1000), who easily would have reached 1500 if he had not missed a season and a half of ball. They had Lighthall who is the all time leader in FG% in the conference, and a lineup of backups that would compete in this years league with Munch, Collier, Bitetto, Brown, and Fleming. You cited their record in conference, but don't forget, 3 of their 4 conference losses were to Fisher, and 4 of their 7 total. So I have to disagree with that part of your post. The RIT team this year does not have anywhere near the talent that team had. I honestly think the Ithaca teams of that time were better than this RIT team.