Empire 8

[magicman]

Ok...its 3am and I'm still wide awake so I'm gonna go ahead and stir the pot a little bit.  You have one game to win....Corey Mcadam....Sean Burton or Sean O'Brien....who do you want to run the show for your team?  Obviously I am biased but I take Mcadam... I believe that he is arguably the best player in Empire 8history and I take him over the other two in any situation....thoughts??

One thing that I feel people are failing to take into account here is the fact that I said "You have one game to win"...if this is the case, I have to take Burton out of the running from the other two.  No disrepect to him, he was a great player, but in arguably the biggest three games of his career he went 0-3 (two E-8 games and one NCAA game)  Both Mcadam and O'Brien won big games, a career record of 13-1 in Empire 8 tournament games and 6 Conference Championships.  Answering this question from the perspective of having just one game to win, I have to take Corey first, followed by O'Brien and then Burton.  Who had the better career is a totally different discussion all together.

However, in the biggest game of Corey's career, last Friday against Medaille at Plattsburgh State, in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament, this is what he did in the final 5:23 of regulation with Nazareth up by 9 points 60-51. At the 5:00 mark he had a turnover, missed a jumper at 4:27, committed a foul at 4:24, and missed a 3 pointer at 3:55. After a Medaille basket to cut the lead to 7 at 3:30 he missed a jumper at 3:05. Another Medaille basket cut the lead to 5 at 2:38 and 3 seconds later McAdam turned it over again which led to another Medaille score to cut the lead to 3 with 2:23 to go. He assisted on a Corletta jumper at 2:05 to restore the lead to 5, but Medaille scored 10 seconds later to make it a single possession game. Naz's inability to hit foul shots, going 1of 2 in 3 straight trips to the stripe, opened the door and Medaille sent it to overtime. Had McAdam been at the line they probably would have pulled the game out (he was 5x5 ft's) but he wasn't, and they didn't, so the blame is a shared thing.

Medaille opened the overtime session with a basket and Naz looked to McAdam to tie it up but he missed the shot and after a Medaille miss came down and missed again. Still down by 2 as both teams continued to misfire, McAdam grabbed a defensive rebound but had the ball stolen by Medaille's Reed that resulted in an easy layup and a four point lead that ultimately was too much for Naz to overcome. In fairness to McAdam he did score all 7 of Nazareth's overtime points but the missed shots and turnovers at  key points in regulation allowed Medaille to get back into the game and force overtime.

Go Naz, this was the ultimate one game scenario that you mentioned, NCAA game,(they don't come much bigger) plus it would be McAdam's final game in a Nazareth uniform if they lost, and even with a 9 point lead he couldn't close the deal. Sorry, no disrespect to McAdam intended he is a great player but in this big game he came up a little short. It happens. I witnessed the same thing in the game following the Naz/Medaille game when several players on the Plattsburgh State team who have made big plays all year faltered in the final minutes and it resulted in the loss to SUNYIT.

           

[bomber3]

Ok...its 3am and I'm still wide awake so I'm gonna go ahead and stir the pot a little bit.  You have one game to win....Corey Mcadam....Sean Burton or Sean O'Brien....who do you want to run the show for your team?  Obviously I am biased but I take Mcadam... I believe that he is arguably the best player in Empire 8history and I take him over the other two in any situation....thoughts??

One thing that I feel people are failing to take into account here is the fact that I said "You have one game to win"...if this is the case, I have to take Burton out of the running from the other two.  No disrepect to him, he was a great player, but in arguably the biggest three games of his career he went 0-3 (two E-8 games and one NCAA game)  Both Mcadam and O'Brien won big games, a career record of 13-1 in Empire 8 tournament games and 6 Conference Championships.  Answering this question from the perspective of having just one game to win, I have to take Corey first, followed by O'Brien and then Burton.  Who had the better career is a totally different discussion all together.

However, in the biggest game of Corey's career, last Friday against Medaille at Plattsburgh State, in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament, this is what he did in the final 5:23 of regulation with Nazareth up by 9 points 60-51. At the 5:00 mark he had a turnover, missed a jumper at 4:27, committed a foul at 4:24, and missed a 3 pointer at 3:55. After a Medaille basket to cut the lead to 7 at 3:30 he missed a jumper at 3:05. Another Medaille basket cut the lead to 5 at 2:38 and 3 seconds later McAdam turned it over again which led to another Medaille score to cut the lead to 3 with 2:23 to go. He assisted on a Corletta jumper at 2:05 to restore the lead to 5, but Medaille scored 10 seconds later to make it a single possession game. Naz's inability to hit foul shots, going 1of 2 in 3 straight trips to the stripe, opened the door and Medaille sent it to overtime. Had McAdam been at the line they probably would have pulled the game out (he was 5x5 ft's) but he wasn't, and they didn't, so the blame is a shared thing.

Medaille opened the overtime session with a basket and Naz looked to McAdam to tie it up but he missed the shot and after a Medaille miss came down and missed again. Still down by 2 as both teams continued to misfire, McAdam grabbed a defensive rebound but had the ball stolen by Medaille's Reed that resulted in an easy layup and a four point lead that ultimately was too much for Naz to overcome. In fairness to McAdam he did score all 7 of Nazareth's overtime points but the missed shots and turnovers at  key points in regulation allowed Medaille to get back into the game and force overtime.

Go Naz, this was the ultimate one game scenario that you mentioned, NCAA game,(they don't come much bigger) plus it would be McAdam's final game in a Nazareth uniform if they lost, and even with a 9 point lead he couldn't close the deal. Sorry, no disrespect to McAdam intended he is a great player but in this big game he came up a little short. It happens. I witnessed the same thing in the game following the Naz/Medaille game when several players on the Plattsburgh State team who have made big plays all year faltered in the final minutes and it resulted in the loss to SUNYIT.

           

He also missed a wide open layup with 15 seconds to go in OT that would have cut Medaille's lead to two.  He missed the shot and the game was over.  Naz was 0-2 in NCAA games with McAdam and Ithaca/Burton were 0-1 but lost in the second round to a team that advanced to the Elite Eight (and returned most of their team and is still alive in this NCAA tourney).  I know Ithaca got to the second round with a bye but they earned the bye by going 24-2 heading into the tourney. Naz lost to a team that lost in the second round BOTH games whereas Ithaca lost to a team that went deep.  I'm not justifying it because a loss is a loss no matter who its to but just pointing out...

[FisherDynasty]

guys I know theres no naz posters ever on here and fisher is the only 8 team left in the ncaa tourney but i think the PG discussion couldve waited until after the season. 

Does anyone know what happened to Koch in the Brandeis game, I am assuming he got hurt as he only had 5 minutes logged with no fouls.  That would have been a huge blow.

[FROMAFAR]

This is amazing.......... the difference between all 3 is so inconsequential.  Yes it's fun to debate but when reading everyones opinion, I find it comes down to anyone of these guys could come up big, and has come up big. Not one is that much better than the other two which would make the answer definitive...I'll bet if we think real, we can add a few more players to this list.   A poll is fun, and only represents the guys on this site.

As a side regarding Fisher. Kornicker is a good coach. No matter who they play they are always in the game. Deliberate offense. Less trips.   That's his style, BUT that style also leaves teams that they should beat big hanging around and sometimes picks them off..BUT   

[Ethelred the Unready]

guys I know theres no naz posters ever on here and fisher is the only 8 team left in the ncaa tourney but i think the PG discussion couldve waited until after the season. 

Does anyone know what happened to Koch in the Brandeis game, I am assuming he got hurt as he only had 5 minutes logged with no fouls.  That would have been a huge blow.

Good god, man!  You've invented the space/time transmorgifier!  Cuz I can't think of any other way Fisher is still in the NCAA tournament

[Bombers798891]

guys I know theres no naz posters ever on here and fisher is the only 8 team left in the ncaa tourney but i think the PG discussion couldve waited until after the season. 

Why? There can only be one discussion at a time on a message board?

[bomber3]

guys I know theres no naz posters ever on here and fisher is the only 8 team left in the ncaa tourney but i think the PG discussion couldve waited until after the season. 

Why? There can only be one discussion at a time on a message board?

I agree -- every E8 team's season is over and has been since last Friday. I believe Go Naz brought up the topic following Naz's loss and one day before Fisher's loss.

[buck1053]

Of course, they don't mention the 24 points and 6 assists he averaged in those games. I'm sure if Jeff Bostic could have done what Jeff DeHimer did in 2009 (18-for18) instead of limping around on one good ankle and Sean Leahy could have put up as many points in all three games (22) as Ryan McAdam did in the one game against IC (23) instead of firing up bricks from three-point range the Bombers might have been able to win one of those three games.

Don't have much to say about Leahy, but I saw IC play some during that season and Bostic's issues weren't really due his ankle issue -- which I believe came late in the season anyway -- but more to the fact the Bombers failed to get him involved in the offense. He should have been a dominant force, but he was maybe the 3rd option on the team, finishing 5th on the team in field goals attempted, with by far the best FG% of the top five shot takers on the team.

Bostic was 91-for-161 in FGs, with a .565 pct., averaging 10 points (6th on the team) and 10.1 rebounds a game. It is important to note he took 0 3-pointers, which helped his FG% compared to the chuckers on the team.

Comparatively, the top five scorers (by average) from that season:
Sean Burton — 198-430 FG, .460 pct.; 74-200 3FG, .370 pct.; 22.1 ppg, 7.9 apg, 3.5 rpg
Chris Cruz — 137-279 FG, .491 pct.; 48-130 3FG, .369 pct.; 13.0 ppg, 4.3 rpg
Brendan Rogers — 96-209 FG, .459 pct.; 23-74 3FG, .311 pct.; 11.4 ppg, 3.4 rpg
Sean Leahy — 118-293 FG, .403 pct.; 30-113 3FG, .265 pct.; 6.8 rpg
Jordan Marcus — 87-233 FG, .373 pct.; 63-168 3FG, .375 pct.; 1.6 rpg

So:
Bostic averaged 4.1 makes in 7.3 FG attempts in 28.8 minutes per game

Compared to:
Burton averaged averaged 7.3 makes in 15.9 FG attempts in 36.9 minutes per game
Cruz averaged 5.1 makes in 10.3 FG attempts in 23.5 minutes per game
Rogers averaged 3.6 makes in 7.7 FG attempts in 27.1 minutes per game
Leahy averaged 4.4 makes in 10.9 FG attempts 31.7 minutes per game
Marcus averaged 3.2 makes in 8.6 FG attempts in 17.2 minutes per game

IC, as has been discussed here before, has become such a run-and-gun team that they largely ignore post players. Especially last season, Burton many times would simply bring the ball up the court and fire up a shot, often not even getting into the offense.

If you're looking for a guy to win you one game, Burton is only a good option if you have him involving his teammates in the flow of the game. Dribbling down court and chucking up a shot, or passing off to a wing player so they can chuck it up is not running an offense. There is no telling what this team could have accomplished had Burton played less selfishly (I know it's hard to believe, especially since he averaged 7.9 assists per game, but watching him play showed he was quick to call his own number first). Think about what making Bostic the centerpiece of the offense would have done: Obviously, as a post player, he's going to be taking higher percentage shots and his athleticism would have made him a terrifically difficult matchup. If he gets the ball and scores a few in a row down low, the defense is going to start collapsing and you are going to have wing defenders cheating in to help out. That's when he kicks it out to the snipers behind the arc for wide open looks.

Instead, Burton would come down and fire one up, or pass off to a shooter who would fire one up, producing longer, unpredictable rebounds on misses easily scooped up by defenders. And, as the season wore on, teams could look at the tape and key in on Ithaca's lack of post game to their advantage, because the Bombers didn't adjust well.

Don't get me wrong, Burton was a fantastic player with a tremendous career, but a little tighter reins on him might have produced more than just E8 and NCAA tournament appearances. There would assuredly have been some wins.

[bomber3]

Of course, they don't mention the 24 points and 6 assists he averaged in those games. I'm sure if Jeff Bostic could have done what Jeff DeHimer did in 2009 (18-for18) instead of limping around on one good ankle and Sean Leahy could have put up as many points in all three games (22) as Ryan McAdam did in the one game against IC (23) instead of firing up bricks from three-point range the Bombers might have been able to win one of those three games.

Don't have much to say about Leahy, but I saw IC play some during that season and Bostic's issues weren't really due his ankle issue -- which I believe came late in the season anyway -- but more to the fact the Bombers failed to get him involved in the offense. He should have been a dominant force, but he was maybe the 3rd option on the team, finishing 5th on the team in field goals attempted, with by far the best FG% of the top five shot takers on the team.

Bostic was 91-for-161 in FGs, with a .565 pct., averaging 10 points (6th on the team) and 10.1 rebounds a game. It is important to note he took 0 3-pointers, which helped his FG% compared to the chuckers on the team.

Comparatively, the top five scorers (by average) from that season:
Sean Burton — 198-430 FG, .460 pct.; 74-200 3FG, .370 pct.; 22.1 ppg, 7.9 apg, 3.5 rpg
Chris Cruz — 137-279 FG, .491 pct.; 48-130 3FG, .369 pct.; 13.0 ppg, 4.3 rpg
Brendan Rogers — 96-209 FG, .459 pct.; 23-74 3FG, .311 pct.; 11.4 ppg, 3.4 rpg
Sean Leahy — 118-293 FG, .403 pct.; 30-113 3FG, .265 pct.; 6.8 rpg
Jordan Marcus — 87-233 FG, .373 pct.; 63-168 3FG, .375 pct.; 1.6 rpg

So:
Bostic averaged 4.1 makes in 7.3 FG attempts in 28.8 minutes per game

Compared to:
Burton averaged averaged 7.3 makes in 15.9 FG attempts in 36.9 minutes per game
Cruz averaged 5.1 makes in 10.3 FG attempts in 23.5 minutes per game
Rogers averaged 3.6 makes in 7.7 FG attempts in 27.1 minutes per game
Leahy averaged 4.4 makes in 10.9 FG attempts 31.7 minutes per game
Marcus averaged 3.2 makes in 8.6 FG attempts in 17.2 minutes per game

IC, as has been discussed here before, has become such a run-and-gun team that they largely ignore post players. Especially last season, Burton many times would simply bring the ball up the court and fire up a shot, often not even getting into the offense.

If you're looking for a guy to win you one game, Burton is only a good option if you have him involving his teammates in the flow of the game. Dribbling down court and chucking up a shot, or passing off to a wing player so they can chuck it up is not running an offense. There is no telling what this team could have accomplished had Burton played less selfishly (I know it's hard to believe, especially since he averaged 7.9 assists per game, but watching him play showed he was quick to call his own number first). Think about what making Bostic the centerpiece of the offense would have done: Obviously, as a post player, he's going to be taking higher percentage shots and his athleticism would have made him a terrifically difficult matchup. If he gets the ball and scores a few in a row down low, the defense is going to start collapsing and you are going to have wing defenders cheating in to help out. That's when he kicks it out to the snipers behind the arc for wide open looks.

Instead, Burton would come down and fire one up, or pass off to a shooter who would fire one up, producing longer, unpredictable rebounds on misses easily scooped up by defenders. And, as the season wore on, teams could look at the tape and key in on Ithaca's lack of post game to their advantage, because the Bombers didn't adjust well.

Don't get me wrong, Burton was a fantastic player with a tremendous career, but a little tighter reins on him might have produced more than just E8 and NCAA tournament appearances. There would assuredly have been some wins.

When did the Bombers start having all their success?  When they went away from the post game and implemented the Suns' run and gun offense.  I don't want to take anything away from Bostic because he was an all-time great at Ithaca but they started having all their success (17/24 wins in consecutive regular seasons, 2 Empire 8 RS titles) when they implemented the run and gun offense and went away from the post.  Unfortunately, this style typically doesn't correlate into postseason success (see Phoenix, IC) because teams typically are more active defensively in the post season and by that point of the season there is game film to dissect the offense.  It's not easy beating a good team three times in one season (see IC/Naz 2009 or Cuse/Georgetown 2010). 

So basically I think the question is how many regular season playoff wins would IC have if they maintained the "traditional" style of play (ie feed the post)?  To be honest I think they definitely would have had less regular season wins and probably a playoff win or two.  They would have been in the traditional IC 14-18 win range and wouldn't have come close to a 24-1 regular season. 

Also you have to look at the team as a whole -- it was guard dominated team.  Burton, Cruz, Rogers, Marcus, and Leahy (despite his size) were guard oriented players and performed better in the system.  Burton and Marcus especially thrived but as a whole everyone improved in the new system -- except Bostic and Tom Brown.  The post players were there to run the floor, rebound, and defend -- which they did well.  Overall, I think it was the right move to switch to the offense and IC wouldn't be experiencing their recent success without it. 

And for the record long shots = long rebounds, which are more difficult for defenders to scoop up since they typically have the inside position. And I disagree with you about Burton being a selfish player.  The point guard in this offense has a ton of responsbility and although he was typically a shoot first player (most great players are) -- I would definitely not classify him as a selfish player.

[buck1053]

Of course, they don't mention the 24 points and 6 assists he averaged in those games. I'm sure if Jeff Bostic could have done what Jeff DeHimer did in 2009 (18-for18) instead of limping around on one good ankle and Sean Leahy could have put up as many points in all three games (22) as Ryan McAdam did in the one game against IC (23) instead of firing up bricks from three-point range the Bombers might have been able to win one of those three games.

Don't have much to say about Leahy, but I saw IC play some during that season and Bostic's issues weren't really due his ankle issue -- which I believe came late in the season anyway -- but more to the fact the Bombers failed to get him involved in the offense. He should have been a dominant force, but he was maybe the 3rd option on the team, finishing 5th on the team in field goals attempted, with by far the best FG% of the top five shot takers on the team.

Bostic was 91-for-161 in FGs, with a .565 pct., averaging 10 points (6th on the team) and 10.1 rebounds a game. It is important to note he took 0 3-pointers, which helped his FG% compared to the chuckers on the team.

Comparatively, the top five scorers (by average) from that season:
Sean Burton — 198-430 FG, .460 pct.; 74-200 3FG, .370 pct.; 22.1 ppg, 7.9 apg, 3.5 rpg
Chris Cruz — 137-279 FG, .491 pct.; 48-130 3FG, .369 pct.; 13.0 ppg, 4.3 rpg
Brendan Rogers — 96-209 FG, .459 pct.; 23-74 3FG, .311 pct.; 11.4 ppg, 3.4 rpg
Sean Leahy — 118-293 FG, .403 pct.; 30-113 3FG, .265 pct.; 6.8 rpg
Jordan Marcus — 87-233 FG, .373 pct.; 63-168 3FG, .375 pct.; 1.6 rpg

So:
Bostic averaged 4.1 makes in 7.3 FG attempts in 28.8 minutes per game

Compared to:
Burton averaged averaged 7.3 makes in 15.9 FG attempts in 36.9 minutes per game
Cruz averaged 5.1 makes in 10.3 FG attempts in 23.5 minutes per game
Rogers averaged 3.6 makes in 7.7 FG attempts in 27.1 minutes per game
Leahy averaged 4.4 makes in 10.9 FG attempts 31.7 minutes per game
Marcus averaged 3.2 makes in 8.6 FG attempts in 17.2 minutes per game

IC, as has been discussed here before, has become such a run-and-gun team that they largely ignore post players. Especially last season, Burton many times would simply bring the ball up the court and fire up a shot, often not even getting into the offense.

If you're looking for a guy to win you one game, Burton is only a good option if you have him involving his teammates in the flow of the game. Dribbling down court and chucking up a shot, or passing off to a wing player so they can chuck it up is not running an offense. There is no telling what this team could have accomplished had Burton played less selfishly (I know it's hard to believe, especially since he averaged 7.9 assists per game, but watching him play showed he was quick to call his own number first). Think about what making Bostic the centerpiece of the offense would have done: Obviously, as a post player, he's going to be taking higher percentage shots and his athleticism would have made him a terrifically difficult matchup. If he gets the ball and scores a few in a row down low, the defense is going to start collapsing and you are going to have wing defenders cheating in to help out. That's when he kicks it out to the snipers behind the arc for wide open looks.

Instead, Burton would come down and fire one up, or pass off to a shooter who would fire one up, producing longer, unpredictable rebounds on misses easily scooped up by defenders. And, as the season wore on, teams could look at the tape and key in on Ithaca's lack of post game to their advantage, because the Bombers didn't adjust well.

Don't get me wrong, Burton was a fantastic player with a tremendous career, but a little tighter reins on him might have produced more than just E8 and NCAA tournament appearances. There would assuredly have been some wins.

When did the Bombers start having all their success?  When they went away from the post game and implemented the Suns' run and gun offense.  I don't want to take anything away from Bostic because he was an all-time great at Ithaca but they started having all their success (17/24 wins in consecutive regular seasons, 2 Empire 8 RS titles) when they implemented the run and gun offense and went away from the post.  Unfortunately, this style typically doesn't correlate into postseason success (see Phoenix, IC) because teams typically are more active defensively in the post season and by that point of the season there is game film to dissect the offense.  It's not easy beating a good team three times in one season (see IC/Naz 2009 or Cuse/Georgetown 2010). 

So basically I think the question is how many regular season playoff wins would IC have if they maintained the "traditional" style of play (ie feed the post)?  To be honest I think they definitely would have had less regular season wins and probably a playoff win or two.  They would have been in the traditional IC 14-18 win range and wouldn't have come close to a 24-1 regular season. 

Also you have to look at the team as a whole -- it was guard dominated team.  Burton, Cruz, Rogers, Marcus, and Leahy (despite his size) were guard oriented players and performed better in the system.  Burton and Marcus especially thrived but as a whole everyone improved in the new system -- except Bostic and Tom Brown.  The post players were there to run the floor, rebound, and defend -- which they did well.  Overall, I think it was the right move to switch to the offense and IC wouldn't be experiencing their recent success without it. 

And for the record long shots = long rebounds, which are more difficult for defenders to scoop up since they typically have the inside position. And I disagree with you about Burton being a selfish player.  The point guard in this offense has a ton of responsbility and although he was typically a shoot first player (most great players are) -- I would definitely not classify him as a selfish player.

I will concede you have some valid counter arguments, but I do have a question for you:

Would you rather win 24 games during the regular season or make a lengthy postseason run?

Lots of teams have great regular seasons only to fold in the playoffs and the legacy isn't with the ones who win during the regular season, it's with the ones that win championships. IC is an awful lot like the 2007 New England Patriots. Will the Pats be remembered for winning their first 18 games of the season? No, they are remembered for losing the Super Bowl. The Bombers run and gun has produced all kinds of regular season wins, but zilch in the postseason.

Just some food for thought.

[sjfcards]

Completely agree that teams are remembered for what they do in the postseason, but in the context of the argument of players I think the regular season is a much more representative sample of talent than a few playoff games. Of course playing well when your team needs it most has to be considered, but just like the best team in a conference can lose a conference tournament and still be the best team, a player can have a bad game in the post season and still be better than others that have performed.

I am pulling for Brandeis to get to the final four. It would make me feel better about Fisher losing to them.

[Bombers798891]

Of course, they don't mention the 24 points and 6 assists he averaged in those games. I'm sure if Jeff Bostic could have done what Jeff DeHimer did in 2009 (18-for18) instead of limping around on one good ankle and Sean Leahy could have put up as many points in all three games (22) as Ryan McAdam did in the one game against IC (23) instead of firing up bricks from three-point range the Bombers might have been able to win one of those three games.

Don't have much to say about Leahy, but I saw IC play some during that season and Bostic's issues weren't really due his ankle issue -- which I believe came late in the season anyway -- but more to the fact the Bombers failed to get him involved in the offense. He should have been a dominant force, but he was maybe the 3rd option on the team, finishing 5th on the team in field goals attempted, with by far the best FG% of the top five shot takers on the team.

Bostic was 91-for-161 in FGs, with a .565 pct., averaging 10 points (6th on the team) and 10.1 rebounds a game. It is important to note he took 0 3-pointers, which helped his FG% compared to the chuckers on the team.

Comparatively, the top five scorers (by average) from that season:
Sean Burton — 198-430 FG, .460 pct.; 74-200 3FG, .370 pct.; 22.1 ppg, 7.9 apg, 3.5 rpg
Chris Cruz — 137-279 FG, .491 pct.; 48-130 3FG, .369 pct.; 13.0 ppg, 4.3 rpg
Brendan Rogers — 96-209 FG, .459 pct.; 23-74 3FG, .311 pct.; 11.4 ppg, 3.4 rpg
Sean Leahy — 118-293 FG, .403 pct.; 30-113 3FG, .265 pct.; 6.8 rpg
Jordan Marcus — 87-233 FG, .373 pct.; 63-168 3FG, .375 pct.; 1.6 rpg

So:
Bostic averaged 4.1 makes in 7.3 FG attempts in 28.8 minutes per game

Compared to:
Burton averaged averaged 7.3 makes in 15.9 FG attempts in 36.9 minutes per game
Cruz averaged 5.1 makes in 10.3 FG attempts in 23.5 minutes per game
Rogers averaged 3.6 makes in 7.7 FG attempts in 27.1 minutes per game
Leahy averaged 4.4 makes in 10.9 FG attempts 31.7 minutes per game
Marcus averaged 3.2 makes in 8.6 FG attempts in 17.2 minutes per game

IC, as has been discussed here before, has become such a run-and-gun team that they largely ignore post players. Especially last season, Burton many times would simply bring the ball up the court and fire up a shot, often not even getting into the offense.

If you're looking for a guy to win you one game, Burton is only a good option if you have him involving his teammates in the flow of the game. Dribbling down court and chucking up a shot, or passing off to a wing player so they can chuck it up is not running an offense. There is no telling what this team could have accomplished had Burton played less selfishly (I know it's hard to believe, especially since he averaged 7.9 assists per game, but watching him play showed he was quick to call his own number first). Think about what making Bostic the centerpiece of the offense would have done: Obviously, as a post player, he's going to be taking higher percentage shots and his athleticism would have made him a terrifically difficult matchup. If he gets the ball and scores a few in a row down low, the defense is going to start collapsing and you are going to have wing defenders cheating in to help out. That's when he kicks it out to the snipers behind the arc for wide open looks.

Instead, Burton would come down and fire one up, or pass off to a shooter who would fire one up, producing longer, unpredictable rebounds on misses easily scooped up by defenders. And, as the season wore on, teams could look at the tape and key in on Ithaca's lack of post game to their advantage, because the Bombers didn't adjust well.

Don't get me wrong, Burton was a fantastic player with a tremendous career, but a little tighter reins on him might have produced more than just E8 and NCAA tournament appearances. There would assuredly have been some wins.

When did the Bombers start having all their success?  When they went away from the post game and implemented the Suns' run and gun offense.  I don't want to take anything away from Bostic because he was an all-time great at Ithaca but they started having all their success (17/24 wins in consecutive regular seasons, 2 Empire 8 RS titles) when they implemented the run and gun offense and went away from the post.  Unfortunately, this style typically doesn't correlate into postseason success (see Phoenix, IC) because teams typically are more active defensively in the post season and by that point of the season there is game film to dissect the offense.  It's not easy beating a good team three times in one season (see IC/Naz 2009 or Cuse/Georgetown 2010).  

So basically I think the question is how many regular season playoff wins would IC have if they maintained the "traditional" style of play (ie feed the post)?  To be honest I think they definitely would have had less regular season wins and probably a playoff win or two.  They would have been in the traditional IC 14-18 win range and wouldn't have come close to a 24-1 regular season.  

Also you have to look at the team as a whole -- it was guard dominated team.  Burton, Cruz, Rogers, Marcus, and Leahy (despite his size) were guard oriented players and performed better in the system.  Burton and Marcus especially thrived but as a whole everyone improved in the new system -- except Bostic and Tom Brown.  The post players were there to run the floor, rebound, and defend -- which they did well.  Overall, I think it was the right move to switch to the offense and IC wouldn't be experiencing their recent success without it.  

And for the record long shots = long rebounds, which are more difficult for defenders to scoop up since they typically have the inside position. And I disagree with you about Burton being a selfish player.  The point guard in this offense has a ton of responsbility and although he was typically a shoot first player (most great players are) -- I would definitely not classify him as a selfish player.

I will concede you have some valid counter arguments, but I do have a question for you:

Would you rather win 24 games during the regular season or make a lengthy postseason run?

Lots of teams have great regular seasons only to fold in the playoffs and the legacy isn't with the ones who win during the regular season, it's with the ones that win championships. IC is an awful lot like the 2007 New England Patriots. Will the Pats be remembered for winning their first 18 games of the season? No, they are remembered for losing the Super Bowl. The Bombers run and gun has produced all kinds of regular season wins, but zilch in the postseason.

Just some food for thought.

Well, I'll agree that the postseason is important, but that doesn't mean the regular season stops mattering either.

The fact that the run and gun hasn't gotten the Bombers postseason wins doesn't mean anything to me. Why? Because the Bombers never have done anything in the postseason.

Seriously, people have to realize how traditionally mediocre the Men's Basketball program was before these last three seasons. The team has made the NCAA's eight times total in it's history. I'm not positive, but I think they've only won one or two games in the NCAA Tournament.

Now, they've had two-straight 20-win seasons after only having three before 2009 and it's not even a question that the 2009 team is the best in school history. For all it's faults, the run and gun style has raised them to a level of success that's unprecedented. Are they streaky and capable of a clunker? Yeah. But it beats the heck out of boring and mediocre.

I was talking to a former PG on IC's team recently who mentioned to me how much he'd have loved to have played in that style, but "We always had to run the offense".

How is Burton "selfish"? Seriously, do people just make stuff up?

Burton took 1283 of his teams's 6886 shots in his four years (18.0%)
McAdam took 1309 of his team's 6658 shots in his four years (19.6%)

As a senior at the helm of that 24-3 team Burton took 22.9% of IC's shots
As a senior, McAdam took 24.5% of Naz's.

If you factor in free throws which can often come as the result of getting fouled while shooting and missing a shot (which doesn't count as a FG attempt in the box score) I'm sure McAdam's numbers are even higher considering he attempted 100 more free throws as a senior and 288 more over the course of a career despite the fact that Burton was head and shoulders the better free throw shooter and thus more likely to be the ball-handler at the end of a game when a team needs a free throw to ice it.

So yeah, I love how Burton gets labeled selfish whlie McAdam shoots more and gets portrayed as the guy who had to carry a team on his shoulders

[bomber3]

Of course, they don't mention the 24 points and 6 assists he averaged in those games. I'm sure if Jeff Bostic could have done what Jeff DeHimer did in 2009 (18-for18) instead of limping around on one good ankle and Sean Leahy could have put up as many points in all three games (22) as Ryan McAdam did in the one game against IC (23) instead of firing up bricks from three-point range the Bombers might have been able to win one of those three games.

Don't have much to say about Leahy, but I saw IC play some during that season and Bostic's issues weren't really due his ankle issue -- which I believe came late in the season anyway -- but more to the fact the Bombers failed to get him involved in the offense. He should have been a dominant force, but he was maybe the 3rd option on the team, finishing 5th on the team in field goals attempted, with by far the best FG% of the top five shot takers on the team.

Bostic was 91-for-161 in FGs, with a .565 pct., averaging 10 points (6th on the team) and 10.1 rebounds a game. It is important to note he took 0 3-pointers, which helped his FG% compared to the chuckers on the team.

Comparatively, the top five scorers (by average) from that season:
Sean Burton — 198-430 FG, .460 pct.; 74-200 3FG, .370 pct.; 22.1 ppg, 7.9 apg, 3.5 rpg
Chris Cruz — 137-279 FG, .491 pct.; 48-130 3FG, .369 pct.; 13.0 ppg, 4.3 rpg
Brendan Rogers — 96-209 FG, .459 pct.; 23-74 3FG, .311 pct.; 11.4 ppg, 3.4 rpg
Sean Leahy — 118-293 FG, .403 pct.; 30-113 3FG, .265 pct.; 6.8 rpg
Jordan Marcus — 87-233 FG, .373 pct.; 63-168 3FG, .375 pct.; 1.6 rpg

So:
Bostic averaged 4.1 makes in 7.3 FG attempts in 28.8 minutes per game

Compared to:
Burton averaged averaged 7.3 makes in 15.9 FG attempts in 36.9 minutes per game
Cruz averaged 5.1 makes in 10.3 FG attempts in 23.5 minutes per game
Rogers averaged 3.6 makes in 7.7 FG attempts in 27.1 minutes per game
Leahy averaged 4.4 makes in 10.9 FG attempts 31.7 minutes per game
Marcus averaged 3.2 makes in 8.6 FG attempts in 17.2 minutes per game

IC, as has been discussed here before, has become such a run-and-gun team that they largely ignore post players. Especially last season, Burton many times would simply bring the ball up the court and fire up a shot, often not even getting into the offense.

If you're looking for a guy to win you one game, Burton is only a good option if you have him involving his teammates in the flow of the game. Dribbling down court and chucking up a shot, or passing off to a wing player so they can chuck it up is not running an offense. There is no telling what this team could have accomplished had Burton played less selfishly (I know it's hard to believe, especially since he averaged 7.9 assists per game, but watching him play showed he was quick to call his own number first). Think about what making Bostic the centerpiece of the offense would have done: Obviously, as a post player, he's going to be taking higher percentage shots and his athleticism would have made him a terrifically difficult matchup. If he gets the ball and scores a few in a row down low, the defense is going to start collapsing and you are going to have wing defenders cheating in to help out. That's when he kicks it out to the snipers behind the arc for wide open looks.

Instead, Burton would come down and fire one up, or pass off to a shooter who would fire one up, producing longer, unpredictable rebounds on misses easily scooped up by defenders. And, as the season wore on, teams could look at the tape and key in on Ithaca's lack of post game to their advantage, because the Bombers didn't adjust well.

Don't get me wrong, Burton was a fantastic player with a tremendous career, but a little tighter reins on him might have produced more than just E8 and NCAA tournament appearances. There would assuredly have been some wins.

When did the Bombers start having all their success?  When they went away from the post game and implemented the Suns' run and gun offense.  I don't want to take anything away from Bostic because he was an all-time great at Ithaca but they started having all their success (17/24 wins in consecutive regular seasons, 2 Empire 8 RS titles) when they implemented the run and gun offense and went away from the post.  Unfortunately, this style typically doesn't correlate into postseason success (see Phoenix, IC) because teams typically are more active defensively in the post season and by that point of the season there is game film to dissect the offense.  It's not easy beating a good team three times in one season (see IC/Naz 2009 or Cuse/Georgetown 2010).  

So basically I think the question is how many regular season playoff wins would IC have if they maintained the "traditional" style of play (ie feed the post)?  To be honest I think they definitely would have had less regular season wins and probably a playoff win or two.  They would have been in the traditional IC 14-18 win range and wouldn't have come close to a 24-1 regular season.  

Also you have to look at the team as a whole -- it was guard dominated team.  Burton, Cruz, Rogers, Marcus, and Leahy (despite his size) were guard oriented players and performed better in the system.  Burton and Marcus especially thrived but as a whole everyone improved in the new system -- except Bostic and Tom Brown.  The post players were there to run the floor, rebound, and defend -- which they did well.  Overall, I think it was the right move to switch to the offense and IC wouldn't be experiencing their recent success without it.  

And for the record long shots = long rebounds, which are more difficult for defenders to scoop up since they typically have the inside position. And I disagree with you about Burton being a selfish player.  The point guard in this offense has a ton of responsbility and although he was typically a shoot first player (most great players are) -- I would definitely not classify him as a selfish player.

I will concede you have some valid counter arguments, but I do have a question for you:

Would you rather win 24 games during the regular season or make a lengthy postseason run?

Lots of teams have great regular seasons only to fold in the playoffs and the legacy isn't with the ones who win during the regular season, it's with the ones that win championships. IC is an awful lot like the 2007 New England Patriots. Will the Pats be remembered for winning their first 18 games of the season? No, they are remembered for losing the Super Bowl. The Bombers run and gun has produced all kinds of regular season wins, but zilch in the postseason.

Just some food for thought.

Well, I'll agree that the postseason is important, but that doesn't mean the regular season stops mattering either.

The fact that the run and gun hasn't gotten the Bombers postseason wins doesn't mean anything to me. Why? Because the Bombers never have done anything in the postseason.

Seriously, people have to realize how traditionally mediocre the Men's Basketball program was before these last three seasons. The team has made the NCAA's eight times total in it's history. I'm not positive, but I think they've only won one or two games in the NCAA Tournament.

Now, they've had two-straight 20-win seasons after only having three before 2009 and it's not even a question that the 2009 team is the best in school history. For all it's faults, the run and gun style has raised them to a level of success that's unprecedented. Are they streaky and capable of a clunker? Yeah. But it beats the heck out of boring and mediocre.

I was talking to a former PG on IC's team recently who mentioned to me how much he'd have loved to have played in that style, but "We always had to run the offense".

How is Burton "selfish"? Seriously, do people just make stuff up?

Burton took 1283 of his teams's 6886 shots in his four years (18.0%)
McAdam took 1309 of his team's 6658 shots in his four years (19.6%)

As a senior at the helm of that 24-3 team Burton took 22.9% of IC's shots
As a senior, McAdam took 24.5% of Naz's.

If you factor in free throws which can often come as the result of getting fouled while shooting and missing a shot (which doesn't count as a FG attempt in the box score) I'm sure McAdam's numbers are even higher considering he attempted 100 more free throws as a senior and 288 more over the course of a career despite the fact that Burton was head and shoulders the better free throw shooter and thus more likely to be the ball-handler at the end of a game when a team needs a free throw to ice it.

So yeah, I love how Burton gets labeled selfish whlie McAdam shoots more and gets portrayed as the guy who had to carry a team on his shoulders

Well put.  That's what I was getting at when saying the new offense has moved the program in the right direction.  Prior to it being implemented the team was decent -- typically qualified for the E8 tournamnet but usually only won 14-17 games.  From 2003-2007 they had 12.13.13.16.and 15 wins.  Since then IC has 17, 24, and 20 -- which is the highest total of any three year span in school history.

And great stats with the McAdam/Burton FG numbers.  I think it may seem Burton took more shots because alot of his shots were deep threes or earlier in the shot clock so they were more recognizable.  McAdam would take 15 shots and you wouldn't realize it because his were around the basket.

[magicman]

The D3Hoops All Region Teams have just been released. Nazareth's Corey McAdam was named the All East Region Player of the Year.  Ithaca College forward Phil Barera was named to the All East Region First Team. Congratulations to all these outstanding players.  Here's the complete list of of award winners:

Men's All-East Region Team
Players were nominated for these awards by the Sports Information Directors at the various schools. All SIDs in the region were given the opportunity to vote.

Player of the Year: Corey McAdam, Sr., Nazareth
Coach of the Year: Kevin Grimmer, SUNYIT
Rookie of the Year: Stefan Thompson, G, Hobart

First team

Pos. Player School Yr. Hometown
G Corey McAdam Nazareth Sr. Fairport, N.Y.
G Diloo Brown SUNYIT Sr. Harlem, N.Y.
F Matt Pebole Hobart So. Little Silver, N.J.
F Phil Barera Ithaca Jr. Belmont, Mass. 
C David Golembiowski SUNYIT Jr. Barneveld, N.Y.

Second team

Pos. Player School Yr. Hometown
G Chris Ruiz Plattsburgh State Jr. Washington Hts., N.Y.
G Darrell Bullock Wells Sr. Chicago, Ill.
F Errol Daniyan Plattsburgh State Jr. Coram, N.Y.
C Juan Paulino Wells Sr. Bronx, N.Y.
C Brian Beckford Oneonta State Sr. Brooklyn, N.Y.

[bomber3]

The D3Hoops All Region Teams have just been released. Nazareth's Corey McAdam was named the All East Region Player of the Year.  Ithaca College forward Phil Barera was named to the All East Region First Team. Congratulations to all these outstanding players.  Here's the complete list of of award winners:

Men's All-East Region Team
Players were nominated for these awards by the Sports Information Directors at the various schools. All SIDs in the region were given the opportunity to vote.

Player of the Year: Corey McAdam, Sr., Nazareth
Coach of the Year: Kevin Grimmer, SUNYIT
Rookie of the Year: Stefan Thompson, G, Hobart

First team

Pos. Player School Yr. Hometown
G Corey McAdam Nazareth Sr. Fairport, N.Y.
G Diloo Brown SUNYIT Sr. Harlem, N.Y.
F Matt Pebole Hobart So. Little Silver, N.J.
F Phil Barera Ithaca Jr. Belmont, Mass. 
C David Golembiowski SUNYIT Jr. Barneveld, N.Y.

Second team

Pos. Player School Yr. Hometown
G Chris Ruiz Plattsburgh State Jr. Washington Hts., N.Y.
G Darrell Bullock Wells Sr. Chicago, Ill.
F Errol Daniyan Plattsburgh State Jr. Coram, N.Y.
C Juan Paulino Wells Sr. Bronx, N.Y.
C Brian Beckford Oneonta State Sr. Brooklyn, N.Y.

OK I have a few issues with the selections.  POY and COY are well deserved.  Grimmer lead SUNYIT to the Sweet 16 and McAdam is one of the all-time greats in the Empire 8.  However I think there are two issues with the team:

1.  How did Sean Rossi not earn Rooke of the Year over Stefan Thompson? Rossi was the orchestrator for the Bombers and had the ball in his hand 75% of the time on offense for a 20 win team.  Although he had a very good supporting cast (Barera, Marcus, Cruz), he played 35+ minutes a game and handled the offense extremely well for a freshman.  Not only that but he ending up leading the NATION in assists.  Here are the stats for the two players:

Thompson - 28 MinutesPG 15.0 Points 3.28 Assists 3.0 Rebounds 1.4 Steals (21 3's)
Rossi         - 34 MinutesPG 11.0 Points 7.89 Assists 2.2 Rebounds 1.1 Steals (38 3's)

I think Rossi did alot more for Ithaca than Thompson did for Hobart.  On top of that IC beat Hobart and won the ECAC tournament that Hobart lost in the semis in. I know its close but IC was a better team and Rossi ran the show for them.

2. How did two Wells players make the top ten in the region? I admittedly did not see them play but they were spanked by SUNYIT in the NEAC finals.  They did win 21 games but ~10 of those wins are from the likes of Green Mountain, Cazenovia, etc.  You can put one player on there but two might be pushing it.