Empire 8

[UCgrad45]

first of all, utica only has two decent players. herring and the 27 year old solicitor of a prostitute. dennis munch is probably the worst player in d3 basketball. he wouldnt even make my local middle school team. he probably payed the school to take him or maybe they felt sorry for him.

Yeah, all he did was come into the game and within 60 seconds get a steal, cause a jump ball, and take a charge. He also took 4 charges in one game, more than what most teams do. He steps into his role and does it while playing harder than anyone on the court.

BTW, I find it funny that you are trying to rip on a team based on the play of the third guy off the bench.

[gobombers15]

My point is that each time that Utica loses a game, it's the same "we beat ourselves, we were better than the other team, etc." It's a tired act at this point and I think a lot of the people who have been around here for awhile would probably agree.

The bottom line is that good teams capitalize on their opportunities. All of your "observations" suggest that UC let their opportunities go by the wayside while Hamilton apparently capitalized on theirs. Hamilton deserved the W if that's the case. I think where you really hurt your credibility in the initial post is where you took the potshot at Hamilton and said you'd beat them by 15 if the two teams played later in the season. C'mon, stop that. You know it'd be another close game and you just look like a sore loser when you say that. Sorry, but that's the perception.

You can quote me statistics until you're blue in the face. The only numbers that matter are the ones on the scoreboard at the end of the game. Hamilton's a good team, tip your hat to them and move on. Utica will still be successful this year but don't turn the board against you over a sour reaction to a loss against a team that is just as good as Utica.

NOTE: Being a Tulane student, I attended our first game a few weeks ago. We were one-point favorites entering the game; we lost by 40. The opponent: Butler. That was before they went on to beat Notre Dame, Indiana, Tennesee, and Gonzaga. Watching them in warmups I seriously thought to myself "wow, these Butler kids look like they should be playing D3 ball." Whoops.

[JQV]

Just thought I'd throw my two cents in here because, well what else do we do on these boards.

I agree with UCGrad45 that a team can dominate a game, play better than their opponent, and still lose because of a poor shooting night.  I don't know anything about Utica but, when I played they were pretty guard oriented.  Guard oriented teams are more susceptible to these types of losses than teams that grind it out in the pivot.

I don't think the assist edge or, the fact that Utica was missing open shots is evidence they dominated the game.  When I was coaching, we stopped comparing total assists because, teams that played poor man defense always beat us in assist total.  The reason: we beat them off the bounce with ease and rarely passed.  I didn't see the game, but this is a possible alternate explanation.  Utica generally missing open shots also doesn't neccessarily prove Hamilton played bad defense.  Maybe those shots were open because they were the shots the Hamilton coaches wanted Utica to take.  It is basically impossible to stop a team from shooting so, a lot of coaches implement defensive strategies that incentive shooting by the bad shooters. 

[UCgrad45]

Just thought I'd throw my two cents in here because, well what else do we do on these boards.

I agree with UCGrad45 that a team can dominate a game, play better than their opponent, and still lose because of a poor shooting night.  I don't know anything about Utica but, when I played they were pretty guard oriented.  Guard oriented teams are more susceptible to these types of losses than teams that grind it out in the pivot.

I don't think the assist edge or, the fact that Utica was missing open shots is evidence they dominated the game.  When I was coaching, we stopped comparing total assists because, teams that played poor man defense always beat us in assist total.  The reason: we beat them off the bounce with ease and rarely passed.  I didn't see the game, but this is a possible alternate explanation.  Utica generally missing open shots also doesn't neccessarily prove Hamilton played bad defense.  Maybe those shots were open because they were the shots the Hamilton coaches wanted Utica to take.  It is basically impossible to stop a team from shooting so, a lot of coaches implement defensive strategies that incentive shooting by the bad shooters. 

I totally agree with everything here. However, knowing each player on the team as well as I do, it wasn't the poor shooters that were missing wide open shots. The majority of the missed uncontested shots were in the paint, or just outside. However Collier, who shot 50% from the arc last year missed 4 or 5 wide open 3's with plenty of time to take his shot. Just a rough night overall shooting, including from the FT line, where UC had been strong coming into the game. Oddly enough, the difference in the score was the amount of FT made. Teams don't play UC in a straight man to man, and I doubt many teams will even attempt it this season.

[slickyquick]

It is obvious to everyone that Utica's two best players are Herring and Bryant. Both of them will compete for first team all league this year.  Other teams will try to shut them down. Utica needs a couple of players every game to step up and score because Herring and Bryant can't do it all.

With Collier being a senior you would think that he would step up. He has been inconsisent his whole career because of his lack of athleticism.  He will have a tough time dealing with defensive pressure because he is shaky handling the ball.

[UCgrad45]

It is obvious to everyone that Utica's two best players are Herring and Bryant. Both of them will compete for first team all league this year.  Other teams will try to shut them down. Utica needs a couple of players every game to step up and score because Herring and Bryant can't do it all.

With Collier being a senior you would think that he would step up. He has been inconsisent his whole career because of his lack of athleticism.  He will have a tough time dealing with defensive pressure because he is shaky handling the ball.

They do need others to step up with scoring, and for the most part they have so far this season. Ray only scored 6 in the game UC won 104-37. Multiple guys in double figures every night was the reason UC was averaging over 90 a game going into the last contest. They have a lot of shooters and big men (one of those can shoot outside as well) in the Freshman class. Those guys are going to have to learn to play their game and be comfortable with it.

Where are you from slicky?

[gobombers15]

Should be an interesting competition for the PG spot on the first team all-E8 this year between Burton and Herring. I'd favor Herring but if Burton keeps up these assist totals, who knows.

[slickyquick]

I've lived all over the state, seen a lot of basketball over the past 8 years or so. Just trying to keep in touch because I recently moved out to the northeast.

Just because Utica scored 104 on a team that couldn't guard my one legged grandmother doesn't mean that the rest of the team can score. I'm sure their freshmen class is good, they usually are, the question is, can they sustain that scoring during league play.

[lileyes]

UCgrad...totally agree with you on all of your points. 

Woot...how many times have you seen Dennis Munch play?? Can't be very much, because, although he doesn't put up any sort of scoring to talk about, he is such a valuable player in every aspect of the game.  I know a number of college coaches who have said they would take a player like Munch on their team no matter what level they were coaching at....meaning DI, II, or III...not modified, JV, or varsity  . 

[woot returns]

was herring given alot of d1 offers? do you know, uc grad?

[reelentless]

Enjoying this string on the UC / Hamilton Game, but feeling a little sorry for UCgrad.  Unfortunate that being at the game is a disadvantage.  Hamilton won, UC lost, all of that is simple.   But if you sat at the game (as I did) and watched UC miss more than a dozen uncontested lapups and offensive rebound chippies, you might feel there is some hope for the season.

As the father of one of the UC freshman bigs (Whyte) who "needs to develop" I'm ok with waiting to see what happens next.

[UCgrad45]

was herring given alot of d1 offers? do you know, uc grad?

I'm not really sure. I believe he had a few, but don't quote me.

[UCgrad45]

Enjoying this string on the UC / Hamilton Game, but feeling a little sorry for UCgrad.  Unfortunate that being at the game is a disadvantage.  Hamilton won, UC lost, all of that is simple.   But if you sat at the game (as I did) and watched UC miss more than a dozen uncontested lapups and offensive rebound chippies, you might feel there is some hope for the season.

As the father of one of the UC freshman bigs (Whyte) who "needs to develop" I'm ok with waiting to see what happens next.

Ahh, don't feel bad for me. I've seen UC go from a team with very little talent and not a chance to go anywhere when coach Goodemote first took over to a Sweet 16 team.


Your son is going to be a real good player. I like his attitude and how he approaches the game. I'd expect to see him playing more as the season goes on if he continues to play tough. He is a good kid as well, you should be proud. 

[FisherDynasty]

I agree with you lileyes.... Although Munch doesn't put up the numbers, he is a pesky pain in the ass, that does a lot more than stats show.  He is always drawing charges, playing physical, will throw a cheap shot in if need be, play dirty if the refs allow, and just plays very hard and within the system.  Saying munch doesn't belong on a d3 team definatly, would be drawn from a first or second time viewer that hasn't seem him play enough or played against him.    And to tell you the truth, Every good team at any level has players like that (In my opinion it is a must)

[gobombers15]

UCgrad...totally agree with you on all of your points. 

Yeah, and if I remember some of your posts from last season, you have about as much objectivity as Tommy Heinsohn. Man am I pumped for a few more "________ didn't win the game, Utica lost the game" posts this year. At least we'll be expecting it. The RIT guys will be back in here soon enough so that I don't have to go it alone against you UC kool-aid drinkers.