Empire 8

[gobombers15]

I think everyone is mistaken bout how good that fisher team that went undefeated was.  THey were as solid and talented of a line up as one will ever see in a d3 starting line up.  Tiger fan, wtf are u smoking.  Sean Murphy is as good of a shooter as Mike Mcgee, have u ever seen mcgee when hes on.  Bc i have, he was easily the best shooter that the empire 8 has seen or will see in a long time.  Murphy is a better player but is in no way a better 3 point shooter then mike mcgee.  Maybe u forgot this but, - every team knew that that was all mike could do and he still led all of D1 D2 and D3 in 3 point shooting percentage.  THis is after hitting 3 after 3 after 3 in the mouths of any defender who got near him.  Hes a bad defender, did u forget they had nick bennett shutting down the best palyer on every team every game.  Mcgee didnt really need to play D. Hes as pure of a shooter as they come.  young Dan msweeny was the weakest palyer in taht starting line up,yea and hes averaging about 20 ppg

Coming from a neutral 3rd party, McGee had a better pure stroke. However, he also had a TON more wide open looks than Murphy and Murphy usually took more difficult shots. McGee was blessed with a great team around him. It could easily be argued that he was never more than a #3 option on ANY of those Fisher teams. While people knew he was a good 3-point shooter, he was never the focus of any team's defensive scheme; that usually belonged to Sidney, O'Brien, etc.

McGee was deadly if you left him open but I saw Murphy hit more trey's from three feet behind the line with a guy in his face than any player in all my years watching E8 hoops. I'm glad you realize Murphy was a better all-around player. McGee would score 15-20 on one end and give up just about the same on the other end; the fact that Bennett was a defensive stalwart is pretty irrelevant to this conversation.

By the way, who is this Jackson guy you mention, TF2?

Ty Schultz needs to be involved more in this conversation. The kid was a double-double threat every night since his freshman year and is probably one of the most athletic, if not the most athletic players the conference has ever seen (would put McSweeney in that convo, too...haven't seen Bryant play, so can't comment). The kid could block shots, rebound, run the floor, step out and hit a jumper; he could do it all. There was a reason people called him "freak."

[tigerfan2]

I think GB15 pretty much completed my argument as to why Murphy was a better player than McGee. I watched both of them play all 4 years and in terms of shooting Murphy was in the top 10 in 3 pt percentage in in the top 3 in 3 pointers made per game. He also was the focus of most teams defenses, unlike McGee. I'm not saying McGee wasn't the best shooter in the league because he was but Murphy was in the top 5. Take that plus the fact that he was considerably better in every other aspect of the game than McGee and that is why I said he would have played over McGee on that team.

Furthermore, how does having Nick Bennett on the roster counter the argument that he's a bad defender? McGee couldn't guard is own shadow, much less someone on the other team.

I guess they couldn't have used an extra defender in that 67-43 beating they received from Potsdam either.

GB15 - I was referring to Corrin Jackson from EC. He was 1st team E8 3 years in a row.

[FisherDynasty]

I mostly agree with both GB15 and TigerFan, However, in my opinion, when you are forced to be the go to guy on a team you (getting keyed on or not) you attempt alot more shots per game and are forced to shoot harder shots (often times worse shots).  The reason I say and still think Murphy doesn't get into the line-up is because in order to have a great team you need to have roles.  Not saying murphy isn't a team player but Mike Mcghee had a role on the Fisher team, and yes he probably was the 3rd option, but again on such a good team u only need to do certain things.  I've played with Mike many times, and he can do a lot more then just shoot the 3 ball.  If he was on RIT he would be getting as many shot attempts and would have been forced to create more shots on his own.  So its a hard comparison.  Having played with both, Murphy still can create better, but as far as getting a spot in the line-up, I go with Mcghee.

[superman57]

Mike McGee was a good solid player and fisher would not have become the team they were without him...but he is like a Kyle Korver or any other good player that is a compliment to a great team

[tigerfan2]

I'll take Fishers starting 5 from the 28-0 team.  That year there wouldnt of have been a person from any other team in the conf. to squeeze in that line up.  Say im bias but its true.

I don't know how everyone else read this but I read this as there wasn't anyone else in the E8 that year that would have been good enough to crack the Fisher lineup, which is completely false in my opinion.

I understand that every player has a role to play and that sometimes the most talented players don't start because the team chemistry isn't as good with them in the ball game.

So if the argument is that there wasn't a better player in the E8 to fill the role of a spot of shooter for Fisher that year then yes, I would agree that McGhee was the best player for that role.

But if you're saying that there wasn't a player in the E8 that could've broken into that starting lineup than I disagree.

Since it's all hypothetical, you could argue that SJF could have been even better with someone like a Murphy starting at the 4 and bringing more than excellent 3 point shooting to the table, but also rebounding and defense.

[fisheralum91]

indeed there have been some great players in the e8 over the years, but when it comes down to it- isnt d3 bball all about the ability to get the team on the same page?

[JQV]

I was referring to Corrin Jackson from EC. He was 1st team E8 3 years in a row.

I forgot about this guy.  He could really fill it up.

Word on the street is Jackson was in San Diego at one point playing in a City League with IC's Jason Wallen and Will Hill.

[JQV]

indeed there have been some great players in the e8 over the years, but when it comes down to it- isnt d3 bball all about the ability to get the team on the same page?

I am going to respectfully disagree with my distinguished colleague on the governing council (sorry hoop guys, go read the football board and that will make sense).  I think getting guys on the same page is no more important in DIII than it is at any level.  Hoop is a sport like few others where a small ensemble of good players can win you games.  (How many games did Downing and Docteur win for AU inspite of their coach?)  In my mind there are two kinds of great D-III teams:

1) The team that has one or two outstanding DIII players (or borderline DII players) and the right supporting cast and chemistry. (Fisher's 28-0 team comes to mind).

2) The team that gets a DI player who wants to go to the school for some non-hoop reason or transfers there for some other reason.  (Think of Devean George's team -- Otterbein? -- or IC when they had Eric Pitcher in the early 90s).

[FisherDynasty]

Still going with what i said, but everyone has their own opinions.  There was no way Murphy was starting at the 4 over Sidney.  The only position in the line-up that may have bee replaceable was the 5 spot.  But then again, Fisher even had Charlie Zahn (D2 transfer from Mansfeild) coming in off the bench who dominated just about everybig man in the E8 as well. 

Anyways, Good call Jose, Corrin Jackson was nasty.  He's definatly got my vote for 1st team.

[slickyquick]

"I think everyone is mistaken bout how good that fisher team that went undefeated was.  THey were as solid and talented of a line up as one will ever see in a d3 starting line up." - Coach No Name

They were smoked by a much better starting lineup from Potsdam.  The reason that they were smoked was because they couldn't handle defensive pressure. Both O'Brien and Sidney went into a hole and couldn't seem to get out of it that day. They had no answer at all for Ryan Lynn, Junior Clayton, Jim Connelly, Christian Turner, and Eldon Harris. Talk about a team that didn't get any respect and still doesn't. They didn't win too many individual awards but they were clearly better then Fisher.

And it is tough to say that it Fisher had a bad night because Potsdam forced them to have streaks of brown down their legs.

As far as most talented teams that I have seen, maybe look at Williams and Stevens Point's National Championship teams. Those guys were probably some of the best D3 teams ever assembled.

[JQV]

"I think everyone is mistaken bout how good that fisher team that went undefeated was.  THey were as solid and talented of a line up as one will ever see in a d3 starting line up." - Coach No Name

They were smoked by a much better starting lineup from Potsdam.  The reason that they were smoked was because they couldn't handle defensive pressure. Both O'Brien and Sidney went into a hole and couldn't seem to get out of it that day. They had no answer at all for Ryan Lynn, Junior Clayton, Jim Connelly, Christian Turner, and Eldon Harris. Talk about a team that didn't get any respect and still doesn't. They didn't win too many individual awards but they were clearly better then Fisher.

And it is tough to say that it Fisher had a bad night because Potsdam forced them to have streaks of brown down their legs.

As far as most talented teams that I have seen, maybe look at Williams and Stevens Point's National Championship teams. Those guys were probably some of the best D3 teams ever assembled.

Potsdam certainly beat Fisher but don't be so quick to assume they had the better lineup.  Pressure is the great equalizer in basketball.  Teams that effectively play pressure can level the playing field against much more talented teams.  Potsdam may have been more talented but, the pressure means the game is less indicative of that than you say it is.

[FisherDynasty]

I'm with Jose again.  Sunyac teams with their uptempo can beat anyone and lose to anyone.  Bport beat Fisher this year, do I think they're better then Fisher? No way.  Fisher being 28-0 had a falling out, and when things went bad they went really bad.  When your not used to being down sometimes you fall apart.  Potsdam's line-up was not better then Fisher, it was very good but not better.  If those 2 teams played 10 times Fisher would have won atleast 7. 

I do agree with the Williams and Stevens Point Teams, those teams are unreal and no team in the East region can compare.  They may be able to pull of the upset if they make it that far, but as far as talent goes, those teams are on another level.

[slickyquick]

This is becoming fun. How can you say that Fisher beats Potsdam 7 of 10 times when Potsdam beat them by 24.  The game wasn't even that close.  If they play on a neutral court like they did, i would say Potsdam beats them 8 of 10 times.  Plus, I wouldn't exactly place that game as uptempo, both teams only took 49 shots, and the final was 67-43. Though, the SUNYAC generally plays more face paced but they game Potsdam did what Michigan State used to do with the Flintstones. Grind it out, and Fisher was stuck in the grinder.

To say that Potsdam is less talented then Fisher I think was proven to be completely false. Ryan Lynn made O'Brien look like he couldn't start on Fisher's girls team with his 7 turnovers. Connelly completely shut down Sidney to the point that Sidney didn't want to go back on the floor. The 3 headed monster of Turner, Harris, and Brooks dominated the game as well. Fisher shot 30% because of Potsdam's physicality. They didn't want to go near the basket.

Maybe what you are trying to say is that, "HARD WORK BEATS TALENT WHEN TALENT DOESN'T WORK HARD."

[JQV]

This is becoming fun. How can you say that Fisher beats Potsdam 7 of 10 times when Potsdam beat them by 24.  The game wasn't even that close.  If they play on a neutral court like they did, i would say Potsdam beats them 8 of 10 times.  Plus, I wouldn't exactly place that game as uptempo, both teams only took 49 shots, and the final was 67-43. Though, the SUNYAC generally plays more face paced but they game Potsdam did what Michigan State used to do with the Flintstones. Grind it out, and Fisher was stuck in the grinder.

To say that Potsdam is less talented then Fisher I think was proven to be completely false. Ryan Lynn made O'Brien look like he couldn't start on Fisher's girls team with his 7 turnovers. Connelly completely shut down Sidney to the point that Sidney didn't want to go back on the floor. The 3 headed monster of Turner, Harris, and Brooks dominated the game as well. Fisher shot 30% because of Potsdam's physicality. They didn't want to go near the basket.

Maybe what you are trying to say is that, "HARD WORK BEATS TALENT WHEN TALENT DOESN'T WORK HARD."

Cliches aside, I don't think you have restated your argument.  I never saw either team play so I don't know whose starters were more talented.  I think it is a stretch to say either team that had progressed that far would beat the other 7 or 8 out of 10.  Both teams were outstanding.  It would most like be 5-5 or 6-4 given the point in the season.  My previous point was about pressure not speed.  Pressure and speed are different, though they often co-exist.  If Dobbs is doing what he did when I played for him, his pressure is designed to force an opponent to milk the shot clock in the backcourt.  It is not designed for backcourt steals and quick scores.  The goal is have an opponent setting up their offense around 25 instead of around 33.  But pressure is still the great talent neutralizer.

[UCgrad45]

This is becoming fun. How can you say that Fisher beats Potsdam 7 of 10 times when Potsdam beat them by 24.  The game wasn't even that close.  If they play on a neutral court like they did, i would say Potsdam beats them 8 of 10 times.  Plus, I wouldn't exactly place that game as uptempo, both teams only took 49 shots, and the final was 67-43. Though, the SUNYAC generally plays more face paced but they game Potsdam did what Michigan State used to do with the Flintstones. Grind it out, and Fisher was stuck in the grinder.

To say that Potsdam is less talented then Fisher I think was proven to be completely false. Ryan Lynn made O'Brien look like he couldn't start on Fisher's girls team with his 7 turnovers. Connelly completely shut down Sidney to the point that Sidney didn't want to go back on the floor. The 3 headed monster of Turner, Harris, and Brooks dominated the game as well. Fisher shot 30% because of Potsdam's physicality. They didn't want to go near the basket.

Maybe what you are trying to say is that, "HARD WORK BEATS TALENT WHEN TALENT DOESN'T WORK HARD."

Speaking of Turner, I played with him in HS. Do you have any idea if he is in med school and where he is going? I saw in the local paper that he is getting married. The announcement was in the same day as the engagement announcement for Dave Juda (Wolfman) who played at Nazareth.