MBB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I'm basically in agreement with FISHTANKFAN.  Randolph-Macon was the victim of poor NCAA decision-making.  The men's and women's committees did not have in place an adequate process for coordinating their efforts.  When the women's committee decided not to hold first-round games in Crenshaw, the men's committee should have become aware of that.  In this age of text-messaging and all kinds of electronic communication, the coordination of efforts by these two NCAA committees was not very well thought-out.

As a result, Randolph-Macon was denied a home court advantage.  Whether or not that would have made a difference in the outcome is open to speculation.  Since the result at St. Mary's was not even close, it's reasonable to think that the matchup, if played in Crenshaw, would have produced the same ultimate outcome, even if the score had been closer.  This isn't the first game that the Yellow Jackets have lost this year .... they've lost to other solid teams such as Wabash, Virginia Wesleyan, and Guilford.  They only very narrowly scraped by Hampden-Sydney in both games.  Even teams of Final Four quality, like this year's Yellow Jackets, have nights when they don't hit their shots or play up to their potential.  (Remember the 2nd-round 2000 Tiger loss to Maryville in Fleet Gymnasium?  That Tiger team -- with seniors Grimes, Fox, Harris, and Jirak -- was 26-1 and certainly seemed to be on its way back to the Final Four, after losing the national championship by 1 point in double OT the year before.)

Yellow Jackets' fans were denied the opportunity to see 3 good basketball games in Crenshaw .... a real plus for the fans and for the school!  The presence of a huge crowd of Yellow Jackets' fans might not have changed the outcome ....  but it certainly wouldn't have hurt the team's performance, right?

It would have been good if the NCAA committee had acknowledged its mistake, changed the location to Crenshaw, and paid the deposits made on buses not used or whatever needed to be done.  The Yellow Jackets (#2 in the South) had a much stronger SOS than St. Mary's (#2 in the Mid-Atlantic) and were 3-3 against regionally-ranked teams, whereas St. Mary's had played only one game against a regionally-ranked team in their entire season (in which they solidly defeated Franklin and Marshall, an overrated team that the Marlins barely got by last night).

I would not rank this year's Yellow Jacket team as among the best 10 ODAC teams of the past 20 years, but I do think that the 2010-2011 Randolph-Macon team was definitely among the best in the country this year.  On another night, they would have beaten St. Mary's .... and then they could very conceivably have gone on to win against Buffalo State in the Sweet Sixteen and Middlebury in the Elite Eight to get back to the Final Four in Salem.

The Marlins will play the Ephs at Williams College on Friday evening at 7:30pm.  The location has just been officially announced.  With a win, VWC will play either Amherst or Rhode Island College the following evening at 7:00pm.  Go Marlins!!

To clarify a few points:
- The men's committee was told by the women's committee that RMC women would be hosting... so the men, who had to get their bracket done before the women, made adjustments as such and had RMC men on the road. The men were then apparently not informed that the women had changed their minds as the men's committee found out about RMC women NOT hosting when the bracket was officially announced at 3:00 PM last Monday.

- The men's committee did try to make some changes... I know there were talks about what to do with the pods/games/hosts... but the trickle-down effect that would have brought the SMC, VWC, Cabrini, Ramapo and possibly other pods into the discussion was going to be too much to overcome three hours after the brackets were announced and major travel changes would have taken place. It was unfortunate, I know a lesson has been learned, RMC was the unfortunate victim (never heard from the women's committee as to what happened - though it is a new chair and a new NCAA liason this year). (FYI - SMC actually played four games against regionally ranked teams... going 3-1 - F&M and Wesley.)

- Agreed I am not sure that the results would have changed. RMC was okay in the first half against Alvernia... went to sleep in the second half and went over 10 minutes without scoring blowing a 9 point lead and were down as much as 8... fought to force overtime and got lucky in OT thanks in part of Alvernia's big man fouling out to win that. Their cold shooting and somewhat confusing efforts on offense continued into the SMC game. SMC was up 12-2 before anyone realized it and it continued to get worse. The score was actually about 21 or 22 point spread at the end before a couple of bench players for RMC got a couple of nice plays in late to cut it to 15. Not sure home court advantage would have helped an RMC team that either expected to win... or just wasn't up to the task against a determined and constantly improving SMC team.

I hate the argument, well if you really think you should be hosting you should just back it up.  Its the same argument the espn shills used after the NO/Sea wild card game.  RMC got hosed, and was put in a position that was too much to overcome to "back it up."  Smc was undefeted at home, a very tall task.

Not that it hasn't been done... F&M beat SMC last  year on SMC's court in the Sweet 16. Yes... 26-1 in the last two years is daunting... but it isn't impossible. I thought RMC could do it... I thought they were a good enough team... but they never shot well from outside the entire weekend (1-11 I think Saturday night) and that forced them to try and go inside and that was going to be a major problem against both Alvernia and SMC who have great inside players. Also, Braxton turned into a non-factor against SMC (2 points, I think) and when you have to go inside and he isn't playing well or isn't a factor... then a team like RMC is in real trouble.

As for the comments about the fans... yes, SMC student fans are loud, obnoxious, and sometimes overboard... but I haven't seen anything different at say an VWC game or others in the larger region - and I have seen my fair share of bad fans. I actually know the SMC staff has worked to get their crowd to be better fans and considering what it was like to play in any sport just ten years ago at SMC... it has come a long way. And it isn't as bad as some of the D1 schools out there where NOTHING is done at all.

As for them cheering against both teams in the first game Friday night... the students didn't show up until late because the game was going long and they can honestly cheer for who ever they want to cheer for. There is no rule that says otherwise.

I honestly don't think the fans played a major factor in the play of RMC who just didn't have what I know they usually have to win... it is a ashame because I really thought RMC could make a solid run following up on last year's performance and how they finished the year.

[rmc1982]

I've been working all day and just read all the posts......WOULDA,COULDA SHOULDA!!! .....WE GOT BEAT!!With a senior-laden team who should have come to play-we went to sleep, turned the ball over too much, missed layups.....things we SHOULD NOT BE DOING....especially at this time of the year when it's "win or go home"!!The shots didn't drop,SMC was better prepared to play, whatever you want to call it but in the end....WE DIDN'T TAKE CARE OF BID'NESS!!Could the outcome have been different in Crenshaw?....Maybe....but don't make excuses!!They kicked our collective a$$es last night and on last night(when it COUNTED)they were better than us....'Nuff SAID!! We love our kids and especially our seniors, who played their hearts out for us for 4 years and gave us some great memories and will join a large fraternity of basketball alumni and also a great tradition, which will continue(and we expect your a$$es in the seats cheering for these guys left next year just like we cheered for you!)but in  the end, this year at least.....we didn't have enough to finish.......and like I said earlier....the sun will still rise on Jacket basketball tomorrow morning!! GO JACKETS!!.....and GO MARLINS!!

[2RMCFans]

yeah, we appreciate the extra analysis above & are not here to make excuses for our team that played badly in the national tournament.

but in the best interests of dead horses everywhere... it wasn't just the SMC students who were crude, rude and abusive.  we were surrounded by taunting, whooping ADULT SMC fans, including a group of 6-7 grown men who positioned themselves right behind our coaches in the front row of one of our sections.  you know... in Crenshaw, that just isn't done.  And if it ever is, then that's the time for these basketball fans to give it up & stay away.  

we've been in plenty of gyms where we didn't feel very welcome... but this was the first one we've ever been in where the atmosphere in our own small section was openly hostile.  it was shocking & sad for the 7 kids & their families who have this as their last college basketball memory.

GO MARLINS!!!

[algernon]

Thanks for your interesting response, d-mac!  Just a couple of questions/clarifications ...

- The men's committee did try to make some changes... I know there were talks about what to do with the pods/games/hosts... but the trickle-down effect that would have brought the SMC, VWC, Cabrini, Ramapo and possibly other pods into the discussion was going to be too much to overcome three hours after the brackets were announced and major travel changes would have taken place.

Why couldn't they have simply left the all of the pods as they were, but simply move the St. Mary's / RMC pod games to RMC?

It would have been good if the NCAA committee had acknowledged its mistake, changed the location to Crenshaw, and paid the deposits made on buses not used or whatever needed to be done.  The Yellow Jackets (#2 in the South) had a much stronger SOS than St. Mary's (#2 in the Mid-Atlantic) and were 3-3 against regionally-ranked teams, whereas St. Mary's had played only one game against a regionally-ranked team in their entire season (in which they solidly defeated Franklin and Marshall, an overrated team that the Marlins barely got by last night).

(FYI - SMC actually played four games against regionally ranked teams... going 3-1 - F&M and Wesley.)

I saw that St. Mary's went 2-1 against Wesley, but didn't include Wesley as one of their regionally-ranked opponents because Wesley dropped out of the Final NCAA Regional Rankings before the tournament bids were made.

[FISHTANKFAN]

 Trust me DeWayne,  I know Macedo plays to win.   He will do his homework and have the Marlins ready.  I said it 5 years ago before they won a national title.  Sometimes it is the intangibles that win games and the Marlins have those.   Macedo has instilled in his players that any team can be beaten.  All I am saying is that it will not be an easy task. On paper, they are the underdogs. The Marlins are outsized and have less experience.  Williams is only the beginning of a hard road.  I am not saying it cannot be done, but his team is very young and it will not be easy.  I have followed Macedo's career for many years, since his playing days at Wilkes through his early coaching years at Wilkes and VWC.  I am in awe of his abilities as both.  I Know they will never quit, I never even considered it.  I am thrilled that they will have a chance to move on.

[hasanova]

I also think that RMC should have been hosting. They won the ODAC. Point blank period. The last couple of years, the way the ODAC has been, any team that won that leauge (save for the 09 VWC squad) should have hosted it. Also, homecourt advantage does play a large part in winning a ballgame. The VWC players didn't have to break their normal routine.. got to chill in their dorms with their friends, families, playing video games, watching ESPN etc etc... anything they normally do during home games, they did it and won both games this weekend. When you are able to play a big game in your comfort zone it does wonders for your confidence. They didnt have to get used to a new area or a different gym or a raucous student section going against them. There is no telling what would have happened had VWC been facing that 9 point deficit in the 2nd half AT F&M. The backing of the home crowd played a part in that game.. and contrary to the beliefs of the F&M posters who had something to say about the VWC student section being "crappy" and "lousy" and that they showed no support, the Batten was rocking, and they sure did shut you guys up.

Thank goodness they didn't have to study. 

etc etc encompasses a wide range of activities, including studying haha

Just trying to lighten it up a little.    Good luck to the Marlins in Massachusetts next weekend!

[Ralph Turner]

Thanks for your interesting response, d-mac!  Just a couple of questions/clarifications ...


I saw that St. Mary's went 2-1 against Wesley, but didn't include Wesley as one of their regionally-ranked opponents because Wesley dropped out of the Final NCAA Regional Rankings before the tournament bids were made.

This year, "once ranked, always ranked" applied.   

[r.w. mcnickels]

There is no telling what would have happened had VWC been facing that 9 point deficit in the 2nd half AT F&M. The backing of the home crowd played a part in that game.. and contrary to the beliefs of the F&M posters who had something to say about the VWC student section being "crappy" and "lousy" and that they showed no support, the Batten was rocking, and they sure did shut you guys up.

DeWayne, that was only one F&M poster, and one whose opinion should be taken with a grain of salt. There was a great atmosphere at VWC last night and a lot of energy coming from the student section. Good luck at Williams.

[LustyLarryintheToilet]

There is no telling what would have happened had VWC been facing that 9 point deficit in the 2nd half AT F&M. The backing of the home crowd played a part in that game.. and contrary to the beliefs of the F&M posters who had something to say about the VWC student section being "crappy" and "lousy" and that they showed no support, the Batten was rocking, and they sure did shut you guys up.

DeWayne, that was only one F&M poster, and one whose opinion should be taken with a grain of salt. There was a great atmosphere at VWC last night and a lot of energy coming from the student section. Good luck at Williams.

The comment was made on a centennial board, and from what i can tell of that gym, its just a different atmosphere.  The gym structure of VaWes isnt conducive to a phenomenal advantage (case in point, i'd give a lot more validity to the student section causing helping fandm miss free throws if the students were behind the basket as opposed to just a dancing Marlin).  VaWes was victorious mainly because they played betterdown the stretch.

[Pat Coleman]

Why couldn't they have simply left the all of the pods as they were, but simply move the St. Mary's / RMC pod games to RMC?

This would have resulted in Cabrini hosting a pod while the team ahead of it in the regional rankings, St. Mary's, was on the road. This was seen as not being any better.

I saw that St. Mary's went 2-1 against Wesley, but didn't include Wesley as one of their regionally-ranked opponents because Wesley dropped out of the Final NCAA Regional Rankings before the tournament bids were made.

This still counts as a regionally ranked opponents. Once ranked, always ranked.

[FISHTANKFAN]

You just don't get it Larry.  The reason the Marlins played better down the stretch was because they were at home, in their familiar surroundings, in front of their fans.  They know every inch of that floor, every rim and how the ball bounces on it.  Would F&M have been more comfortable playing at home?? You can bet on it.  Has F&M won more games at home or on the road?  The structure of a gym is not what makes home court important.  It is how it makes the players feel and perform.  It's like sleeping in a hotel vs. sleeping in your own bed.  End of story.

[kate]

Good luck to the Virginia Wesleyan Marlins this weekend as they take on Williams!  Just really want the team that beat our Delaware Valley College Aggies to "take it all" - we'll be watching live video!  Have fun!  Your coach played for Wilkes in our MAC Freedom League.  Double connection there.  Go Get Em!!! 

[78rmc]

A genuine answer:  Home court has a psychological and a real advantage.  Players are more familiar with the rims, any dead or blind spots ,the lighting. familiarity of the court, home crowd fans, a confidence factor etc etc etc.  Why have the Marlins won 114 games at home vs. 18 losses in the last 11 years?  WHY do all sports teams want the home court or home field advantage?  Why would the Celtics win 84 straight games at home?  Home court cannot be measured in points, but it can effect the final score.  Why did the Marlins win a national title on only their second trip to the NCAA's under Macedo???  They were given a very outside chance of even winning a few games that year (ask Pat Coleman to verify this ) A bad crowd can shake up any opposing team.  The RED SOX know how to play the Green Monster,and every nook and cranny of Fenway. Why do they wins more home games than away?   It is immeasurable.

Thanks, but I want a real number.  How many points?

The fact that home teams win was covered nicely in the Jan 17th Sports Illustrated by Tobias Moskowitz and Jon Wertheim in the fascinating article "What's Really Behind Home Field Advantage?".   

I'd say 16 points!

[LustyLarryintheToilet]

You just don't get it Larry.  The reason the Marlins played better down the stretch was because they were at home, in their familiar surroundings, in front of their fans.  They know every inch of that floor, every rim and how the ball bounces on it.  Would F&M have been more comfortable playing at home?? You can bet on it.  Has F&M won more games at home or on the road?  The structure of a gym is not what makes home court important.  It is how it makes the players feel and perform.  It's like sleeping in a hotel vs. sleeping in your own bed.  End of story.

Interesting points fish, my retort is this: Do you think noise plays any factor in a home court setting?  You can look all throughout college basketball and certain gyms produce a better home court advantage than others because it feels like a prison (the pit, octagon of doom, or my personal favorite the USD gym a few years back).  Setting is important

[donho]

 To this point I have had not much to say about the NCAA goof-up in regards to R-MC not hosting. While I have seen some good reasons posted and some not so good, I was just going to let it go until I saw the post from d-mac. I think he said, I am not sure the score would have changed( I think that is pretty close to what he said)                                                                                                                                               To that and everyone else on this site I say this, tell all that  bullsh...t to OHIO STATE they just had like a 40  point swing from losing to wisconsin by 10 at Wisconsin, to winning by 28 at home!
Enough said, end of it for me. Nice season for R-MC. Good luck to the MARLINS!