MBB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[Greek Tragedy]

Hubbard announced he's entering the portal.

[thescottharris]

Hubbard announced he's entering the portal.

H-SC is a pretty tough place to get people to come back for a 5th year since they have no graduate programs. So if they graduate in four years there isn't really much of a realistic path towards coming back.

I know lacrosse one year got a guy to come back for their 5th year, but the only reason they were able to do that is because after four years he was a couple classes short of graduating, so he worked in the fall while not going to school then enrolled in the spring semester to take those two classes.

[Macon]

Hubbard announced he's entering the portal.

H-SC is a pretty tough place to get people to come back for a 5th year since they have no graduate programs. So if they graduate in four years there isn't really much of a realistic path towards coming back.

I know lacrosse one year got a guy to come back for their 5th year, but the only reason they were able to do that is because after four years he was a couple classes short of graduating, so he worked in the fall while not going to school then enrolled in the spring semester to take those two classes.

You are correct that there's not a graduate option at HSC, but ironically HSC did have 3 fifth-year players this past season.  Maybe those three players sat out the covid year or pursued a second major.  I'd also add that it seems that Adam Brazil will be back for a fifth year at HSC.  As you suggested, it happens but the options are limited.

Hubbard could come to RMC since they have a graduate program in Physicians Assistant, but as a Visual Arts major, that graduate program may not be a good fit.

As many, or most, DIII programs don't offer graduate programs, it'll be interesting where he ends up.  I wish him luck wherever that may be.

[Greek Tragedy]

I've always wondered if you wanted to play a 5th/Covid year, but you were in line to graduate, why you couldn't just add a minor/major or just a year's worth of electives and come back. A few people I've had conversations with said you can't do that. Apparently you can? I remember reading an article on this guy who went to Whitewater for 10 years. I don't even know how many minors/majors he had and he wasn't a doctor or anything...I don't think.

Also, I don't you had to sit out the Covid year to play another year. Whether you played or not, that year doesn't count.

[CNU85]

I think the NCAA rule is that if you are within 1 semester of graduation, you can underload a final semester and be eligible to play. I also believe the NCAA expanded that to within 2 semesters before graduation as a result of COVID. I'm wondering if it has now reverted back to the 1 semester rule.

Does anyone have better information?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

You don't have to register for the minimum 12 credits in your final semester, if you need fewer credits to graduate.  I know a number of the WBB players just did student teaching in their fifth year, which counts, since its a graduation requirement.

That's the big loophole.  If you have already graduated, but have eligibility left, you can sign up for random classes, but they have to equal a full load each semester.

It's especially helpful for football players - they can save one class - take it in the fall, while playing, and graduate mid-year.  Basketball, going over two semesters, is tougher.

[scottiedoug]

isn't this a "pay to play" scheme where student athletes with money can afford tuition and poor ones cannot? Of course with D3 that is pretty much the deal anyway.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

That's how college works.  You pay tuition, you get eligibility.

[scottiedoug]

Of course that is how college works. I only note that the usual advantages wealthy schools have in recruiting and retention continues in the ways student athletes can get a fifth year.

[jknezek]

Ferrum announces they are moving to D2. I suspect the D2 competition, way fewer schools in the area, is a hook they hope to leverage. Like E&H. It's certainly not been their athletic prowess.

[y_jack_lok]

Ferrum announces they are moving to D2. I suspect the D2 competition, way fewer schools in the area, is a hook they hope to leverage. Like E&H. It's certainly not been their athletic prowess.

Can you explain what you mean by the sentence I folded above?

[jknezek]

There are way fewer D2 schools in SW Va than D3. So if you want a hook, or a way to stand out from the crowd of small to midsize liberal arts schools in VA, going D2 might be a possibility. I've long believed that's why E&H went D2. Especially when you are so enrollment dependent.

[y_jack_lok]

^^^ Hmmmm... So less competition for the D2 subset of student athletes (as opposed to the D3 subset) who might want stay in SW Virginia rather than go out of state to play their sport?

[jknezek]

Yes. Though I suspect the subset has significant overlap. It's more having the ability to offer athletic scholarships. There is a real brag factor for students and parents in getting an athletic scholarship, even if the sum total of financial assistance, or the end result paid, isn't really different whether it is an athletic scholarship or some other kind of tuition assistance.

I know I've seen here in AL where kids will go D2 vs D3 and the parents are justifying all those years of private baseball coaching or expensive travel ball because little Timmy got a scholarship. But they are paying basically the same as the D3 school offered.

[y_jack_lok]

^^^ Thanks. That overlap certainly exists, but when D3 and D2 men's basketball teams play each other the D2 team wins the majority of the time. At least that was borne out over a number of years when a longtime poster on these boards, hopefan, was tracking D3 matchups against all other levels of competition. He has since retired to Florida, where there are no D3 schools, so that effort was abandoned at the end of the 2019-2020 season. Here are the final stats that year:

FINAL 2019-20 Win Loss D3 vs non D3   

D3 versus:      
                                 W         L      
NCAA-D1                   0          13      
NCAA-D2                   12          25      
NAIA-D1                     2          4      
NAIA-D2                     31          40      
NCCAA-D1                   11          1      
NCCAA-D2                   44          14      
USCAA                        77          16      
Other                           17          0      

I guess my point is that it's not just the scholarship that attracts kids to D2. It's also the higher level of competition.

But the sample size of games between D3 and D2 is pretty small. And Matt Snyder of the D3Datacast posted this Tweet yesterday showing the Massey rankings of ODAC and Conference Carolinas (where Ferrum is going) teams.

https://twitter.com/FFTMAG/status/1776329297449390465

By the Massey measure, the top three ODAC teams (H-SC, RMC, and Guilford) rank higher than 12 of the 14 Conference Carolinas teams. But, what would happen if some of those teams actually met on the court? We'll probably never know.