MBB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[tigerfanalso]

Forty Four

You're welcome !!!!

I think people have forgotten what their behavior was like when the were 18 to 22 years of age. I know mine was not perfect all the time, particularly on the fields of athletics. I played as hard as I could, usually by the rules, but I had my moments and I certainly would not appreciate being judged as a person during those moments. Bottom line, college kids are not fully matured and don't always have control of their emotions and do use poor judgement on occassion. Leave it at that !!!! Who are we to judge ?

[Jacketlawyer]

Forty Four

You're welcome !!!!

I think people have forgotten what their behavior was like when the were 18 to 22 years of age. I know mine was not perfect all the time, particularly on the fields of athletics. I played as hard as I could, usually by the rules, but I had my moments and I certainly would not appreciate being judged as a person during those moments. Bottom line, college kids are not fully matured and don't always have control of their emotions and do use poor judgement on occassion. Leave it at that !!!! Who are we to judge ?

TFA, I think we judge only to create a standard, or bar, to aspire to, nothing more.

[algernon]

they were great both games and handled themselves very well. that being said it is the coaches responsibilty to teach/direct the guys to shake hands. they didnt do it. i think the coaches are more to blame than the kids. as a coach myself, we have to assure that the right things need to be done. i am sure macedo just forgot to remind them.

Coach Macedo either failed to adequately instruct the players about the importance of acting like champions, whether they won or lost, or he was somewhere else when the players failed to do what they needed to do.

The Marlins were not the first team to lose a national championship game.  They needed to stand up and shake hands, as other extremely disappointed national runnerup teams have done .....

Despite their mistake, ODAC fans are extremely proud of what the Marlins have accomplished over the past 2 seasons.  They dominated the ODAC, beat a team as good as Guilford on 3 separate occasions, gained revenge against Averett and Hampden-Sydney in the post-season, brought a nasty end to Mississippi College's season, and were only a game away from winning back-to-back national championships!!    Their season will long be remembered.

[tigerfanalso]

Jacketlawyer

I feel certain that is your objective and probably some other posters as well, but I think some are seizing an opportunity to be a little too critical.
we all support and desire sportsmanship but one incident does not define character nor class and I think some have used this situation to chast stones down I64. Thats my point ... Lets keep things in prospective.

Any word from Ashland ? Coach Rhoades going to be OK ?

[diehardfan]

but I think some are seizing an opportunity to be a little too critical

The people who made the comments were 1) David Collinge to me at the Final Four, 2) initially me on this board as a very neutral fan, 3) Pat Coleman (in his Salem wrapup article) and a whole lot of people who have no motivation or reason to cast stones at a quality DIII program. However, there is one common thread. We're all people who have a lot of time, effort and emotion invested in this whole thing we call DIII Basketball and I think I can safely speak for everyone when I say that I don't like it when people don't live up to the ideals. If I want to see poor sportsmanship, I can turn on my TV and watch a DI or NBA game, thank you very much. I don't have to shell out 700-800 dollars on a plane flight, hotel, rental car, tickets to watch it live in Salem.

Maybe this comes from having a father who is a world renown Tae Kwon Do master and teacher (earlier this year the VA State congress passed a resolution honoring him for his accomplishments and service).... but I wholeheartedly believe that the primary purpose of sports is build character. It's not to have fun, or provide entertainment (although hopefully those things happen), or build fitness (cause lets face is, college sports are not healthy for the body, it's an obvious example of too much of a good thing being a bad thing). DIII sports are all about what it teaches these young college students and how they use that knowledge later in life. 99.9% of these guys aren't going to ever be paid for their athletic ability. The only way these hours upon hours of work mean ANYTHING 20 years from now is if it makes them better teachers, doctors, politicians, etc. If character and sportsmanship aren't on the tip of everyones tongues and the front cover of every play book, then what are we doing?

When another team beats up on my team of COURSE I think it sucks. But I'll be ashamed of my guys if they don't respond to the loss well. I'd be ashamed of myself if I, as a fan, did anything but congratulate the opposing players and fans and coaches for ripping us to shreds. It's pretty normal for me to do things like give another CCIW player a standing ovation for a good pass or basket, even when they're playing our team. I'll be right there congratulating the IWU team after a heartbreaking loss at the Shirk which took a playoff bid that seemed all but ours, ala 2003-2004. I'll give Chris Martin (former Elmhurst star) a standing ovation for an amazing pass even if he leads his team to a 30pt victory over mine. And while I love my team more than the normal fan amount, I do that because I can take a step back and say, "I love DIII basketball, and I love to see it done right."

If we're really in this DIII basketball thing for the love of the game, we should be able to see good basketball, like Amherst, and stand up and say, "Wow that was amazing. The team that deserved to win, won." *Clap, clap, clap.* If not only because it's true, this should be done because it's the right thing to do.

I'm not willing to cast stones. I'm not even going to pretend that I never shoved someone when the refs weren't looking in little league basketball because they wouldn't get off me or they were talking their ear off.   It's one thing to admit that we're human and make mistakes. I'm all for that. I'm hugely flawed. I can write the textbook on being flawed.

However, we absolutely, always, must demand better. We must demand better of ourselves, our kids, the players and teams and coaches that we support, the people in authority over us... everyone.

People tend to think these ideas are mutually exclusive. They're not. It's okay to be aware of your humanity and strive to be more. It's realistic and idealistic all at once.... but because it has both those components, change is possible.

Low expectations are dangerous. I don't use that word lightly at all. Have low expectations of people, and they will meet them. Having low expectations has never made the world a better place. Having high expectations doesn't always make it a better place either, but it makes it a better place a whooole lot more often than not having any expectations.

In closing, my life scripture passage includes this verse that seems particularly relevant to this discussion..... Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize - Phil 3:13-14

[VigoTheCarpathian]

All the way live from the NESCAC board its vigoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...

Let me break this debate down for you right quick.  I agree with those who say it goes back to the coach.  You can say what you want about the team's warmups.  (they looked ridiculous to someone who had never seen them before...cocky doesn't begin to describe it.)  You can be cocky and still show some sportsmanship.  The head coach needed to get his guys on their feet...whether you walk over to the other team or not, when someone is coming over to shake your hand...you stand up.  The circumstances make vwc look even worse by comparison...

Now, I don't know this coach at all...but let me just say again how it looked from someone who hadn't seen this team play before.  Let me bring everyone back to Dan O'Shea's fourth foul.  The game had been called completely inconsistently up until this point but both teams were in the double bonus somewhere around the 8.5 minute mark.  The moment the whistle is blown...on a very picky foul, the vwc head coach turns to the crowd and leads them in a mocking applause of the refs for making the call.  At this point his team was down 20.  The cstv announcers made reference to how ridiculous the coach looked at the time...they also didn't point out the fact that on generally every play one of his guards would either palm the ball or travel.  Suffice to say, his team is down twenty (and maybe both teams had gripes,)  it's clear that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree in the case of vwc.

and diehardfan...my dad could beat up your dad    8)

[diehardfan]

and diehardfan...my dad could beat up your dad    8)

Are you sure? My dad was undefeated welterweight Asian champion in the days before there was a World Championship for TKD, was inducted into the World Tae Kwon Do Hall of Fame. He has trained numerous national champions and was asked to train the US Olympic team but he refused because my mom didn't want to move to Colorado. (Having been to Colorado many times in my adulthood, this was definitely a mistake. ) Once, after seeing him kick through a set of eightish cinder blocks and other craziness, a USA Today article was published stating "In the world of Tae Kwon Do, H. K. Lee is a Superstar." He has been on the cover of Martial Arts magazines 3 times. He performed at a benefit memorial for Bruce Lee put on by Bruce Lee's wife Linda shortly after Bruce Lee died. Just saying...  8) There are some pretty fun old school video clips here: http://www.hkleetkd.com/movies.htm

Of course, in the spirit of sportsmanship, he would never tell you all that stuff. Strike one: shoving that cocky girl in little league basketball. Strike two: bragging about my dad. ROFL!

[sludge]

OK, diehard fan, I'm convinced.  Guilford did suck it up an d shake hands with VWC after their very disappointing loss to VWC in the E-Eight, even after their exhausting 3-OT effort of the previous evening.  I didn't see the VWC - Amherst post game, but it sounds like Amherst both beat the ODAC, and outclassed it.

We'll do better.

[rebeltiger]

On to something else, I think "handshakegate" has had its 15 minutes.  I wouldn't post this as I do not like rumors but I will to try to turn the discussion to something else, particularly next year. 

From a friend with ties to the University of Richmond athletic department, if Chris Mooney leaves UR for Princeton (he is a Princeton alum and a disciple of the Princeton style offense), Mike Rhoads' name is on the list. 

I did not take this as a suprise as I know for a fact (not rumor) he is well respected in the coaching profession.  I would imagine that being local to the Richmond area and with his record of success, he may have even had his name mentioned when Wainwright left.  It just seems interesting to me to hear anything in light of the "perceived" issues ongoing at RMC.

[algernon]

diehardfan .... Your post was so well-written! On top of that, what you said was so important.  Definitely a 4-point play, in my book!

VigoTheCarpathian:  Thanks for your observations.  I assume a videotape of the game would show that what you have said is true.  If so, the "tree" was responding poorly to the trouncing of his team.

Coaches and teams make major mistakes.  But you can learn from them and move on to do better in the future.

[Jacketlawyer]

From a friend with ties to the University of Richmond athletic department, if Chris Mooney leaves UR for Princeton (he is a Princeton alum and a disciple of the Princeton style offense), Mike Rhoads' name is on the list. 

I did not take this as a suprise as I know for a fact (not rumor) he is well respected in the coaching profession.  I would imagine that being local to the Richmond area and with his record of success, he may have even had his name mentioned when Wainwright left.  It just seems interesting to me to hear anything in light of the "perceived" issues ongoing at RMC.

Hmmmm, this would not be the end of the world for me, as I went to law school at the University of Richkids, so I support the Spiders.  It would also be a logical next step for Rhoades.  But I'm going to be watching this situation very closely

[oldfish]

I am really in awe of the effort that many of you have put into ripping VWC since the championship game.  Please allow this to act as my brief rebuttal to some of the criticism.

1.  Die hard fan - How can you begin to say "I’m not willing to cast stones" when that is all that you have done.  If you believe that the VWC program is developing players who lack character, sportsmanship or integrity I will most certainly challenge you on that point.   To make the damaging and hurtful  accusations (or insinuations) that you have made about the VWC players/program due to a few minor incidents is certainly irresponsible on your part.  I would expect more from someone who is so self-aware of their own flaws.  There are many components of "character" Diehardfan.  Apparently Tae Kwon Do doesn't teach compassion or understanding.  I don’t think that I am speaking out of turn when I say that there will not be any hard feelings if you boycott all VWC games from now on as watching them effects your delicate sensibilities.

2. Vigothepathetic- I will take a "ridiculous" Coach Macedo any day of the week.  Besides being an excellent basketball coach (I’ll let his record speak for itself) and mentor for young men, I know that he has the utmost respect from his peers in the ODAC. 

3. Algernon- I find it hard to believe that a few of VWC's players not shaking hands after a tough loss amounts to a "major" mistake.   I just assume that you use a different criteria for labeling your mistakes in life.  Minor then major...colossal or extraordinary above that, topped off with stupendous.  So a "major" mistake really isn't that bad?

4. Jacketlawyer - I really don't have anything negative to say to you...I usually like most of your posts.  This is very surprising to me b/c you went to RMC.   One question, do all Maconites (anyone from RMC) sleep in their blue blazers? (BTW...this was my sad attempt to be humorous...im sorry jacketlawyer)

[jdubyadubya]

Bravo, Oldfish, bravo!

[Jacketlawyer]

4. Jacketlawyer - I really don't have anything negative to say to you...I usually like most of your posts.  This is very surprising to me b/c you went to RMC.   One question, do all Maconites (anyone from RMC) sleep in their blue blazers? (BTW...this was my sad attempt to be humorous...im sorry jacketlawyer)

I figured as much!   To answer your question, not all the time.  You have to go to the dry cleaners too much! 

[diehardfan]

1.  Die hard fan - How can you begin to say "I'm not willing to cast stones" when that is all that you have done.  If you believe that the VWC program is developing players who lack character, sportsmanship or integrity I will most certainly challenge you on that point. To make the damaging and hurtful  accusations (or insinuations) that you have made about the VWC players/program due to a few minor incidents is certainly irresponsible on your part.

Oldfish - I questioned one particular action, I haven't made any comments about anything else that VA Wes did. I didn't say anything about integrity. I didn't say anything about any of the things that bothered other people (like the warmups) cause they just frankly didn't bother me at all. I don't think that that one particular action demonstrated a lack of integrity. The issue has very little to do with integrity. That one particular action DID demonstrate a lack of sportsmanship. As I've made generalizations about sportsmanship and what it should include, and why it's important, I've never attacked VAWes as completely lacking sportsmanship, I've just used their one particular incident of lack of sportsmanship as an object lesson.

As I stated before, being aware of your own humanity and forgiving of other people's humanity does not preclude the necessity of demanding better of ourselves and everyone else. "It's okay to be aware of your humanity and strive to be more. It's realistic and idealistic all at once.... but because it has both those components, change is possible." I'm sorry if you believe these ideas are mututally exclusive, because it's the source of all your frustrations with me, and reason you have felt it necessary to attack my character.  I can enjoy Va Wesleyan Basketball, respect the caliber of their players, the effort they put on to the court, and the behavior they generally show while having significant disappointment for a particular action.

The very action of "requesting and expecting that the coaches and players get why that's wrong and do better next time" is laced with the understanding that they already know what good sportsmanship looks like, and realize that they need to do better. If I thought they and their fans were hopeless thugs who had no idea what sportsmanship looked like, I wouldn't have even bothered. Please, please don't confuse my honest frustration over one particular thing as anything more than that.

And, in closing, I hope you forgive me for continuing to watch Virginia Wesleyan basketball despite the fact that you apparently don't want me to because it is, well, awesome basketball, and I am a fan of excellent DIII basketball in all forms and have enjoy watching them play over the last several years.