MBB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[rmc6thman]

First time poster, LONG TIME reader.  Just wanted to comment on a few things heading in to the tourney this weekend.  I think that RMC may have a tough time getting past HSC for a third time, but I think they will be up to the task.  Just hope that they do not look past the Tigers to a possible third shot at knocking off VWC. 

odacfan, I agree with you on Short, he is a tough kid, and has been a true constant for RMC this year.  I would look for some good things from him.  Rmc will need to shoot well, and that will start with him being able to put guys in the position to take good shots. He is an ODAC veteran now, and the true leader of that team...

My opinion on the loss of Carlson is that it has helped that team gel better.  It has given some young guys a shot at more minutes (Pugh, Voelkel, Jones) and they have responded.  Jordan Brown is the real deal, and he will be a constant at RMC, and a nightmare for ODAC teams for the next 3 years. 

I think it is going to take a run to the final for RMC to get in the NCAA tourney, which certainly can be done.  I would love nothing more than to see the Jackets take the title.  It would be a great reward for Jeremy Dixon, the lone senior on that team, who has come to work inside for the Jackets, despite being constantly under sized against the rest of the ODAC. 

Looking forward to the weekend...

[Brian Hamilton]

RMC6thman,

I think that the way the game is called will be a huge factor in determinig the winner of the HSC-RMC game on Friday night.  When the officials let the players play and don't call hand checks, that favors RMC's in-your-face, tough defense.  If the officials call it tight, that favors HSC more as long as Kaase doesn't get in foul trouble.  One thing is for sure, it should be a very exciting game.  I for one am hoping that RMC doesn't get a chance against VWC again and that the Tigers can eliminate VWC in the 2nd round for the 2nd straight year!  Should be an interesting tournament no matter what.

[rmc6thman]

Brian,

I agree, the refs have almost always dictated how RMC-HSC games are played.  It will certainly favor the Jackets if they are allowed to be a little more physical with the Tigers' shooters, and mix it up a little more inside.  Ball pressure is the key to that defense, and if the refs are calling hand checks and weak fouls all game, it will (a) make for a long, choppy game, and (b) more than likely favor HSC.

[Jacketlawyer]

Billy, I'm sorry you didn't appreciate my opinion, but you didn't have to get personal.  Love your movies.   

Anyway, back to basketball.    Not liking the R-M/H-S pairing so soon after a game like the one in Ashland, but we've seen this before.  Just want R-M to remember Lynchburg in the first round a few years back.

[ODACfan4life]

I am always fascinated by the different perceptions that fans have regarding referees.  There ought to be a college psychology course devoted to that topic.

But the subject of the "hand check" is one that is a pet peeve of mine.  Don't get me wrong, I love a hard fought defensive game.  I firmly beleive that defense wins championships.  But, I despise what has happened to the purity of the offensive game as a result of officials who see the "hand check" as an incidental part of playing physical defense.  I could not disagree more.  

Anyone who has played the game knows what is meant by a "hand check":  an open hand or even the back of a hand nudging against and/or impeding the progress of a penetrating dribbler; or, an open hand or one or two backhands constantly nudging against and/or impeding the progress of a cutter off the ball attempting to get open off a screen for a shot; or, banging and bumping a dribbler who is just trying to beat pressure.  There are other variations, and they all create such an advantage for the defender and usually equalize the playing field between a talented offensive player and, to use a hockey term, a "mucker and a grinder".  Allowing these kinds of hand checks give such an advantage to the defender and is wrong and should not be a matter of discretion for any official.  (Staying on the hockey theme, the NHL finally decided 2 years ago to put an end to the clutching and grasping that was allowed to diminish the skills of offensive players and was ruining the excitement of its product).

No game should be determined based on whether the officials decide they are going to call, or not going to call the proverbial "hand check".  Hand checking is not "playing physical defense" nor is it a "weak foul".  Hand checking is a foul that gives an advantage to the defender and should be called a foul - period.  It is more than just an incidental part of the game and in most cases has a direct affect on the outcome and should not be allowed - period.  If a player is not quick enough or capable enough to defend without hands, then he deserves to sit and watch because of foul trouble.  

Okay, soap box has concluded.  

[Pat Coleman]

first time poster, but longer time reader, and love the site. 

Welcome!

[rmc6thman]

ODACfan - I can respect your opinion on hand checking, and I agree to an extent that it does affect and impede offensive players at times.  That said, I also think we can agree that referees dictate the extent to which a defender is allowed to make contact with an offensive player during play.

Bottom line, it happens, and it is not always called.  Weak or not, I agree that it can affect a game.  What I was trying to establish is the fact that RMC is a tough, ball pressure defense, that will get in your face.  Contact is going to happen on both ends, and always does in this matchup.  I think what the referees decide to allow is going to play a factor in the game, always does, whether they are calling it right or not.

[sludge]

can anybody derail a Guilford v. Va. Wesleyan final?

Yes.  Anyone on either side of the bracket could do that. 
For instance, if you think Guilford is going to overlook EMU, you're dreaming. 

[allsky7]

Final standings on the abbreviated Pick'ems:

bhamilton                 38-10        10-1
jacketlawyer             35-12         7-2
steeleyglen              31-14          6-3
jaydubyadubya        32-16          9-2
baselinejam             28-16          6-3
rmc1982                   16- 7           dnp
roomie                      15-9            dnp
oldfish                       16-10         dnp
44                              7-4            dnp
scottie                       11-13        dnp

final thoughts:
brian it had to be tough to pick RMC over your beloved Tigers (nice pick tho')

is Swickwrath out at Lynchburg? My crystal ball says yes, but can ANYONE win there?

can anybody derail a Guilford v. Va. Wesleyan final?

only 2 go to the "dance"...

the system is what it is...you think the E&H player who set the record for three's made would rather win more than he loses or maybe would like to play defense at least 1 possession per game or possibly be playing in the tournament? E&H was a factor before the "system".

catch Bridgewater in the tournament if you can...just sayin'!

Will the fall of Sydney continue? What's Bubba's future Tiger fans?

Have a great tournament guys...good luck to all...I am out!

    Random thoughts:  Tigers beat R-MC Friday in Salem to knock Jackets from NCAA.  Bubba's future at H-S is fine for the immediate future (as long as he chooses to stay) Shaver's act was a tough one to follow. Guilford won't get upset in the first round this year. (That one for you Hasa  , Swickrath gone at LC. SOMEONE can win at LC but will be tough. LAX is king. SHAME on Brian for picking the Jackets over the Tigers. SHAME....SHAME. So what if you got it right!! 

     See some of you folks in Salem Friday.......GO TIGERS!!!  8)

[ODACfan4life]

rmc6thman - I was not addressing specifically the RMC/HSC game but just the hand check issue generally.  I agree that the reality is that sometimes the referees let it happen, and then sometimes they won't.  I guess some might say that is what makes the games interesting!!

[Billy Jack]

For all of you memory-challenged," astute" observers of the game:  the system has beaten the beloved "real" basketball teams of every ODAC conference member with the exception of Guilford . The system beat Greensboro twice this year (yes, the same Greensboro team that beat Guilford ).  E&H deviated from the system as the year progressed and abandoned it entirely during the latter part of the year.  It is difficult to value the opinion of those who do not (or are unable to) pay attention.

[ODACfan4life]

If 3-15 in the conference (7-18 overall) and beating Greensboro twice this year, and beating every ODAC team at least once over a span of several years is your measuring stick for a successful system, then by all means stick with it.  However, those kinds of numbers have gotten alot of other "systems" fired.

[old_lion]

But the subject of the "hand check" is one that is a pet peeve of mine.  Don't get me wrong, I love a hard fought defensive game.  I firmly beleive that defense wins championships.  But, I despise what has happened to the purity of the offensive game as a result of officials who see the "hand check" as an incidental part of playing physical defense.  I could not disagree more.  

Anyone who has played the game knows what is meant by a "hand check":  an open hand or even the back of a hand nudging against and/or impeding the progress of a penetrating dribbler; or, an open hand or one or two backhands constantly nudging against and/or impeding the progress of a cutter off the ball attempting to get open off a screen for a shot; or, banging and bumping a dribbler who is just trying to beat pressure.  There are other variations, and they all create such an advantage for the defender and usually equalize the playing field between a talented offensive player and, to use a hockey term, a "mucker and a grinder".  Allowing these kinds of hand checks give such an advantage to the defender and is wrong and should not be a matter of discretion for any official.  (Staying on the hockey theme, the NHL finally decided 2 years ago to put an end to the clutching and grasping that was allowed to diminish the skills of offensive players and was ruining the excitement of its product).

No game should be determined based on whether the officials decide they are going to call, or not going to call the proverbial "hand check".  Hand checking is not "playing physical defense" nor is it a "weak foul".  Hand checking is a foul that gives an advantage to the defender and should be called a foul - period.  It is more than just an incidental part of the game and in most cases has a direct affect on the outcome and should not be allowed - period.  If a player is not quick enough or capable enough to defend without hands, then he deserves to sit and watch because of foul trouble.  

Okay, soap box has concluded.  

I agree completely!

And here's an aspect of what you are discussing that I find particularly vexing ... the "discretion of the officials" you refer to tends to penalize the better players. In other words, if you fall down or lose the ball, usually they'll call it. But if you are skilled enough to stay on your feet despite all the bumping and banging ... it is sometimes unbelievable what the officials will let a defender get away with.

And, the officials let the other side of this issue go too often, as well. If the ball handler is using his off arm to push off the defender, they need to call that too.

Heck, I want to watch skilled basketball ... not a wrestling match!

[eagleslam]

Billy Jack...

Yes.  Weinz made more three point shots in a single season than anyone in ODAC history.  Four more than the previous record.  But you failed to mention another record.  Weinz attempted 299 three point shots.  The previous record was Kurt Axe with 245.  So to make 4 more than the previous record, he had to take 54 more than the previous record!  Those numbers do not make him a great shooter.  I'm actually amazed that he had the arm strength to shoot that many times!

And if "the system" works so well, why is the team that uses it not playing in the ODAC Tournament?  Why is it that the team who uses it only won 3 games in the ODAC this year?  Oh, was I paying too much attention to the acutal records and the standings for your liking?  Did I astutely observe those records well enough for you?

[baselinejam]

For all of you memory-challenged," astute" observers of the game:  the system has beaten the beloved "real" basketball teams of every ODAC conference member with the exception of Guilford . The system beat Greensboro twice this year (yes, the same Greensboro team that beat Guilford ).  E&H deviated from the system as the year progressed and abandoned it entirely during the latter part of the year.  It is difficult to value the opinion of those who do not (or are unable to) pay attention.

Let me get this straight. The system was so effective that your team abandoned it during the later part of the year. You obviously love your team; which is great. However, you need to develop some perspective. W&L beat Guilford a couple of years ago - that ain't helping them too much today. I think the W&L players love playing you. This year we were deeper and had better athletes and got to put up some ridiculous numbers against E&H. If the system is so great; how come the more talented teams aren't adopting it? The AASAA offense seems to be getting many schools to use it, from high school to the pros. The 'system' seems to be used only when a team doesn't have a lot of size or athleticism. So, as I said before when E&H could run 3 or 4 lines at us and had better athletes it seemed to work. Now it doesn't. What will they run next year?