MBB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[yj424]

Don't know what's up with the Richmond Times Dispatch. Their tiny write up has Bridgewater beating Shenadoah 59-58 on a Traywick free throw in regulation! This paper is constantly making errors in regards to DIII scores this season, both men's and women's. You'll read the little story and score on one page then find different scores listed on the scoreboard page.

[Jacketlawyer]

Don't know what's up with the Richmond Times Dispatch. Their tiny write up has Bridgewater beating Shenadoah 59-58 on a Traywick free throw in regulation! This paper is constantly making errors in regards to DIII scores this season, both men's and women's. You'll read the little story and score on one page then find different scores listed on the scoreboard page.

The RT-D just doesn't cover DIII sports as well as they used to, and the Lynchburg paper doesn't cover them at all.

[algernon]

I however have to disagree with you on the 2007 Tigers championship team though (I do not think they were an overly talented team either but were definitely a lot more talented and deeper then this years team, not to mention had some pretty good players).  Green was not a huge "light up the score board player" your right but he was a great floor general and leader who really knew how to control the tempo of the game, Lawton is a solid pg who I think has "some" of those same qualities but by no means would I say he is more of a "pure" pg then Green was. Yes Edwards was a talented and special player who especially towards the end of that 07 season was this year's version of king. In 07 king was also around and a very talented freshman he was who if you don't remember was starting games towards the end of the year over the sr prehmus because of his more consistent play.  Which left a 4 time all conference player coming in off the bench in prehmus.  Murray also started for that team and gave them that "hybrid" type player.  He was talented but by no means a overly talented player; gave them that tough, hard nosed player with that "warrior" type mentality that I think all great teams need.  When you break it down that team had 3 all-ODAC performers (and that is not counting the injured Kaase) as well as Green and Murray who should have both garnered that title as well.  That's a pretty talented team if you ask me.     

I am in huge agreement with what you have said, ODACHOOPS.  The 2007 championship team was a very talented team, for the reasons you state.  They beat the Marlins in the semifinal and won the championship because of that.  Tyler Murray never received the ODAC honors he deserved and Matt Green was a very fine point guard.  If you put Tyler Murray, Matt Green, Drew Prehmus, and Mike Edwards on this year's team, all of our current starters except for Turner King would be sitting the bench at the start of the game.

My feeling is that a starting lineup of Turner King, Matt Green, Mike Edwards, Tyler Murray, and maybe Shane Payne .... with Prehmus coming off the bench and getting lots of playing time .... would be 11-1 or 12-0 at this point in the season against the competition we've faced, instead of struggling along at 5-7.

This team will develop, though.

[hasanova]

Don't know what's up with the Richmond Times Dispatch. Their tiny write up has Bridgewater beating Shenadoah 59-58 on a Traywick free throw in regulation! This paper is constantly making errors in regards to DIII scores this season, both men's and women's. You'll read the little story and score on one page then find different scores listed on the scoreboard page.

The RT-D just doesn't cover DIII sports as well as they used to, and the Lynchburg paper doesn't cover them at all.

The Greensboro News & Record is no better.  They list Guilford under "other teams" and almost never show the whole conference standings.  The Quakers were shown with three losses for about a month even though the Davidson game was an exhibition.  When it was corrected to two losses on Wednesday, they said "no games scheduled" for the 7th.  Meanwhile, the Quakers hosted Lynchburg that night.  Sigh!

[tigerfanalso]

Algernon

I agree the team will mature and improve but how long, in your opinion, will it take for Coach Vick to recruit and rebuild ? I know there are no magic wands to be waved and I know it takes time, but what time frame is reasonable for a quality coach to build (rebuild) a program. I would think four years, but I really have no idea. Just curious as to what your opinion might be as you seem to really be tuned into the program.

Good luck to all ODAC teams this weekend.

Go Tigers !!!!!!  

[algernon]

I agree the team will mature and improve but how long, in your opinion, will it take for Coach Vick to recruit and rebuild ? I know there are no magic wands to be waved and I know it takes time, but what time frame is reasonable for a quality coach to build (rebuild) a program. I would think four years, but I really have no idea.

Here are a couple of relevant "program turnarounds":

HSC Basketball:
1983-84:  7-17
1984-85:  13-14
1985-86:  9-16
     ENTER TONY SHAVER
1986-87:  12-13
1987-88:  12-13
1988-89:  21-8 -- ODAC CHAMPS
1989-90:  15-11
1990-91:  21-6
1991-92:  24-6 -- ODAC CHAMPS

HSC Football:
1997:  0-10
1998:  3-7
1999:  1-9
     ENTER MARTY FAVRET
2000:  4-6
2001:  5-5
2002:  8-2
2003:  9-1
2004:  8-2
2005:  8-2
2006:  4-6
2007:  8-3 -- ODAC CHAMPS

With both of these coaches, there was an improved record in the very first year ... and a tremendous record reversal by the third year.

[ODACHOOPS]

Great stats Algernon: The one thing that we have to keep in mind though is that both Shaver and Marty took over bad programs with a bad past (Shaver took over a 9-16 team and Marty took over a 1-9 team, which leaves a lot of room for improvement)..Dee took over a team that was coming off a down year and still had 15 wins.  Strong past, high expectations. 

However with all that said.. Bubba took over at a time when the program and past had been at a very high level and he still managed to keep that level pretty consistent with the Shaver era.  Bottom line is Dee has Bubba to thank (actually probably Chad Warner) for leaving the well dry with talent and recruits after the likes of Kasse, Prehmus, Green, Edwards, Murray

[tigerfanalso]

Algernon

Thanks for your reply. I knew you would an answer with examples to explain. Lets hope the Tigers are back on top sooner than later.

ODAChoops

The well wasn't completely dry; we do have King & Jesse seems to have l potential; but I do understand your point. Vick did not inherit the level of talent that Bubba did.

Coach Vick knows HSC and with his understanding & prior involvment in the program, will serve him well in his recruiting & could help quicken the process. Tony use to give alot of credit to Dee for the quality of the recruiting classes and I hear his assistants are also good recruiters & well contacted.


Should be fun to watch as I certainly enjoyed watching Marty build his program.

[Jacketlawyer]

Algernon

Thanks for your reply. I knew you would an answer with examples to explain. Lets hope the Tigers are back on top sooner than later.

ODAChoops

The well wasn't completely dry; we do have King & Jesse seems to have l potential; but I do understand your point. Vick did not inherit the level of talent that Bubba did.

Coach Vick knows HSC and with his understanding & prior involvment in the program, will serve him well in his recruiting & could help quicken the process. Tony use to give alot of credit to Dee for the quality of the recruiting classes and I hear his assistants are also good recruiters & well contacted.


Should be fun to watch as I certainly enjoyed watching Marty build his program.

I don't think it'll take that long.  Vick will not have the rebuilding issues Marty had, and as you said, Vick knows Hampden-Sydney well.  I don't think it's unrealistic to expect results by next year.

But I also think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves.  There's still a lot of basketball to be played THIS year! 8)

[tigerfanalso]

Jacket

I hope you are correct and I'll hold you to your word on this topic.

By the way; are you still nervous about the game on Wednesday nite ?
I told you you didn't have too much to be concerned about BUT I'd watch out for the rematch (although Macon has played better in our gym the last couple of years than they did in their own).

Cheers !!!!!!!!!

[Jacketlawyer]

I told you you didn't have too much to be concerned about BUT I'd watch out for the rematch (although Macon has played better in our gym the last couple of years than they did in their own).

TFA, this fact is PRECISELY why I was nervous about the game!  I typically don't stress the trips to Fleet as I do to Crenshaw.  But it's also what makes the Rivalry so fun to watch. 8)

[tigerfanalso]

JacketL

Actually I feel better playing you guys in Salem !!!!
It would fun to have those two matched against each other in the 1st round of the ODAC tourney. Plus it would give me a really good reason to get out of the office and out to the Valley !!!

Have a good weekend and Good Luck

[algernon]

Great stats Algernon: The one thing that we have to keep in mind though is that both Shaver and Marty took over bad programs with a bad past (Shaver took over a 9-16 team and Marty took over a 1-9 team, which leaves a lot of room for improvement)..Dee took over a team that was coming off a down year and still had 15 wins.  Strong past, high expectations. 

However with all that said.. Bubba took over at a time when the program and past had been at a very high level and he still managed to keep that level pretty consistent with the Shaver era.  Bottom line is Dee has Bubba to thank (actually probably Chad Warner) for leaving the well dry with talent and recruits after the likes of Kasse, Prehmus, Green, Edwards, Murray.

Good point, that Dee Vick hasn't taken over a losing team, as Shaver and Favret did.  He's taken over a team with a strong past and high expectations, although a team that is no longer nearly as successful as during the Shaver years.  Bubba Smith didn't keep the Tigers at nearly the same level as Tony Shaver, although he continued to keep the Tigers functioning as a winning team -- part of the upper half of the ODAC -- throughout his tenure.  Here's my comparison of the Shaver record and the Smith record:

Shaver's Last Ten Years
1993-94:  22-6, Sweet Sixteen
1994-95:  28-3, ODAC Champs, Elite Eight
1995-96:  17-9
1996-97:  21-7, ODAC Champs, NCAA Tournament
1997-98:  23-6, ODAC Champs, Sweet Sixteen
1998-99:  29-3, ODAC Champs, National Finalists
99-2000:  26-2, NCAA Tournament
2000-01:  24-5, ODAC Champs, NCAA Tournament
2001-02:  23-6, ODAC Champs, NCAA Tournament
2002-03:  28-4, ODAC Champs, Final Four
Shaver's Record:  241-51 (83% win pct.) -- In 10 years, 7 ODAC championships, 5 trips to the Sweet Sixteen, and 2 trips to the Final Four

I've always considered 2003-04 a transition year, with a Tiger squad that was recruited, instructed, molded, and developed by Shaver continuing the Shaver era pattern of constant ODAC championships and NCAA participation.  The stars of that 25-5 team were seniors who had developed together under Shaver for 3 years and were playing only their final year under Smith.  The players who remained from the previous year's Final Four team (Jeff Monroe, Brandon Randall, David Willson, Jason Holman, and Mike Thompson) continued to play Shaver's game and demonstrated senior leadership, determined to get back to the Final Four -- only to lose a heart-breaking 1-point loss in the second round of the NCAAs at Franklin and Marshall when Jeff Monroe's shot at the buzzer bounced off the rim.  I give credit for 2003-04 to both Shaver and Smith.

Smith's Record for the Next 4 Years:
2004-05:  17-10
2005-06:  18-8
2006-07:  19-11, ODAC Champs, NCAA Tournament
2007-08:  15-12
Smith's Record:  69-41 (63% win pct.) -- In 4 years, 1 ODAC championship.

[r.w. mcnickels]

I've always considered 2003-04 a transition year, with a Tiger squad that was recruited, instructed, molded, and developed by Shaver continuing the Shaver era pattern of constant ODAC championships and NCAA participation.  The stars of that 25-5 team were seniors who had developed together under Shaver for 3 years and were playing only their final year under Smith.  The players who remained from the previous year's Final Four team (Jeff Monroe, Brandon Randall, David Willson, Jason Holman, and Mike Thompson) continued to play Shaver's game and demonstrated senior leadership, determined to get back to the Final Four -- only to lose a heart-breaking 1-point loss in the second round of the NCAAs at Franklin and Marshall when Jeff Monroe's shot at the buzzer bounced off the rim.  I give credit for 2003-04 to both Shaver and Smith.

I was just reading this board and wanted to say that the '04 Hampden-Sydney team was one of the better squads I've ever seen play at F&M.  That game was incredible - people still talk about it.  Monroe was the real deal, and it could have gone either way at the end.  Wish those two programs would play sometime in the regular season one of these years.

[ODACHOOPS]

I can see where one would consider 03-04 as a transition year, not disagreeing with that completely, however Smith was still the head coach and they did win the ODAC championship that year so technically it does go under his resume ..meaning he won 2 ODAC championships, made it to 2 NCAA tourney's and won on average 18 games a year (not exactly sure how many they won in 03-04).  Now you're right that was a drop off from the Shaver era, but Smith did play his 2nd and 3rd season's playing mainly freshman and sophomores a lot of minutes! You had Prehmus, Kasse, Edwards, Green and Murray all playing significant minutes and no one was older then a Sophomore.  I say that because Smith had a very young team in those years and in my opinion played in a much tougher ODAC and still managed to win 18ish games a year.   

I know it is still a looong year and I hope and believe the Tigers can get rolling soon and make this another memorable year as appose to a "transition year."