MBB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[donho]

odac1225
    You may be correct. Time will tell. It would be e very nice honor for him.

[matty]

It's disappointing to see ODAC fans that know the game genuinely wish the Marlins to lose.  I understand not enjoying their style of play.  I even understand objecting to the attitudes of individual players.  I don't, however, feel it reasonable to wish losses on a team that has represented the conference through a National Championship and a National Runner-Up.  The ODAC is respected more nationally today than they have been in the 10 years I've been following the league.  Ben Strong and the improved play throughout the conference deserves partial credit.  However, the variable that has driven our conference forward into the national spotlight the most has been the Marlins making back to back championship appearances and the heroics of Adair and Balenga.  When I come across basketball fans that happen to know of the ODAC, these are the events and names I hear.

I'm not making this point to convince everyone to love Virginia Wesleyan.  Rather, I would only hope that ODAC fans would respect the team.  I would never route against an ODAC team in postseason play, let alone the team that has recently brought the conference further respect and notoriety.  It's disappointing that other so-called ODAC fans can do so.  I can assure you that the Virginia Wesleyan campus, students and faculty alike, would have been pulling for any ODAC teams in the coming weeks... thugs or not.      

I guess conference loyalty isn't important to some.  In some cases it doesn't even appear to be as important as loyalty to fun teams to watch.  I don't agree but to each his own.  

Here's to being an ODAC fan.  Go GC and VWC!

Amen brother! Even though its kind of a moot argument. Its hard to pull for a rival. You don't see UNC fans pulling for Duke. You don't see true redskins fans pulling for the cowboys. i guess it stretches to the d3 level as well.
As for the "thuggish" qualities being attributed to vwc, i think its just a clash of differing styles of play thats all. I think it has more to do with the culture of the area. It is well known that vwc hasn't been around nearly as long as many of the other schools in the odac so where other odac schools may have more financial wiggleroom to recruit players from various areas, vwc does not. So its not financially conducive for vwc to go out of the state to recruit players. So macedo has to find a niche somewhere else. And he has...there's a wealth of talent in the hampton roads area. I know other odac schools are more upper middle class/wealthy driven areas/institutions and thats fine. That's what makes them great and prestigious colleges and universities. VWC has made a niche getting players from hampton roads who more or less may come from a different place. you can call it whatever you want 'the hood' or the city or whatever. I think it amazing that macedo has been able take lower income kids and say hey' here's an opportunity to get a degree and play some great college basketball if you're willing to work hard for it. and from experience i know its been like pulling teeth at times for coach to get these kids to work hard everyday on the court and in the classroom but they're making strides and its a beautiful thing when you see a kid like adair or balenga or carlton get the picture. so God Bless em when they step on that court they want to play the game with a little fire and swagger.  Best of luck to Guilford and of course the Marlins in the 'Dance.

[3sdown]

GP05--

I suppose your comments are directed at my comments.  Again I do not wish them harm.  And I did state that I do not wish them to win.  Perhaps I was a little too strong in my statement.  I want them to represent the ODAC well and win b/c it makes the entire conference look better.  However, I do stand my comment that I would not go see them play and I would not and will not actively root and support them.  Just me...Take it however you want!

I hope Short makes the Top 10 Backcourt Players List, but I think it is high unlikely. 


 

[odacfan1225]

I agree it is probably unlikely short makes it but I honestly (biased or not) would take him over any other.  Effort is never a question with him.  And we can all agree the ODAC is a great great confrence and to be named its poy is an honor so i think he should at least be considered.

[Pat Coleman]

I am sure he'll be considered. With 41 conferences, though, it isn't possible that every conference MVP makes the All-American team, even though we go five teams deep.

[Brian Hamilton]

GP05, Matty and other Fish Fans,

I didn't say anything the other night after VWC beat HSC because I did not feel it was appropriate at the time; however, now that the discussion of VWC and people rooting for them has begun, I believe that these comments are appropriate.  Over the years, VWC has earned a reputation as "Thugs from the Beach."  I, myself, have tried to give them benefit of the doubt.  Over the past 6 years, numerous posters have commented on player's antics during games.  For instance, sticking tongues out to showboat, gloating after making big shots, getting in people's faces, etc.  Over these same six years, I can only remember this happening when I watched VWC once.  That was Adair's senior year when VWC played at HSC.  Adair did the tongue thing.  Another huge disappointment was VWC's response when they lost in the National Championship game.  Since Adair's senior year, I have heard very few comments about this type of behavior.  I am not saying that this was Adair's fault, just that I think that Macedo made a conscious effort to root out this type of behavior to improve the image of his program.  Unfortunately, I saw this type of behavior in Salem again this weekend.  In the VWC-HSC game, Travis Meyers, twice, made either comments or gestures toward HSC players after hitting big 3-pointers.  I understand that the game is emotional, but there is no place for that.  What most surprised me was the officials gave him a warning the first time and then Macedo a warning the second time.  HSC fans were understandably upset when Karlis Trops later got a technical (without a warning) after he was demonstrative after a big block on McDuffie (I believe).  The officials did not cost HSC that game, but the antics did cause me to lose a little respect for VWC.

I would also like to point out that the ODAC's rise actually began with HSC.  Their appearance in the 1999 championship game was the beginning of prominence for the ODAC.  They then followed that up with another appearance in 2003.  HSC's successes (I beleive) helped other schools (like VWC) to recruit better players and improved the conference overall.  VWC then took the conference to the next level and brought home the championship.  Don't forget that it takes years for a conference to establish a reputation.  One National Championship, by one team in a conference does not gain that conference respect.  It requires a number of teams being competitive on the national level for a number of years.  Thus far, the ODAC has had GC, HSC, RMC, and VWC (listed alphabetically to avoid bias) make some noise nationally with Roanoke occassionally being in the conversation.

As far as this year's tourney goes, I do hope that both GC and VWC represent the ODAC well.  By this I mean that they both play well and act in a sportsmanlike manner.  VWC doing well in the tourney isd good for the ODAC beacuse they were, afterall, the 7th seed.  If our 7th seed can beat other conference 1st, 2nd or 3rd seeds, then that speaks well to our conferences overall strength.  That used to be the big knock on the ODAC.  While I will still admit that our bottom 2 are fairly weak (though I think Nunnally will turn Randolph into a good program), I think that the top 9 have become very competitive and that makes for a more interesting conference and hopefully more national recognition.

[Pat Coleman]

I suspect that Dave Macedo did far more for Virginia Wesleyan recruiting than Hampden-Sydney ever did, no offense. HSC might have helped D3nation take Virginia Wesleyan seriously, but Virginia Wesleyan got itself there.

[Brian Hamilton]

I am not disputing that fact Pat, just stating that a player is more willing to play in a conference that has seen some national attention.  Macedo has done a great job of recruiting and his teams have shown that.  Can you prove that HSC and RMC getting national attention for the ODAC had nothing to do with Macedo being able to recruit better players though.  Neither of us can prove either way, but I think everyone would agree that DI players would rather play in the ACC than the CAA or the Liberty League.  I am making a similar statement due to the strength of the ODAC.  Players that may have played at CNU or another USAC school, may have been more been likely to play in the ODAC due a better league reputation.  I never said that HSC was the reason that VWC got recruits, simply that HSC's success helped all other ODAC schools.  I think the increase in talent level league wide is evidence of that.  If you have a reason as to why HSC's and RMC's successes did not help VWC then let me know, but otherwise, you are speculating as much as, if not more than, me.  This is, afterall, a discussion board, and I believe that have some valid points that should not be dismissed just because you believe otherwise.  You get after others for making statements with no basis or fact to back them.

[Pat Coleman]

Can you prove it did?

He pulled players away from a Dixie Conference school, a conference which has never gotten the respect the ODAC has. They didn't go there because Hampden-Sydney beat a team in the Elite Eight, they went there because Virginia Wesleyan got a new facility and got over the hump against CNU.

http://www.d3hoops.com/salem/06/vawesleyan.htm

I'm not speculating as much as drawing on previous interviews and stories I've written in covering Division III basketball.

[Brian Hamilton]

Pat,

I never said I could.  In my original post, I said, "HSC's successes (I beleive) helped other schools (like VWC) to recruit better players and improved the conference overall."  I never claimed that it was the reason that VWC got Brandon Adair or Ton Ton Balenga or any other player.  I just stated that it did help other schools recruit.  I think it goes without saying (and other ODAC regulars can chime in) that the ODAC today is a better conference top to bottom than it was 10-14 years ago.  The question is why?  I simply stated that "I believe" the national success of HSC was part of the answer.  As far as the USAC (the odl Dixie conference) goes, I believe that CNU has played in a few Elite 8's and eliminated the ODAC from the NCAAs a couple of times.  While I will agree that overall the USAC has been a weaker conference, it is unfair to say that they don't have players that could play on some of the ODACs best teams.  Stealing recruits from a lesser conference does not equate to those players being lesser players.  You have experience on your side and you have been around D3 basketball for a long time.  I have been following the ODAC since 1996 and I think I have a little experience in terms of the qulaity of play.  I am not speaking in absolutes, I am simply stating a theory (which I applied to the entire conference not just VWC) that you seem eager to dismiss.  I don't know why, but I will admit that you have some valid points.  Can you do the same?

[Pat Coleman]

Honestly, no, I can't agree. I posted a link to a story that debunks your theory.

I agree that the ODAC is better top to bottom than it was 10-14 years ago. However, I do not think that VWC and Guilford's rise had anything to do with Hampden-Sydney's 1999 trip to the Final Four. I just don't. I think they got better coaches and built themselves up rather than rode someone else's coattails.

You seem to be fishing for credit for HSC that I'm not sure it deserves. HSC deserves credit for building itself up and raising its own level, but not for raising the level of Virginia Wesleyan or Guilford, two programs which have contributed significantly to the overall rise in the ODAC. But that's Tom Palombo and Dave Macedo; it's not Tony Shaver or Hampden-Sydney that did that.

While I will agree that overall the USAC has been a weaker conference, it is unfair to say that they don't have players that could play on some of the ODACs best teams.  Stealing recruits from a lesser conference does not equate to those players being lesser players.

I never said any of this, by the way. Not sure where this is coming from.

[Brian Hamilton]

I remember reading that story after VWC won the National Champioship.  I have been very impressed with how Macedo has built that program and agree that the new facility and starting to win against CNU, RMC, and HSC were huge parts in that process.  I still believe that a conferences' success does have an impact upon the recruiting of all of the school's that are in that conference.  It is fine for you to disagree.  If you truly think that I am ignoring other aspects here then you are not seeing the whole picture.  I am obviously aware that recruiting is a very complicated process that involves many variables such as academic programs, location, facilities, cost (financial aid), or coed vs. single-sex to name a few.  (In fact, you have had to moderate/intervent on a couple of boards for discussions of Public vs. Private.)  To say that conference reputation is not a part of this makes no sense.  I fully believe that VWC's back-to-back National Championship appearances and Guilford's recent successes have helped all ODAC schools to recruit (probably VWC and GC more than others) because student-athletes realize that the conference is competitive nationally.  This helps to lure some potential low DI caliber or DII players to non-scholarship DIII.  I am not making this argument because of HSC, I am making it because it makes intuitive, logical sense to me.  I am sorry if I took your post out of context earlier when you said, "He pulled players away from a Dixie Conference school, a conference which has never gotten the respect the ODAC has."  I replaced "respect" with "lesser conference" in terms of quality.  I know I am just another poster who is trying to "promote his own agenda and his own team" and neither of us is going to convince the other (although if you notice, I have agreed with several of your points), so this will be my last post on this topic.  I have enjoyed having this disagreement with you.

[3sdown]

Just thought I would chime in on the situation...

Immense credit goes to VWC and its coaching staff.  They work hard, recruit talented players, and then perform.  The institution has invested in facilities for the basketball program and the institution geographically is located in a great place to attrach basketball players.  They deserve immmense credit for their success.  In that regards I agree with Pat.

However, I do think that Brian has a valid point.  The ODAC as a league from top to bottom has drastically improved.  First, in the 1990s HSC dominated the league pushed other schools to improve resources dedicated to basketball, facilities, recruiting efforts, and overall coaching.  Roanoke and RMC were present in the discussion in the 1990s, but never really could get over the bubble, but HSC pushed the ODAC into the conscience of many nationally in my opinion and definitely regionally.  However, RMC was making the NCAA tournament consistently in the late 1990s, which established a bipolar power within the ODAC in the late 1990s.  As a response to this dominance by HSC other programs were pushed to improve resources for basketball.  In particular, RMC responded to HSC success by increasing recruiting efforts and financial aid in particular.  (This did not only occur b/c of basketball but multiple sports.)  RMC was also invigorated by a young coach (Rhoades) that pushed innovations in recruiting within ODAC.  VWC (with Macedo) then made a push.  They invested in a young, energetic coach and new facilities.  Several other institutions did the same...EMU's gym and the improvements at Crenshaw for RMC come to mind as well.  Then comes along Guilford as well with a better, more consistent coaching staff that has made inroads with recruiting.  (Not sure about facilities b/c haven't been there in a while). 

My overall point is that institutions and programs had to respond to the success of HSC (and perhaps RMC) in the 1990s.  Particular institutions to do this in regards to performance (but also with facilities, resources, and recruiting) are VWC and Guilford.  HSC has backtracked a little...Less consistency in the coaching staff and a temporary slide in facilities (which I think is being improved currently).  Others "lower" in the pecking order right now have done this as well, such as EMU.  When you look at the ODAC currently this is the way I see it:

4 Top Notch Programs--Guilford, HSC, RMC, and VWC.  All have had tremendous success and have tremendous potential within the ODAC on a year to year basis.  (HSC has slid a little bit recently, but I think that is b/c of the lack of consistency in coaching and downgrading facilities.  I think this will be improved over the next couple of years.)  All of these are PROGRAMS and have national attention.  (Note: In the 1990s and early 21st Century there were arguablly only 2 (RMC and HSC) Top-Notch Programs with Roanoke involved in the discussion at times.) 

2 Solid Programs--Bridgewater and Roanoke.  Roanoke has been solid and some years could be argued to be in the "Top Notch" Programs, but aren't consistent enough for whatever reason.  Bridgewater was always there with Leatherman and appears to be headed in the right direction with the new coach.  Both of these schools may need to do some investment in facilities.  And Roanoke needs to perhaps be thinking about a succession plan for Moir.  Not sure how long before he retires?  Regardless, in my mind these two schools have Programs and their solid. 

2 Solid Recent Teams--EMU and Washington & Lee.  EMU appears to be on the rise with new facilities and a solid head coach.  If they can find some more resources for a full-time assistant watch-out.  Washington & Lee also has improved drastically since the late 1990s (early 21st Century) with consistent coaching and the ability to maintain players on their squad.  Washington & Lee may need to improve facilities some to stay competitive with the schools it "ought" to be recruiting against throughout the country.  Not programs yet in my mind, but on their way. 

3 Bottom Feeders--Emory & Henry, Lynchburg, and Randolph.  Lynchburg has a good new coach that should be successful at recruiting.  Overall facilities may be an issue, but I think improvement will be seen here in the next couple of years if the coach stays.  Randolph came onto the scene and appears to be in the same boat as Lynchburg.  Curious, if anyone knows about the facilities at Randolph?  Be interesting to see who wins this battle out of the bottom in the Hill City.  Emory & Henry has tradition, but not sure where they are headed...Hard to tell.

Overall, the health of the ODAC is great.  And yes HSC (and perhaps slightly RMC) has pushed others and these schools (VWC, Guildford, and others) have responded to make ODAC Basketball stronger.  (Additionally, regionally, Christopher-Newport University pushed VWC (and indirectly RMC) to improve its facilities and recruiting as well.  Lets also admit that some of these schools have created "stresses" within the ODAC as well in regards to academics.  Not all of these schools always can compete against one another for the same kids b/c of different academic standards/rules at schools.  This is not a criticism, but reality.   
     

[tigerfanalso]

Brian

I agree with you 100%. The success of HSC & RMC (back in the day) forced other ODAC coaches to recruit harder & and to recruit better players in order to keep up & catch up. VWC and GC have certainly done that. The better a conference is top to bottom and the more success schools from a conference have at the national level, certainly contributes to recruiting successes for all schools in that conference.

I think that it what you saying, and I certainly agree. In fact two of the best Coaches ever in the ODAC told me that very thing about 10 years ago.  


Good luck to GC and VWC in the tourney. Play well and enjoy the ride !!!!

[ODACHOOPS]

Brian I COMPLETELY agree with you and that H-SC's early success starting with the 1999 national title game most certainly helped ODAC schools recruit better players. In no way is it the only reason or the biggest reason, but it without a doubt has played a role and helped teams recruit if only for the simple fact that:

It made schools realize that they need to hire coaches with the same drive and dedication towards recruiting and making the effort to get better players in order to compete with the HSC's and R-MC's.

As for the whole "thugs from the beach" conversation, to defend VWC and say they aren't that or that they don't act and behave in "thuggish" ways is ridiculous. They are hands down the most trash talking, unsportsmanlike team in the ODAC. How can you respect a team that over the years has flicked off players and fans during games, started scuffles during pregame warmups by strolling onto the opponents' side of the court and have never played one minute of one game without running their mouth and bobbing their head. I'm sure other posters or individuals that were at this past weekend's tourney saw this. Sorry matty "respectful" is the last word I would use to describe them and I can understand why people have negative feelings towards them. 

To address an earlier post, it has NOTHING to do with budget and them having to stay within the Hampton Roads area to recruit and EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they have lower academic standards and can get just about anyone into their school. VWC can recruit and get players that most other ODAC schools can't even look at let alone recruit due to the academic standards. I guarantee you that there have been few occasions when Macedo has recruited a player that is also being heavily recruited by the likes of Washington and Lee, R-MC or Hampden-Sydney. He has a much larger talent pool from which to recruit due to the fact that he can get kids with lower grades, and I'm sure that ODAC schools from top to bottom would drool at the chance to recruit and score some of the kids he can! Obviously there is a disparity (by just looking on the court) at the amount of athletes that VWC has as opposed to other ODAC teams. My point is that I would bet he seldom finds himself competing against other ODAC schools for players, a huge advantage. I know for a fact that R-MC, Roanoke and H-SC on a yearly basis all are in heated recruiting battles for the same players, something VWC doesn't have to worry about.